Arriva Trains Wales Fare Dodging Prosecution

[Aaron Hayward]

removed

 

[tiptoptaff]

You could have asked the guard on the Treforest to Cardiff train for a through ticket, split at Cardiff, and it would have been sold. I'm afraid it's a bit of a slam dunk. You had the opportunity to pay on the train without penalty and chose not to. You then chose not to pay at Cardiff Central.

In the eyes of the TOC that shows intent to avoid the fare.

Wait for the letter and see what they say, but be prepared to be offering a three figure sum as an out of court settlement.

 

[Aaron Hayward]

You could have asked the guard on the Treforest to Cardiff train for a through ticket, split at Cardiff, and it would have been sold. I'm afraid it's a bit of a slam dunk. You had the opportunity to pay on the train without penalty and chose not to. You then chose not to pay at Cardiff Central.

In the eyes of the TOC that shows intent to avoid the fare.

Wait for the letter and see what they say, but be prepared to be offering a three figure sum as an out of court settlement.

thank you for the reply! I understand that and I don't mind paying the fine but does mean I have to go to court and get a conviction?

 

[tiptoptaff]

thank you for the reply! I understand that and I don't mind paying the fine but does mean I have to go to court and get a conviction?

A settlement out of court will mean you do not have to go to court. They of course do not have to accept any offer. Just wait for their letter, and see what they are intending to prosecute under.

 

[furlong]

And if you read other similar threads on here, you'll see the first reply people send is sometimes disregarded, and it's only when they respond a second or third time that they are able to negotiate a settlement.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The OP was stopped on Friday 18th October meaning it was Transport for Wales Rail not Arriva Trains Wales. We don't have precedent on how this will pan out as TfW Rail only took over on 14/10/18.

 

[Aaron Hayward]

Thanks everyone for the help. I have trawled through all this website too and it seems the only thing I can do right now is wait for a letter and then said an apologetic letter to the train company stating that I would cover all charges ?

 

[najaB]

I may be reading things wrongly, but I'm less than convinced that TfW have a case here, I'd appreciate if anyone can point out the flaw in my reasoning.

The OP boarded at a station with a ticket office and machine but was sold a ticket onboard, then didn't have time at his interchange station to purchase a ticket for the second leg of his journey so attempted to purchase at his destination. I'm reasonably confident that any threat of a Byelaw 18 prosecution for failing to purchase at Treforest was nullified by being sold a ticket on board and, because they had already started their journey, there was no need to incur a delay in order to purchase at Cardiff.

As for a RoRA S. 5.3 prosecution, the question that needs to be answered is if he displayed intent to avoid paying the fare due. There is an argument to be made that he could have asked the conductor for a Treforest to Swansea ticket, and by only asking and paying for the Treforest to Cardiff segment of the journey he was attempting to avoid paying the correct fare. However, he is within his rights to use more than one ticket to travel as long as those tickets sufficiently overlap such that no part of the journey hasn't been paid for. So, had he stopped to buy the second ticket at Cardiff, the correct fare would have been paid (even though the amount would have been less than a single Treforest to Swansea fare).

So, to my mind, the question is does a ticket that one intends to but haven't had the opportunity to purchase count for the purposes of NRCoT condition 14.2? Given that the OP had already been allowed to purchase on board during that very journey, it's not a stretch to say that on arriving at Cardiff and realising the next train to Swansea was about to depart he had a reasonable expectation that he would be able to purchase on board before arriving at Swansea. So it's difficult to say that he's demonstrated a clear intent to avoid paying the fare for his journey.

TL;DR: To the OP, when they write to you asking for your side of events, reply explaining that you expected to be able to pay on board the but now know that you should have purchased both tickets at the same time and ask that the case be set aside on payment of the fare due and a contribution to the costs incurred.

 

[Haywain]

Given that the OP actually had an encounter with someone who sold him a ticket, I think it's really stretching things to suggest that he had no opportunity to pay!

 

[najaB]

Given that the OP actually had an encounter with someone who sold him a ticket, I think it's really stretching things to suggest that he had no opportunity to pay!

True. However it's not beyond reason that he expected to have time to purchase at Cardiff and/or thought that the conductor on the train wouldn't sell a split ticket.

 

[Haywain]

True. However it's not beyond reason that he expected to have time to purchase at Cardiff and/or thought that the conductor on the train wouldn't sell a split ticket.

I understand that, but expectation and thinking do not constitute the reality of the situation.

 

[najaB]

I understand that, but expectation and thinking do not constitute the reality of the situation.

Ordinarly I would agree with you completely, but in this case the OP been sold a ticket onboard on the very same journey, apparently with no fuss or warning that they need to buy before travel. So I think the TOC would be on somewhat weak grounds if they attempted to prosecute.

Allowing someone to do something, and then attempting to prosecute them for doing exactly the same thing 20 minutes later might not be entrapment, but it feels like entrapment.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The OP could have asked the Conductor for the ticket from CDF to SWA when he got the ticket to CDF, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to wait to the originating point of the second leg to purchase a "spli ticket". The Conductors machine is capable of doing it as would be the STAR machine in the booking office at Treforest which is on the Cardiff bound platform as is the TVM which isn't. All he had to do was ask.

Theres also ticket buying facilities in the subway @ Central which he would have to traverse to change from a Valleys line service to Swansea. So technically depending on what time he left Trefforest he's passed up on 3/4 opportunities to purchase the correct ticket or combination of tickets for his journey.

 

[Dai Corner]

For reference, here is a link to TfW's Revenue Protection Policy. I've also attached a copy.
https://tfwrail.wales/revenue-protection-policy1

 

[paddington]

For reference, here is a link to TfW's Revenue Protection Policy. I've also attached a copy.

I note that this states:

In line with the National Conditions of Travel, our Conductors are instructed to only sell “the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on.

 

[Aaron Hayward]

Thank you for attaching the links, I have read through them and the leaflet I was given by the officer. I can see that I should have spend more time in trying to get a ticket for the second part of the journey. The officer stopped me before i had the chance to go to the office (stood infront of the office) he did ask me that if he was not there would I have got a ticket to which I said I would. I suppose it was a major flaw on my behalf. Its a new TOC, I will let you know how it pans out. Thanks again for you help and advice

 

[Gareth Marston]

Reading through the policy I don't think they'll be any danger of prosecution unless the OP is a repeat offender and haven't disclosed the fact or there are details not posted or don't engage with the process.

An out of court settlement seems to be the most likely outcome.

I note that this states:

The OP didn't ask for a ticket or combination of tickets to where he was travelling just one to an interchange point.

 

[furlong]

Normally you'd consider RORA 5(3)(b) rather than (a):

Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

But, as already quoted, the company might have given itself an additional hurdle here due to its policy not to provide a normal opportunity to purchase the tickets for the complete journey on board:

our Conductors are instructed to only sell the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on.

(So this could get deep into legal technicalities - point in time of alleged offence vs point in time of alleged demonstration of intent etc.)

 

[furlong]

I may be reading things wrongly, but I'm less than convinced that TfW have a case here, I'd appreciate if anyone can point out the flaw in my reasoning.

The 18(1) reference to "enter any train" might not be the first train of the journey?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Normally you'd consider RORA 5(3)(b) rather than (a):



But, as already quoted, the company might have given itself an additional hurdle here due to its policy not to provide a normal opportunity to purchase the tickets for the complete journey on board:


(So this could get deep into legal technicalities - point in time of alleged offence vs point in time of alleged demonstration of intent etc.)

The OP did not ask for a ticket or combination of tickets to his actual destination though, just one to a point directly served by the first train. So this clause remains untested as it does not apply due to the OP only asking for a ticket to Cardiff.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The OP did not ask for a ticket or combination of tickets to his actual destination though, just one to a point directly served by the first train. So this clause remains untested as it does not apply due to the OP only asking for a ticket to Cardiff.

Indeed, it wasn't a case of "I can't sell you a ticket to Swansea as it's not directly served" thus a defence under their policy, it was never asked for. And I know for a fact they'd have sold it.

 

[father_jack]

Example-

"Single from X to London- £105.70 please".

"Crikey, how much !, so single from X to the next stop",

"Sorry you require a ticket or tickets for the ENTIRE journey you intend to make".

OP needs to accept the penalty.

 

[Dai Corner]

Indeed, it wasn't a case of "I can't sell you a ticket to Swansea as it's not directly served" thus a defence under their policy, it was never asked for. And I know for a fact they'd have sold it.

Would they have sold a ticket to Cardiff and a separate one from Cardiff to Swansea, which is what the OP wanted?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Example-

"Single from X to London- £105.70 please".

"Crikey, how much !, so single from X to the next stop",

"Sorry you require a ticket or tickets for the ENTIRE journey you intend to make".

OP needs to accept the penalty.

I disagree that the OP needs to accept the penalty: it is for them to decide whether they want to come to a settlement (which is guaranteed to cost them, and the money will go solely to the TOC, but which is the least risky and stressful option), or whether they want to take it to Court and plead guilty (which, if a Byelaws prosecution is what is being proposed, would probably result in a higher amount being payable, but less would go to the TOC), or whether they want to take it to Court and plead not guilty (which could result in nothing being paid, if successful, but if unsuccessful it could lead to a much greater fine etc. being payable, and/or a criminal record if prosecuted under RoRA).

If we are to consider purely a potential Byelaws prosecution, it would be relevant to consider what time (and day of the week) the OP boarded at Trefforest (i.e. whether or not the ticket office was open), and depending on the answer to this, what method of payment he wanted to use (as, if the ticket office was closed, the ticket machine may not have accepted the OP's chosen method of payment).

 

[najaB]

If we are to consider purely a potential Byelaws prosecution, it would be relevant to consider what time (and day of the week) the OP boarded at Trefforest (i.e. whether or not the ticket office was open), and depending on the answer to this, what method of payment he wanted to use (as, if the ticket office was closed, the ticket machine may not have accepted the OP's chosen method of payment).

Treforrest is a bit of a red-herring as they were sold a ticket to Cardiff on the train. Even the most ambitious prosecutor would struggle to make a Byelaw 18 prosecution stick.

Any putative prosecution would necessarily focus on the Cardiff to Swansea portion of the journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Treforrest is a bit of a red-herring as they were sold a ticket to Cardiff on the train. Even the most ambitious prosecutor would struggle to make a Byelaw 18 prosecution stick.

Any putative prosecution would necessarily focus on the Cardiff to Swansea portion of the journey.

Well, it is relevant insofar as Byelaw 18(3)(i) must still be interpreted with reference to the facilities available at Treforrest, even for the Cardiff-Swansea portion of the journey. If no facilities were available at the time of boarding, Byelaw 18 is out, leaving only RoRA. Whether or not an argument by the TOC that there was intent to avoid the fare will be accepted, will depend very much on the Judge(s) on the day!

 

[najaB]

Well, it is relevant insofar as Byelaw 18(3)(i) must still be interpreted with reference to the facilities available at Treforrest, even for the Cardiff-Swansea portion of the journey.

But they had a ticket for the Treforrest to Cardiff portion of the journey, so it comes back to @furlong's question of if 'enter a train' means the first train or each train. If the former then a Byelaw 18 prosecution is impossible (since they were sold a ticket), if the latter then it's only Cardiff to Swansea that needs to be considered.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If we are to consider purely a potential Byelaws prosecution, it would be relevant to consider what time (and day of the week) the OP boarded at Trefforest (i.e. whether or not the ticket office was open), and depending on the answer to this, what method of payment he wanted to use (as, if the ticket office was closed, the ticket machine may not have accepted the OP's chosen method of payment).

The OP was at 1950 on Friday - a quick look at journey planner shows theirs no way they traveled from Trefforest to Swansea and got stopped by an RPI and had time to get home and post leaving Trefforest after 1800 when the booking office there closed.

The OP can confirm his time of departure but i think we can take it as read that the Booking Office should have been open.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/TRF.aspx

Ticket buying and collection

Ticket Office

Yes
Opening hours
Monday - Friday 06:00 - 18:00
Saturday 08:00 - 14:30
Sunday Closed
Location
On the Cardiff-bound platform

 

[furlong]

Indeed, it wasn't a case of "I can't sell you a ticket to Swansea as it's not directly served" thus a defence under their policy, it was never asked for. And I know for a fact they'd have sold it.

The policy makes it clear that there is no expectation that a passenger wishing to purchase a ticket on board (where facilities were available at the point of origin) should ask for any ticket other than one to a destination served by the train they are on. (This might have an impact on any inference of intent.)

 

[tiptoptaff]

The policy makes it clear that there is no expectation that a passenger wishing to purchase a ticket on board (where facilities were available at the point of origin) should ask for any ticket other than one to a destination served by the train they are on. (This might have an impact on any inference of intent.)

In that case the OP should not have boarded at Cardiff without purchasing their split ticket. They had ample opportunity to purchase a ticket for the full journey they intended to make, and did not do so.

 

[furlong]

In that case the OP should not have boarded at Cardiff without purchasing their split ticket. They had ample opportunity to purchase a ticket for the full journey they intended to make, and did not do so.

Do you know that? The OP stated

when I got off at Cardiff I jumped straight on the next train