Arriva to close Aylesbury and High Wycombe depots

[TheGrandWazoo]

But if they thought there was potential - and let's be honest conditions were more favourable 20 years ago - then why abandon their operations?

Reality is Wycombe has not been "goid" territory for a long, long time. Whether it improves or this is another false dawn remains to be seen.

As was stated early in the thread, the Wycombe Bus Co (former Alder Valley ops) were based at Newlands which was due for redevelopment; it was a hellhole of a place as I remember. So Go Ahead would have had the hassle and expense of moving to alternative premises. That MIGHT have prompted Arriva to come forward with an offer that, in that context, may well have been attractive? Another question might be that if Wycombe was such a bag of spanners in 2000, why did Go Ahead then think it worthwhile purchasing Carousel in 2012? As we've seen with Crawley and Guildford, two other former London Country flatspots that Arriva vacated, there is potential to develop operations in areas that were previously written off as basket cases.

Only the most optimistic of souls would say that Wycombe is a diamond in the ruff, just requiring some greater management focus. It has the challenges (as with many SE England towns) of high staff costs/challenges on recruitment and retention as well as high car ownership and traffic congestion. The demands of the topography are an extra consideration but in reality, it is a town that size can (only) support a single depot/operator and the consequent management and admin overhead. This rationalisation will bring some economies of scale. Will it herald a new dawn with a brand new fleet of luxurious B8RLEs replaced every five years? No. Will it depend on a mix of modern cascades, mid life and time expired vehicles, and occasional new vehicles. Probably.

I applaud the engagement of @arrivamatt in explaining some of the detail behind the decision. IMO, it's not the local management or even the opco management that has led to the position of UK Bus contracting at the speed it has - it's more fundamental than that.

 

[Snex]

Go-Ahead to me seem like a progressive company willing to invest and that’s just what Wycombe needs. In the case of hand-me-downs; if the vehicles are maintained then I don’t see an issue. The ex London Mercs they have are in decent condition compared to the newer Arriva models which are quite shocking and it’s the same story all over the country.

Disagree with that mind. GoAhead in it's heartland of the North East is an absolute disgrace and is anything but progressive. Them and Arriva North East really are in competition for second worst recently as both really are as bad as each other.

If they don't see money there, they'll soon be binning it off or begging for money from the councils.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Disagree with that mind. GoAhead in it's heartland of the North East is an absolute disgrace and is anything but progressive. Them and Arriva North East really are in competition for second worst recently as both really are as bad as each other.

If they don't see money there, they'll soon be binning it off or begging for money from the councils.

Go North West /Go North East are not GoAhead's best subsidiaries, I agree.
Their nearby operations in Hants and Dorset (Go South Coast) and Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company are likely a much better indicator of what will happen.

 

[Wolvercoter]

But if they thought there was potential - and let's be honest conditions were more favourable 20 years ago - then why abandon their operations?

Oxford Bus were probably concentrating all their resources into their competition with Stagecoach in Oxford at the time. That's guesswork from me, and starting to go off topic. We'll all wait and see how Oxford Bus Group copes with the market in Wycombe with limited/no competition... time will tell.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Disagree with that mind. GoAhead in it's heartland of the North East is an absolute disgrace and is anything but progressive. Them and Arriva North East really are in competition for second worst recently as both really are as bad as each other.

If they don't see money there, they'll soon be binning it off or begging for money from the councils.

I have to disagree with this. Go North East has declined markedly since the Kevin Carr era. Martijn Gilbert got fixated by daft rebrands and there was a lack of commitment to quality, whilst the closure of Chester le Street depot was shortsighted. Then there was the strike and they have a long way to sort out a business that was neglected whilst various flights of fancy were pursued.

However, to suggest that Go North East is equivalent to Arriva NE? Not even close.

Go North West /Go North East are not GoAhead's best subsidiaries, I agree.
Their nearby operations in Hants and Dorset (Go South Coast) and Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company are likely a much better indicator of what will happen.

Agree on this. The southern ones are generally a lot better though I'd say that Go South West is "patchy"

 

[Goldfish62]

Go North West /Go North East are not GoAhead's best subsidiaries, I agree.
Their nearby operations in Hants and Dorset (Go South Coast) and Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company are likely a much better indicator of what will happen.

Especially as Carousel has the same common management team as Oxford / Thames Travel. I know there are some very dedicated individuals there who will be doing all they can to make it work in High Wycombe.

 

[sturfc]

Especially as Carousel has the same common management team as Oxford / Thames Travel. I know there are some very dedicated individuals there who will be doing all they can to make it work in High Wycombe.

Totally agree, as an occasional user of Carousel services, and area resident, Carousel have managed to develop services, not all have worked of course, but certainly are not stuck in the this is what its always been mentality.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agree on this. The southern ones are generally a lot better though I'd say that Go South West is "patchy"

Is that the old Damory Coaches operation? I'd agree that their network isn't particularly comprehensive down there, but again even worse bus territory than High Wycombe I'd argue.

Especially as Carousel has the same common management team as Oxford / Thames Travel. I know there are some very dedicated individuals there who will be doing all they can to make it work in High Wycombe.

Yep

 

[Goldfish62]

Is that the old Damory Coaches operation? I'd agree that their network isn't particularly comprehensive down there, but again even worse bus territory than High Wycombe I'd argue.

Damory is part Go South Coast. Go South West is Plymouth Citybus / Go Cornwall Bus / Dartline.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is that the old Damory Coaches operation? I'd agree that their network isn't particularly comprehensive down there, but again even worse bus territory than High Wycombe I'd argue.

Damory is part Go South Coast. Go South West is Plymouth Citybus / Go Cornwall Bus / Dartline.

@Goldfish62 is correct that Damory is part of GSC. GSW is the Devon and Cornwall ops; arguably setting up a brand new operation with many new vehicles, recruiting staff and setting up new operating centres has soaked up a lot of management time and the ops down there are a bit variable but not bad.

Sounds like Arriva are acting very sensibly with Go Ahead to manage the transition so hopefully they'll be able to get sufficient drivers to go across and that service quality will be maintained. Drafting in a balanced set of cascades will help too.

 

[Snex]

Go North West /Go North East are not GoAhead's best subsidiaries, I agree.
Their nearby operations in Hants and Dorset (Go South Coast) and Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company are likely a much better indicator of what will happen.

Yeah agreed, no arguments from me.

I have to disagree with this. Go North East has declined markedly since the Kevin Carr era. Martijn Gilbert got fixated by daft rebrands and there was a lack of commitment to quality, whilst the closure of Chester le Street depot was shortsighted. Then there was the strike and they have a long way to sort out a business that was neglected whilst various flights of fancy were pursued.

However, to suggest that Go North East is equivalent to Arriva NE? Not even close.

Don't want to derail the thread too much as it's about down South but personally, I think Feetham has come in and is basically doing exactly what he done at Arriva North East and the exact same problems are blighting GoNorthEast lately. Fleet availability, fleet age, breakdowns, lack of bus cleanliness, staff cuts, lack of staff morale etc, especially since the strike. I could be describing Arriva North East here as well as they don't deserve any compliments either mind, very much of the same.

If this was another company, I'd say they were streamlining the business to get shot of it, it's basically become a dumping ground of whatever bus stock everyone else doesn't want already.

 

[RELL6L]

Looking at Arriva in High Wycombe today it appears that almost everything which moves is out on the road, even though it is a Sunday service. Like yesterday there are 6 deckers out, normally lucky to get one or two on a Sunday. There are several Citaros parked up in the naughty area at the depot, I wonder if they are to be withdrawn or transferred soon. Versas too and 4212, 5457 and 3580 to be seen, the latter may be just parked. I should add that the Sunday allocation is relatively high as drivers seem to stick with their vehicles all day so they have gaps - the schedule is quite a work of art!

It appears 2958 was trying to beat the record for a run on the 800, it left Reading 2 minutes late but arrived at High Wycombe 17 minutes early! I don’t think it was out of service as it followed the loop in Marlow. Its now out on the 7 and (at 17.37) is 25 minutes early!

I know it’s half term tomorrow but I suspect the runout may be several vehicles short.

 

[joieman]

London buses have the ramp at the centre doors.
Removing the centre door is relatively easy, but moving the ramp to the front door can sometimes be problematic ... it's all to do with the strength of the underlying structure.
Remember that the stairs open towards the centre door space, and ensuring that a standard wheelchair will fit along the gangway all have to be considered.
Nothing is impossible, but for a 12 year old bus may be excessively expensive.

But not impossible, as the Midlands had a glut of ex-London DAF ALX400s with the centre doors removed. (I quite miss them.)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't want to derail the thread too much as it's about down South but personally, I think Feetham has come in and is basically doing exactly what he done at Arriva North East and the exact same problems are blighting GoNorthEast lately. Fleet availability, fleet age, breakdowns, lack of bus cleanliness, staff cuts, lack of staff morale etc, especially since the strike. I could be describing Arriva North East here as well as they don't deserve any compliments either mind, very much of the same.

If this was another company, I'd say they were streamlining the business to get shot of it, it's basically become a dumping ground of whatever bus stock everyone else doesn't want already.

I think you're conflating eras. When Nigel Featham was in charge at Arriva North East, there was an influx of new vehicles (there had to be - DDA was approaching) and he introduced the MAX concept as well as extending Sapphire. I can't recall any major cuts nor depot closures unlike his predecessor Jonathan May who closed three depots on one day. Spending some time in Durham is enough to compare the two operations - GNE ain't stellar and does need TLC (and investment) but it's not as rudderless or bereft of care and attention as Arriva.

Back on topic....Go Ahead are usually light touch and trust their local operational and management teams to get things right. Unfortunately, the Arriva management teams appear to have been hamstrung by centrally controlled expectations on returns and restrictions on capital spend. We shall see how Carousel manage the new world and we should expect the odd teething problem. Regarding @RELL6L thoughts, I'm sure that Arriva will try to ensure that the wind down is managed professionally - to be fair, they did a good job in exiting Guildford even if there was a concern that it would fall apart once it was announced. Working with Carousel will help that - Aylesbury might be more challenging though hopefully Redline/Red Rose are similarly minded to take on staff etc.

 

[overthewater]

Is it know yet what buses will be drafted into the area to help replace the routes?

 

[baza585]

Go North West /Go North East are not GoAhead's best subsidiaries, I agree.
Their nearby operations in Hants and Dorset (Go South Coast) and Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company are likely a much better indicator of what will happen.

If the operation in Southampton is anything to go by, careful what you wish for.

My local route is run mainly by ex London Optare bodied Tridents, which are so unreliable that breakdowns are routine, drivers don't turn engines off at terminal points or driver changes because they fear they won't restart and there are huge gaps in headway.

I'm hoping they might get cascaded to Wycombe!! We were told they were only temporary until new E400MMCs came, but those have all been delivered and the Optares are being repainted!

 

[Mgameing123]

But if they thought there was potential - and let's be honest conditions were more favourable 20 years ago - then why abandon their operations?

Reality is Wycombe has not been "goid" territory for a long, long time. Whether it improves or this is another false dawn remains to be seen.



See above. I suspect in a year or two's time there will be a thread on here about how poor the services are in Wycombe with clapped out vehicles a lack of interest and the inevitable cry of "poor management".

We all know this will happen. The Big 4 are ready to ruin services once they become the monopoly.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We all know this will happen. The Big 4 are ready to ruin services once they become the monopoly.

I suggest that you head to Bournemouth or Crawley and see how much they've been ruined. Or head to Guildford to see how much that's been ruined too? Perhaps the most obvious one is Southern Vectis... ruined with those frequent modern buses and late night services

When you look at the other two of the big 4, First and Arriva, they have followed similar paths albeit for different reasons. Centralised corporate control and a lack of investment. I have concerns on Stagecoach but less so Go Ahead.

I'm not certain why you're not grasping this but Wycombe is not a big town. It's got enough trade to sustain one major depot/operator not two - it could barely do so 40 years ago and definitely not now. Competition was a big drain on both Go Ahead and Arriva which is why they stepped back from it a few years ago.

Or look at it another way... the presence of Carousel there hasn't exactly inspired Arriva to be an exemplar operation, has it?

 

[hst43102]

We all know this will happen. The Big 4 are ready to ruin services once they become the monopoly.

Why are you so concerned about monopolies on services in a relatively minor regional town? I can list at least half a dozen larger towns across the south of England which have a monopoly operator and none of the problems associated with Arriva in Wycombe - Bournemouth, Southampton, Brighton, Reading, Milton Keynes all come to mind.
Whilst Go-Ahead isn't a perfect operator by any means they are much better than First, let alone Arriva. Generalising all four operators under one title appears to be misleading and uninformed.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Damory is part Go South Coast. Go South West is Plymouth Citybus / Go Cornwall Bus / Dartline.

Makes sense.

@Goldfish62 is correct that Damory is part of GSC. GSW is the Devon and Cornwall ops; arguably setting up a brand new operation with many new vehicles, recruiting staff and setting up new operating centres has soaked up a lot of management time and the ops down there are a bit variable but not bad.

Sounds like Arriva are acting very sensibly with Go Ahead to manage the transition so hopefully they'll be able to get sufficient drivers to go across and that service quality will be maintained. Drafting in a balanced set of cascades will help too.

Yeah I'm not surprised - the similar example with tranche 1 Bee Network had teething issues, albeit on a larger scale.
Good to hear Arriva are a
making the transition as smooth as possible, and I expect Carousel will be off to a decent start.

Yeah agreed, no arguments from me.

It's high time Wycombe deserved some decent bus service.

If the operation in Southampton is anything to go by, careful what you wish for.

My local route is run mainly by ex London Optare bodied Tridents, which are so unreliable that breakdowns are routine, drivers don't turn engines off at terminal points or driver changes because they fear they won't restart and there are huge gaps in headway.

I'm hoping they might get cascaded to Wycombe!! We were told they were only temporary until new E400MMCs came, but those have all been delivered and the Optares are being repainted!

Never had an issue with Bluestar when I've visited Southampton - maybe I was just lucky. To be fair, anything is an improvement on the way Arriva in Wycombe has been for years. I don't think any one route could be relied on at all.

 

[Mgameing123]

Why are you so concerned about monopolies on services in a relatively minor regional town? I can list at least half a dozen larger towns across the south of England which have a monopoly operator and none of the problems associated with Arriva in Wycombe - Bournemouth, Southampton, Brighton, Reading, Milton Keynes all come to mind.
Whilst Go-Ahead isn't a perfect operator by any means they are much better than First, let alone Arriva. Generalising all four operators under one title appears to be misleading and uninformed.

Reading is a council owned monopoly and that’s a good thing. Milton Keynes has terrible public transport.
Carousel is already a bad company with unreliable services which end up always cancelled.

Why are you so concerned about monopolies on services in a relatively minor regional town? I can list at least half a dozen larger towns across the south of England which have a monopoly operator and none of the problems associated with Arriva in Wycombe - Bournemouth, Southampton, Brighton, Reading, Milton Keynes all come to mind.
Whilst Go-Ahead isn't a perfect operator by any means they are much better than First, let alone Arriva. Generalising all four operators under one title appears to be misleading and uninformed.

I also have a general hate to private bus operators running public transport services to turn a profit. It’s very inefficient and ends up with a fragmented network which runs buses where demand is high and forgets about the smaller low demand routes which still need a service.

 

[GusB]

Reading is a council owned monopoly and that’s a good thing. Milton Keynes has terrible public transport.
Carousel is already a bad company with unreliable services which end up always cancelled.

Would it not be better to wait until the new services have bedded in before writing the new operator off completely? I'm also rather puzzled as to why it makes any difference to someone who doesn't actually live in the UK!

I also have a general hate to private bus operators running public transport services to turn a profit. It’s very inefficient and ends up with a fragmented network which runs buses where demand is high and forgets about the smaller low demand routes which still need a service.

The private vs publicly owned operator debate has been done to death on many occasions and this thread certainly isn't the place for it.

 

[Mgameing123]

Would it not be better to wait until the new services have bedded in before writing the new operator off completely? I'm also rather puzzled as to why it makes any difference to someone who doesn't actually live in the UK!


The private vs publicly owned operator debate has been done to death on many occasions and this thread certainly isn't the place for it.

I used to live in area so I do care about how public transport is in that area.

 

[joieman]

While Arriva London may have a surplus of buses they could have used in Wycombe and Aylesbury, in reality there is a process that takes time when transferring buses out of London ops to regional ops (e.g. removing middle door, removing manual blinds). Plus Arriva may be reluctant to transfer full height DDs to their regional ops as it reduces the routes they can be used on, hence why Arriva purchase low height DDs for their non-London operations

Somewhat off-topic, but why don't Arriva also purchase low-height double-decker buses in London as well?

 

[greenline712]

Somewhat off-topic, but why don't Arriva also purchase low-height double-decker buses in London as well?

To briefly answer your question . . . TfL specify full-height deckers for all contracts . . . if there is a physical restriction on a route, then it becomes single deck!!
Reduced-height deckers are not permitted.

 

[Parebunks]

A timetable has appeared for Oxford Bus's new 280, running as announced every 30 mins for most of the day, but carrying on a bit later than at present, and with new N280 journeys on Fridays and Saturdays. Unfortunately daytime services look to be curtailed at Speedwell Street in Oxford, losing the station connection. This seems as I expected to tie into changes to the 400, which is down to every 30 minutes to Wheatley, and weirdly no longer seems to include the Botley/Harcourt Hill side of the route at all, although I suspect this may be a glitch. Overall this may end up a net positive for the Thame corridor, the new offering seems better matched to demand.

 

[Mgameing123]

What would Redline actually take over other than the 2 new route changes.

 

[WM Bus]

Is it know yet what buses will be drafted into the area to help replace the routes?

Go Ahead have acquired 4799-4829 from National Express. Which are leaving National Express this month.

Not the first, 4466 & 4467 were the first, but yes, all that batch will go this month. The lease on them expires this month and Dawson Group have sold them all to Go-Ahead group. They are due to be split between Go Midlands & Go South

Withdrawn Vehicles - Page 135

Withdrawn Vehicles - Page 135

wmbusphotos.com

 

[Trainman40083]

London buses have the ramp at the centre doors.
Removing the centre door is relatively easy, but moving the ramp to the front door can sometimes be problematic ... it's all to do with the strength of the underlying structure.
Remember that the stairs open towards the centre door space, and ensuring that a standard wheelchair will fit along the gangway all have to be considered.
Nothing is impossible, but for a 12 year old bus may be excessively expensive.

Was there not the other consideration, that whilst an operator might consider removing the centre doors, they also had to have an emergency exit fitted offside. I thought London buses did not have a conventional emergency exit as they had the centre door.

 

[Goldfish62]

Was there not the other consideration, that whilst an operator might consider removing the centre doors, they also had to have an emergency exit fitted offside. I thought London buses did not have a conventional emergency exit as they had the centre door.

Correct. No need for a separate emergency exit.