Arriva Rail Northern to be stripped of franchise

[PR1Berske]

This is the fear. Hopefully even the Tory party wouldn't have the front to implement a mini-Beeching programme after getting elected on a 'policy' aspiration of reversing Beeching !

The priority will be to take the franchise away and move from there. If the long term aspiration is to devolve responsibility to the regions then we could be looking at the future of specific routes though that seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[Bovverboy]

The east side of this franchise generally works

I think that might have been a a fair comment a couple of months ago, but, going by what I have been reading on 'Journey check', I would say that things have recently taken a bit of a nosedive on the east side, too.

 

[yorksrob]

The priority will be to take the franchise away and move from there. If the long term aspiration is to devolve responsibility to the regions then we could be looking at the future of specific routes though that seems highly unlikely to me.

They must surely need to review the reducing subsidy profile to have any material effect on the service.

 

[Bovverboy]

TPE always seem ok to me. Granted its 50/50 if the train is on time, but not often delayed by alot and at least they do turn up

Have a look at the tracking websites.

 

[Bantamzen]

That seems unlikely.

This is the fear. Hopefully even the Tory party wouldn't have the front to implement a mini-Beeching programme after getting elected on a 'policy' aspiration of reversing Beeching !

I'm afraid I don't share your confidence. This government has been making plenty of promises the Treasury can't keep. In order to solve some of the problems I fully expect them to axe others. It won't be labelled as such of course, but they could elect to "rationalise" some services to focus on others, then slowly throttle the life out of them & hope nobody remembers.

They must surely need to review the reducing subsidy profile to have any material effect on the service.

This is exactly what the franchise needs, and exactly what won't happen.

 

[Gems]

Let's look at this through factual eyes.

'Arriva Trains North' actually worked well before it was joined at the hip with the dead elephant known as 'First North Western' Arriva wanted to invest in the franchise, they were innovative. They introduced a Leeds - Glasgow service, they introduced loco hauled services, they tried to make what little they had work. You didn't end up with page after page of repairs going back weeks in the repair books. More to the point, the staff actually liked working for them. Then along came Blairs ideas.

Andy Burnham makes me laugh. It was his government that created this nightmare, and nightmare it is. When Arriva wanted to invest, Labour's response was to strip them of the franchise. Not for investment franchise they called it, and now the man who went along with these ideas expects miracles.

But then we come to management.
What sort of management would offer drivers a day off to take whenever they choose? What amazing out of the box thinking that was. In any other industry the person responsible for that would be showered with a P45. So December the 27th was the chosen day of destruction by all who wanted to cause destruction. Notice it didn't happen in the east side. Only the militant west.

Split this franchise and rid us of this old North Western evil. It's now gone beyond a joke. Let Prince Burnham sort it out, it was his party that instigated this mess.

 

[2L70]

TPE always seem ok to me.

And I thought it was only Magpies that were distracted by shiny things.

 

[yorksrob]

This is exactly what the franchise needs, and exactly what won't happen.

It would be like expecting a leopard to change its spots. But the Christmas trees are still up, so we can still hope for a miracle.

 

[achmelvic]

I assume Arriva getting booted out of the franchise will make things easier for DB, wasn't the trouble at Northern one of the issues with their attempts to sell Arriva?

 

[Sceptre]

Shapps could've done something useful, like finally signing off on MAN 15&16 after 1,056 1,422 days, but, alas, he's more concerned with the 2024 election.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I think if I were a politician I'd wait till Northern have all the new trains in service, drivers trained, new recruits passed out and the Pacers withdrawn.
I could then step in claim to save the situation and make political capital.
Although, how they would get the West side crews to contract to work Sundays is open to speculation.
K

By the time that happens most of our politicians will be long retired!

 

[Altfish]

I've been tracking Northern's performance on my line; Manchester to Chester via Altrincham and Northwich, for the last two months. I've only recorded cancellations, not late running and it includes some (not many) planned cancellations.
Based on RTT figures ...
In November out of 1123 services 103 were cancelled - about 80% of which were down to 'Train Crew issues"
In December out of 1048 services 97 were cancelled - again about 80% of which were down to 'Train Crew issues"

Some of the cancellations were NOT Northern's fault but the performance is woeful

 

[Llama]

There was nothing wrong with FNW (which was also a bigger franchise than what's now the west side of Northern) before it was put with ATN to form the old Northern Rail.

Given the same amount of training requirements dumped on them over the last 12 years as the west side has had at regular intervals, the east side would be no better. All the current issues began with the Dec 2008 timetable change which was just as disastrous as May 2018 was, except decisive action was taken in 2008 (driver rest day working was brought back in within a few weeks after a few years without it, then a drivers productivity deal was implemented).

 

[bobblebob]

Trouble with Northern management is they just blame everyone else. Adverse weather conditions, delay in new trains (doesnt matter that even if they were there, few drivers are trained on them), lack of electrification of the line, unprecedented sick leave, too many on annual leave (as a company its your job to make sure you have cover for AL). The list goes on. While im sure some of the reasons are genuine, they dont seem to want to take responsibility for their inept running of the company

 

[Sceptre]

I mean, the Northern and TPE (and even East Coast!) franchises were let on the assumption that Platforms 15 and 16 would be ready for December 2018, the 195s ready for December 2019, and wires through Huddersfield ready for May 2022.

All of those are problems which stem from the DfT.

Remember when Patrick McLoughlin had to overrule the bean-counters who thought that it wasn't worth spending money to not discriminate against wheelchair users?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I have seen rumblings during Christmas Period that Government had already made its mind up to scrap the Arriva Franchise in its current form and was planning on splitting the franchise (as it is too big) into a North East and North West side. They appear to have done the first bit, lets see if the second bit comes to fruition or if that is long term.

Shaps said on TV this morning that he wanted to reduce the number of different organisations, so I'm not sure how that will work?

 

[cactustwirly]

I mean, the Northern and TPE (and even East Coast!) franchises were let on the assumption that Platforms 15 and 16 would be ready for December 2018, the 195s ready for December 2019, and wires through Huddersfield ready for May 2022.

All of those are problems which stem from the DfT.

Remember when Patrick McLoughlin had to overrule the bean-counters who thought that it wasn't worth spending money to not discriminate against wheelchair users?

Were they though? It's been said on here before that Piccadilly 15/16 and TPE Electrification were not part of the franchises.

 

[Howardh]

Immediate thought - good riddance
Sobering thought - whoever replaces them has the exact same problems and issues as Northern has.
Solution - 15/16, widening the Castlefield corridor, a loop round eastern Manchester + more drivers, stock etc.
Timescale - I'll be six feet under.

 

[FishUK]

Short term, no.

But imagine if responsibility is devolved to the Metro Mayors and Rail North/TfN, who suddenly find that they have to choose how little money is given to Preston - Ormskirk because they've got Gtr Manchester commuters to placate.

As a commuter from one Metro Mayor's patch to another, I look forward to getting shafted while being told I'm getting a great deal.

 

[Sceptre]

Were they though? It's been said on here before that Piccadilly 15/16 and TPE Electrification were not part of the franchises.

Bradford to the Airport was supposed to be a headline Northern Connect service, but that's been effectively canned after they couldn't run the pilot Leeds–Oxford Road service without having knock-on effects with the Bolton–Airport service.

 

[FishUK]

TPE always seem ok to me. Granted its 50/50 if the train is on time, but not often delayed by alot and at least they do turn up

Main issue is overcrowding on the Leeds - Manchester line. Rarely get a seat no matter when you travel

Funnily enough I've always found the worst Northern delays that aren't from a non-rail cause (e.g. flooding or line-side fire) are caused by TPE services getting snarled up on the Leeds - Manchester line and causing loads of headaches at Manchester Victoria. The TPE services are allowed to run late with minimal holding at Victoria, but Northern services are lower priority so just get pushed into delay purgatory before being cancelled. There needs to be a cut off where TPE get told "screw it, you're so late you'll have to run behind the stopper (and maybe overtake later). Tough luck."

 

[Robertj21a]

It's a matter of principle.

Why ? - what's the point if others will be no better ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Won't solve anything in the short term.
Arriva have packed the management positions with managers who quite frankly are an embarrassment. In all my years on the railway I have never seen so much disjointed decision making. These people create delays and cancellations. There is no future in stripping a franchise off Arriva if these people get to keep their jobs. Get rid of them.

But even then the problem isn't that simple.
The first mistake was bringing 'First North Western' and 'Arriva Trains North' together in the first place. The old Arriva was actually a good company to work for, then the Germans got a hold of them. It should never have happened, and that was the fault of the last Labour government.
You simply cannot bring two companies together when the workers are on different terms and conditions. It just doesn't work, and what we have now is two opposite poles of the magnet pushing against each other.

I'll say this also. The east side of this franchise generally works, the west is a total basket case. I think we are all now getting fed up over here on the east of crews on the west side blatantly obstructing progress. We are covering their work a lot of the time, and I for one am sick to death of it. Split the franchise and sort that lot out once and for all. We are supposed to be providing a service for the public. You wouldn't think so looking at it.

Well said. The east/west split is ridiculous when you see the differing levels of good/bad performance.

 

[Sceptre]

Funnily enough I've always found the worst Northern delays that aren't from a non-rail cause (e.g. flooding or line-side fire) are caused by TPE services getting snarled up on the Leeds - Manchester line and causing loads of headaches at Manchester Victoria. The TPE services are allowed to run late with minimal holding at Victoria, but Northern services are lower priority so just get pushed into delay purgatory before being cancelled. There needs to be a cut off where TPE get told "screw it, you're so late you'll have to run behind the stopper (and maybe overtake later). Tough luck."

Brighouse, in particular, is a massive casualty of the Manchester snafu. We lost a Leeds direct (replaced with Hull–Halifax and Huddersfield–Interchange) last month (coincidentally, when Interchange–Airport was supposed to start…), and I don't think I've seen the direct we do have be on time for months because it has to give up the signal to the TPE service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Shaps said on TV this morning that he wanted to reduce the number of different organisations, so I'm not sure how that will work?

Neither am I, just saw rumblings. Felt it went along with other posts talking about difference in terms between East and West side.

 

[D365]

Shapps could've done something useful, like finally signing off on MAN 15&16 after 1,056 1,422 days, but, alas, he's more concerned with the 2024 election.

Two new platforms at a station doesn’t get people talking in the same way as stripping a TOC if it’s franchise

 

[Haywain]

maybe one or two headline busting changes to appease the noisiest complaints.

What? Like new trains and the phasing out of Pacers? That must be due for another announcement soon.

 

[jfollows]

Timescale - I'll be six feet under.

Quite possibly, but I sense that many of the changes which need to be made and require on competent management to implement represent an immediate cost with no hope of a return on the investment during the period of the franchise, so if whoever takes over is able to take a more sensible view which will indeed result in improvements over time rather than immediately, so much the better. That's not an excuse for the current management at Northern, which I still view as woeful.

 

[bobblebob]

Funnily enough I've always found the worst Northern delays that aren't from a non-rail cause (e.g. flooding or line-side fire) are caused by TPE services getting snarled up on the Leeds - Manchester line and causing loads of headaches at Manchester Victoria. The TPE services are allowed to run late with minimal holding at Victoria, but Northern services are lower priority so just get pushed into delay purgatory before being cancelled. There needs to be a cut off where TPE get told "screw it, you're so late you'll have to run behind the stopper (and maybe overtake later). Tough luck."

That is problem. The Wakefield - Hudds traim often gets held up just after Mirfield waiting for the late TPE train from Leeds/Dewsbury. Ive been waiting on the train for nearly 10 mins sometimes. Doesnt take much longer for the Northern train to complete its journey, so why hold it up

 

[Snow1964]

Initially it is just a political point scoring exercise

Doesn’t mean that they will be recruiting and training staff to fix shortages by end of week, or that will be adding about 10% to the train orders to enhance the service.

Until money starts being splashed around and some of the pinch points tackled (and I mean actually tackled, not some half hearted suggestion that maybe something in CP7) not really going to see much difference.

A few (very late) trains entering service isn’t a new improvement as was happening anyway.