Arriva Rail North DOO

[pemma]

That is absolutely loads of time to make a booking for a car or hotel. Still use it even if the strike is called off, you may find the variety helps with the humdrum of a commute.

Even when it's the last working day before Christmas or before Easter? Both dates the RMT have been known to call strikes.

 

[pemma]

Then take the temporary work while looking for something else.

That's exactly what I do. However, there aren't as many temporary roles as permanent ones.

 

[AlterEgo]

Read what I said - I said most people can but they don't have to. Can the store manager in a supermarket justify why they are paid more than the cleaner in the same store? Of course they can. Arguing they can't would be ridiculous. What about the store manager of the supermarket earning more than a train cleaner? Of course they can. What about the store manager earning more than a station ticket office clerk? Again they can. What about the train driver earning more than the store manager? Harder to justify and it seems train drivers don't even want to bother trying. Then what about jobs which pay more than the store manager but less than a train driver.

Why don't I have a proper job? Those who voted on Brexit caused market uncertainty and the company I was working for lost contracts as they moved to low cost providers use to the uncertainty and due to the same uncertainty other similar companies aren't recruiting as much as they were pre the EU referendum. There's plenty of jobs which I could do but unless they are temporary roles I get rejected for them because I'm overqualified, over experienced or both. They don't want someone who they think will move to a better role at another company at the earliest opportunity. See unlike you I can justify my arguments rather than resorting to attack because you can't defend - exactly what I posted about earlier.

You can't justify anything, you're just salty as hell that train drivers are paid a very good wage.

The drivers on here are likely fed up of poorly paid people asking why they earn what they do, because there's usually an undertone to each post. You want drivers to explain *to you* why they're paid so much, as if they owe you some sort of personal explanation, when in fact the reasons the job attracts that rate of pay are plain for anyone to see with a bit of research.

The only thing that matters is whether the employee and employer mutually agree a salary. Train drivers negotiate their salaries collectively. The market determines the value of their labour, including factors like the time it takes to train them, how difficult they are to replace, the criticality of their work and the scarceness of their qualifications.

I'm not going to believe that the above is news to the forum's second most prolific poster.

Naturally, your own efforts to secure stable employment are of course, nothing to do with you and the blame lies entirely elsewhere. How convenient.

 

[Bromley boy]

I asked a few months ago if drivers could justify their salary level and have not seen one post properly justify the salary of drivers and if anyone asks why they earn so much it seems drivers gang up and attack that person because they are unable to justify their salary. Obviously if you cant defend then attack is the only option!

As I recall, people responded to you. There are a number of reasons: enormous responsibility (above all); length of training; inelastic supply of drivers etc. are all factors. I’m not sure why you think anyone owes you a justification of their earnings.

I can honestly say, as someone who earned rather more more in professional roles before joining the railway, I don’t think the job I do now is in any way overpaid given the responsibility (in fact I’m underpaid as my TOC is now off the pace in terms of earnings).

Ok you don’t need stellar academics to be a train driver, but equally quite a few people who have strong academics can’t hack the role, so that means absolutely nothing.

Of course they can. What about the store manager earning more than a station ticket office clerk? Again they can. What about the train driver earning more than the store manager? Harder to justify and it seems train drivers don't even want to bother trying.

Utter rubbish. What does store manager even mean? The bloke who runs a corner shop or the person in charge of Harrods. You evidently have a very naive understanding of the job market. Maybe a lot of drivers on here don’t feel they need to justify their earnings to someone on the Internet who has admitted they themselves are unemployed! The irony.

I know quite a few people from my former life who earn a great deal of money (if you think train drivers are overpaid these guys’ salaries would really make your eyes water!) Do I think they’re overpaid or resent them for it? Certainly not. There’s more to life than earnings.

A word of advice - I suggest you stop fixating on what others earn. Internalising bitterness and jealousy will only harm you in the long run.

Why don't I have a proper job? Those who voted on Brexit caused market uncertainty and the company I was working for lost contracts as they moved to low cost providers use to the uncertainty and due to the same uncertainty other similar companies aren't recruiting as much as they were pre the EU referendum.

We are in a time of record employment and you supposedly work (or worked) in one of the most bouyant, well paid sectors of the economy. If you can’t find work the problem is likely to be with you.

I suggest you stop blaming the unions, Brexit voters, overpaid train drivers, and try and improve your own lot in life.

 

[pemma]

You can't justify anything

You're of the opinion no-one can justify why they are paid more than anyone else and expect people to believe that? :roll:

Naturally, your own efforts to secure stable employment are of course, nothing to do with you and the blame lies entirely elsewhere. How convenient.

My opinion of train drivers hasn't changed as a result of being employed or unemployed. One of the senior manager's husbands at my last place of work was a train driver who went around boasting that he got paid £50k for doing **** all. (He might even have an account on here but I don't know if he has or not.) When people asked why did he get paid so much his response was "Oh it's just because there's a chance someone might jump in front of your train because in the unlikely event of that happening it would be really traumatic."

 

[pemma]

I suggest you stop blaming the unions, Brexit voters, overpaid train drivers, and try and improve your own lot in life.

Outside the pink bubble the railways live inside we had a recession in 2008, hadn't properly recovered from it when some halfwits voted for Brexit because they thought it would make things better. Anyone who thinks it's easy for anyone these days is wrapped up too tightly in cotton wool.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're of the opinion no-one can justify why they are paid more than anyone else and expect people to believe that? :roll:

Well, no, they can't. Not effectively. I certainly couldn't tell you exactly why I earn what I do and why my job's worth more than that job.

Mostly because it's a very rude question to ask.

My opinion of train drivers hasn't changed as a result of being employed. One of the senior manager's husbands at my last place of work was a train driver who went around boasting that he got paid £50k for doing **** all. When people asked why did he get paid so much his response was "Oh it's just because there's a chance someone might jump in front of your train because in the unlikely event of that happening it would be really traumatic."

Oh Lord...

And I note from your explanation that the driver wasn't able to properly articulate why they were paid £50,000 a year.

Why are you obsessed with this?

@Bromley boy gave you a concise answer to why drivers are paid what they're paid back in February. Did you forget about that?

Why do you keep asking for individual driver members to explain *to you* why they're paid so much? It's none of your business.

 

[Bromley boy]

My opinion of train drivers hasn't changed as a result of being employed or unemployed. One of the senior manager's husbands at my last place of work was a train driver who went around boasting that he got paid £50k for doing **** all. (He might even have an account on here but I don't know if he has or not.) When people asked why did he get paid so much his response was "Oh it's just because there's a chance someone might jump in front of your train because in the unlikely event of that happening it would be really traumatic."

So you base your opinion of an entire job role on one person.

(He was probably winding you up when he saw you seething with envy).

Outside the pink bubble the railways live inside we had a recession in 2008, hadn't properly recovered from it when some halfwits voted for Brexit because they thought it would make things better. Anyone who thinks it's easy for anyone these days is wrapped up too tightly in cotton wool.

As a half wit overpaid train driver who voted for Brexit, I’m enjoying this thread rather too much.

Do you want some salt and vinegar to go with the mile high chip on your shoulder?

 

[6Gman]

You're of the opinion no-one can justify why they are paid more than anyone else and expect people to believe that? :roll:



My opinion of train drivers hasn't changed as a result of being employed or unemployed. One of the senior manager's husbands at my last place of work was a train driver who went around boasting that he got paid £50k for doing **** all. (He might even have an account on here but I don't know if he has or not.) When people asked why did he get paid so much his response was "Oh it's just because there's a chance someone might jump in front of your train because in the unlikely event of that happening it would be really traumatic."

Anecdote is not evidence.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Outside the pink bubble the railways live inside we had a recession in 2008, hadn't properly recovered from it when some halfwits voted for Brexit because they thought it would make things better. Anyone who thinks it's easy for anyone these days is wrapped up too tightly in cotton wool.

You really are a bitter man.

Jealous of anyone who you think is below you “halfwits who voted for Brexit” etc

I drive 93 miles each way, after doing a 12 hr shift - am I bitter and jealous of people who live 20 minutes from their home and earn drivers wages? No.

You move where the work is, people walked miles and miles 100 yrs ago to find work. There seems to be a view that unless you can find work on “your” (not you personally, in society) doorstep then there is no work.

 

[LowLevel]

You really are a bitter man.

Jealous of anyone who you think is below you “halfwits who voted for Brexit” etc

I drive 93 miles each way, after doing a 12 hr shift - am I bitter and jealous of people who live 20 minutes from their home and earn drivers wages? No.

You move where the work is, people walked miles and miles 100 yrs ago to find work. There seems to be a view that unless you can find work on “your” (not you personally, in society) doorstep then there is no work.

To be fair, assumption that someone is a male on a railway forum is a dangerous thing to be doing. It's always been a fact since we started a debate that jcollins is, if I recall, female. Use of personal pronouns isn't always necessary!

 

[Tom Quinne]

Fair enough, he/she is a bitter person.

I would assume (again dangerous) that if he/she worked/works in IT they would have the key logic and mental ability to successfully pass the various stages to train driver recruitment, or indeed any technical role in our great industry?

IT is, and always has been an industry that treats is employees with little regard when times are hard.
On the other hand the railway has been, and continues to be a safe haven for people when times are hard on the outside world as it where.

My advice would be get a railway job and stop being so bitter.
Positively engage the people on this forum, who in the main will be more than willing to help with advice if you don't continue to criticise our salary and terms at every opportunity.

A final point, the media is making a great big fuss over the 'Gender Pay Gap' guess what those nasty unions don't allow Male and Female workers to be paid different rates.

Everyone doing the same job (within each company of course) get paid the same, nasty unions.

 

[Bromley boy]

I would assume (again dangerous) that if he/she worked/works in IT they would have the key logic and mental ability to successfully pass the various stages to train driver recruitment, or indeed any technical role in our great industry?

I wouldn’t necessarily make that assumption. Some very bright people cock up the assessments/turn out to be colour blind/fail the final driving assessment etc. The salaries on offer ensure that lots and lots of very capable people apply for these roles, from a wide range of backgrounds.

My advice would be get a railway job and stop being so bitter.

They’d need a modicum of people skills, some self awareness, an ability for introspection, a trainable personality etc. I’m not sure any of these qualities are in evidence, based on what we’ve seen so far!

 

[Dave1987]

My answer to people who are bitter towards my salary or the way the railways are has and we always be 'why don't you apply for a job on the railways yourself'. I have never met a single person in real life who berates the salary I earn. The common theme is 'good for you'. Most when I suggest applying to be a train driver say they couldn't stand the shift patterns we do or the concentration levels at the times of day we work. In recent times I have never and probably won't ever recommend anyone applies to become a guard or ticket office clerk anymore though.

 

[pemma]

@Bromley boy gave you a concise answer to why drivers are paid what they're paid back in February. Did you forget about that?

Why do you keep asking for individual driver members to explain *to you* why they're paid so much? It's none of your business.

I've never seen one post on this or any other forum justifying why drivers earn more than people who work in roles paying a bit less than drivers. There's a difference between justifying why someone is more valuable to a business than someone like a warehouse operative for a supermarket and justifying why someone who does a skilled non-managerial role is paid more than many managers in other sectors. Despite @Bromley Boy's feeble effort I answered his questions probing every aspect of what I earned and yet he didn't even think to ask what exactly my role was and even then he complained that I answered them literally e.g. he asked how much I earned in a tax year and I told him exactly that but he wasn't satisfied and claimed I avoided the question because he didn't like the response. I may not know everything about a train driver's role but at least I know what role I'm talking about and not confusing it with a bus driver or a train fitter, @Bromley Boy seemed to make conclusions when not knowing whether the role he was talking about was a front end developer role, a back end developer role, a database developer, a mobile app developer etc.

 

[pemma]

Jealous of anyone who you think is below you “halfwits who voted for Brexit” etc

I recently saw Robert Peston's program talking to the working class who voted for Brexit in the North East. No-one he spoke to understood what would happen as a result of Brexit and it was obvious that they just voted for Brexit because it was anti-establishment and they wanted to stick two fingers up at the politicians in Westminster.

 

[pemma]

Why do you keep asking for individual driver members to explain *to you* why they're paid so much? It's none of your business.

Look back a few posts I pointed out what newspapers (not just tabloids) have pointed out, how much train driver salaries have increased by since BR and how much extra they want for DOO and asked why can't they accept more responsibility (for DOO) without a big pay rise given how much their salaries have already increased. On another forum, in any newspaper letter's page or on a radio phone in that would be a perfectly reasonable question to ask. However, not on here - a few drivers don't like it and start calling you names and posting lies about you. Then you wonder why my posts become impolite! While ASLEF haven't yet got involved in the DOO dispute at Northern, if they were to and called strikes then the reasons for the strike would be my business and the business of everyone who uses Northern trains.

 

[pemma]

A final point, the media is making a great big fuss over the 'Gender Pay Gap' guess what those nasty unions don't allow Male and Female workers to be paid different rates.

You've misunderstood what the issue is. EasyJet have a massive gender pay gap, not because women pilots earn less or because male cabin crews earn more but because most pilots are men and most cabin crews are female and as you'd expect cabin crews earn a lot less than pilots. I'm sure TOCs have a gender pay gap as well given they don't exactly have many women in the better paid roles. I'm not sure the RMT or ASLEF would particularly welcome 'positive discrimination' if their male members lost out because of it and if that was the case they'd be right.

 

[Bromley boy]

I've never seen one post on this or any other forum justifying why drivers earn more than people who work in roles paying a bit less than drivers.

The reasons drivers’ wages are what they are has been pointed out to you numerous times. If you still don’t get it, that’s your problem, I’m afraid.

Mind you, you previously told me that you don’t read posts in full when they’re too difficult for you. So that might explain why you’re still at a loss.

Despite @BromleyBoy's feeble effort I answered his questions probing every aspect of what I earned and yet he didn't even think to ask what exactly my role was and even then he complained that I answered them literally e.g. he asked how much I earned in a tax year and I told him exactly that but he wasn't satisfied and claimed I avoided the question because he didn't like the response.

Yes because I detected a peculiar bitterness and obsession with earnings. I asked you for yours and, lo and behold, you turned out to be long term unemployed.

That explains the chip on your shoulder.

I may not know everything about a train driver's role but at least I know what role I'm talking about and not confusing it was a bus driver or a train fitter, @BromleyBoy seemed to make conclusions when not knowing whether the role he was talking about was a front end developer role, a back end developer role, a database developer, a mobile app developer etc.

Whatever you did, evidently you weren’t very good at it, as you were let go. Maybe you should retrain? I know several people who work in the IT industry in a variety of roles and they’d aren’t exactly struggling for work. If you’re unemployed, the problem is with you.

I suggest you stop digging this hole. You sound more bitter and twisted with every posting you make.

 

[Dave1987]

Whatever you did, evidently you weren’t very good at it, as you were let go. Maybe you should retrain? I know several people who work in the IT industry in a variety of roles and they’d aren’t exactly struggling for work. If you’re unemployed, the problem is with you.

I suggest you stop digging this hole. You sound more bitter and twisted with every posting you make.

I believe a certain right winger on this forum suggested that 'no good people should ever struggle for work' when the whole guards dispute theme was on job losses.....

 

[pemma]

Whatever you did, evidently you weren’t very good at it, as you were let go.

Really? There were 4 rounds of redundancy and I survived the first 3. The final round was to get rid of anyone remaining who did the role I did.

you previously told me that you don’t read posts in full when they’re too difficult for you.

No I said I don't read them in full if they contain too much rubbish e.g. posting opinion expressed as facts. Again you're posting lies about me, what is with you obsession about making up stuff about me? If you don't like my posts you don't have to reply to them or even read them but constantly posting lies just shows you're not a mature adult.

who work in the IT industry

Big industry covering hundreds, if not thousands of roles. If you lost your job as a train driver (presuming that's what you do) what would you think if someone said I know bus fitters who have been made redundant and got new jobs, you must be useless? If you did I don't think you'd appreciate that kind of response.

You seem to believe the government's PR with relation to employment but not their PR relating to DOO or making the railways more cost effective. Why do you trust the Conservatives on one thing and don't trust them on another thing? As many people pointed out on Esther McVey's Twitter account recently a decline in out-of-work benefit claimants does not automatically mean more people in work, especially when so many have been made ineligible for benefits - the government don't count me as unemployed in their statistics yet I didn't have a job to go to today and don't have one to go to tomorrow.

 

[Tom Quinne]

You've misunderstood what the issue is. EasyJet have a massive gender pay gap, not because women pilots earn less or because male cabin crews earn more but because most pilots are men and most cabin crews are female and as you'd expect cabin crews earn a lot less than pilots. I'm sure TOCs have a gender pay gap as well given they don't exactly have many women in the better paid roles. I'm not sure the RMT or ASLEF would particularly welcome 'positive discrimination' if their male members lost out because of it and if that was the case they'd be right.

Pilots pay huge sums of money to train, with the chance of a job at the end - and start on poor salaries circa £40,000 at easyJet I think ?

Cabin crew salaries are discusting BA for example circa £12,000!

You can not compare the two roles, they have very different skills and require different people hence the huge pay gap.

Although male and female pilots earn the same thanks to union membership.

Railway unions are falling overselves to get more women into their represented grades and of course union.


Trade unions in a workplace ensures (generally) we don’t have sports direct slave wages and conditions.

Maybe your just bitter that there isn’t a IT industry union, or you regret entering that field when the going was good?

Rough with the smooth, just don’t hate us for having a secure job with a good salary.

 

[Wychwood93]

My comments yesterday with regards to bitterness would appear to have fallen on somewhat stony ground - 'carry on as before' could be a comedic film title. It appears that Bromley Boy and jcollins do not quite agree on assorted issues - life, the universe and virtually everything else. Why not do a PM and have a meet to have a face to face? You both keep going around in circles and there are a couple of others who are around there as well.

I have nearly done a couple of 'bitter' responses to Bromley Boy but have gathered that tongue and cheek are part of what he (I presume?) does.

As there is a new post to read - perhaps a Bromley/Collins re-match in Vegas I will just post this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even when it's the last working day before Christmas or before Easter? Both dates the RMT have been known to call strikes.

Excuses excuses. Always someone else’s fault. Never yours.

 

[Dave1987]

My comments yesterday with regards to bitterness would appear to have fallen on somewhat stony ground - 'carry on as before' could be a comedic film title. It appears that Bromley Boy and jcollins do not quite agree on assorted issues - life, the universe and virtually everything else. Why not do a PM and have a meet to have a face to face? You both keep going around in circles and there are a couple of others who are around there as well.

I have nearly done a couple of 'bitter' responses to Bromley Boy but have gathered that tongue and cheek are part of what he (I presume?) does.

As there is a new post to read - perhaps a Bromley/Collins re-match in Vegas I will just post this.

If myself as a driver told you that I had been in numerous situations where a guard was invaluable or would have been invaluable would you give my opinion as a driver any thought at all or just cast it off because it does not match with your opinions?

 

[Carlisle]

Cabin crew salaries are discusting BA for example circa £12,000!

You can not compare the two roles, they have very different skills and require different people hence the huge pay gap.
.

Not so, the role of a railway on board catering host/ manager, is very similar in lots of ways to that of many airline cabin crew, although I’ve no idea who’s better paid .

 

[pemma]

Excuses excuses. Always someone else’s fault. Never yours.

Given I know hotels have been fully booked months in advance of the last Friday before Christmas, it's quite absurd to think you could book a hotel a few days in advance when a strike is announced so you don't need to travel if the RMT are willing to consider strikes on such a date (which we know they are from their previous record.) Even if you find one of the few remaining rooms anywhere near the place required it'll cost a fortune at such short notice. It seems the one thing that isn't allowed in this thread is thinking logically. For an example re-read your own post - why the hell would it my fault that the RMT would call a strike on a specific date intended to cause maximum disruption?

 

[Domh245]

Perhaps the Moderators may consider that - too circular. Being newish to this, do I ask? Do they read them all? Locking it might spoil an outbreak of something constructive in relation to the OP - as Union and TOC stuff appears to be going nowhere this side of whenever, then perhaps a temporary lock might be of use? There will always be another thread to lock horns on - from what I have observed there are many out there up for it!

If you want to guarantee a moderator or admin reads it, press the report button (bottom of each and every post) and fill in the box and they'll respond as they see fit. They'll probably put a temporary lock on the thread, clean out all of the handbags and other personal jibes (or put it in a new thread), and then unlock the thread again with a stern warning to keep on topic in place.

 

[pemma]

Maybe your just bitter that there isn’t a IT industry union, or you regret entering that field when the going was good?

Rough with the smooth, just don’t hate us for having a secure job with a good salary.

Like I said already my opinion of train driver salaries was the same when I was in full time employment as it is now. I'm not one of those people who doesn't care about unemployed people unless they are unemployed or who thinks employed people can be screwed over because they are unemployed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given I know hotels have been fully booked months in advance of the last Friday before Christmas, it's quite absurd to think you could book a hotel a few days in advance when a strike is announced so you don't need to travel if the RMT are willing to consider strikes on such a date (which we know they are from their previous record.) Even if you find one of the few remaining rooms anywhere near the place required it'll cost a fortune at such short notice. It seems the one thing that isn't allowed in this thread is thinking logically.

It is most unlikely that even on the day every single hotel available in Manchester where you can travel to your place of employment by bus, Metrolink or a TOC other than Northern would be full. Indeed, I would say it would be unthinkable, when you consider the number of places reasonably nearby (let's say within an hour) that can be reached by TOCs other than Northern.

For an example re-read your own post - why the hell would it my fault that the RMT would call a strike on a specific date intended to cause maximum disruption?

It's not your fault that they are doing that, but it is your responsibility to work around it so you can secure employment as you wish to, and not to just moan about it.