Arriva Wales compensation

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by LisaH, 7 Sep 2018.

  1. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    When it was renewed it didn't result in Delay Repay being introduced. I'm sure the DfT can explain.
     
  2. JN114

    JN114 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,258
    Joined:
    28 Jun 2005
    Because it wasn’t a new franchise- it was a direct award based on extension of the existing financial terms. Any changes to compensation regime would require a renegotiation of financial terms; due to the significant impact that delay compensation would have on the contract - and not something the DfT was prepared to sacrifice the cost for. But that’s way outwith the scope of this thread.
     
  3. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    5,258
    Joined:
    15 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Crayford
    But other franchises (eg Southeastern) did introduce delayrepay as part of the direct award. GWR obviously have something over the DfT.
     
  4. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    Right so employ more drivers to sit around playing cards at key locations "just in case" this costs £. Then the fares can go up to pay for the them and the delay repay.

    Some people really don't think things through....
     
  5. 221129

    221129 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,208
    Joined:
    21 Mar 2011
    It was a direct award. So not a true new franchise. When it is re let I'm sure delay repay will be brought in.
     
  6. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    See MikeWh's answer above.
     
  7. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,614
    Joined:
    24 Dec 2009
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Go back a few years and spare drivers/guards were a feature at key locations, waiting to go into action in cases of service disruption or sickness of colleagues. Fares then were much lower then (even taking into account inflation) than they are now.

    There was, of course, no Delay Repay but we have been reliably informed on here that the amounts paid out in compensation for delays is trivial in the grand scheme of things and obviously a key result of having spare turns is a reduction in delays anyway, particularly knock-on delays.

    Some people, indeed, do not think things through.
     
  8. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    In a fargmented and monetised system? Think it through and with drivers pay substantially more than in yesterday. A spare crew at one location in two shifts will set you back quarter of a million a year. multiply that around all the ATW train crew depots and your into £ millions per annum.
     
  9. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

    Messages:
    3,377
    Joined:
    23 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Powys
    Exactly!
    By my calculation just the Cambrian would need 2 spare crews per shift, so that is 8 staff a day, and that doesn't take into account cover for holidays, training etc. Even if they are only on £30k a year that is more than a quarter of a miilion just on wages without adding the NI, tax etc into the equation. Now bring all the other depots just in Wales and we are into many millions. The only people who are going to pay for this is the passenger.
    Obviously some on here don't mind their fares going up!!
     
  10. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    1,786
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    It is not about whether it is realistic to actually provide that cover - but if the railway decides not to do so, they cannot claim the delay is "entirely" outside their control. They were the ones that decided on that specific wording, so they must uphold it.
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,799
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Again, the root cause of the issue was completely outside the control of the railway industry - a truck hit the bridge. The fact that it may have been possible to mitigate the impact doesn't change the cause.
     
  12. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    ForTheLoveOf clearly doesn't do root cause analysis.
     
  13. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

    Messages:
    3,377
    Joined:
    23 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Powys
    I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish!
    No TOC can control incidents like this, and no TOC can control the response time of the Network Rail MOM or Bridge Engineer, and no-one can control idiot drivers. Therefore it is totally outside their control.
    And they weren't the ones who decided the wording, that was the Government in the contracts.
    Please, do some proper research before making such wild and inaccurate statements.
     
  14. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

    Messages:
    4,380
    Joined:
    1 May 2012
    Say, eight locations x £250k = £2m pa

    In 2016 ATW paid a dividend of £20m to its parent (Arriva UK Trains).

    And you could deduct the saving in Delay Repay from that £2m.
     
  15. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

    Messages:
    4,380
    Joined:
    1 May 2012
    But how far down the trail does that continue?
     
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,799
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Until you get to something that the Railway can't evade.

    E.g.
    Q: Why was the train delayed?
    A: Because there was a speed restriction.
    Q: Why was there are speed restriction?
    A: Because the rail conditions were poor.
    Q: Why were the rail conditions poor?
    A: Because it's autumn and the leaf fall season.
    Q: Why were there leaves on the line?
    A: Because the trees were growing over the line
    Q: Why weren't the trees trimmed back?
    A: Erm....
     
  17. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    That horse has long bolted courtesy of the brains at the SRA and Toby Blairs Government. No TOC is now going to be given that sort of contract. Keolis will not have the profit making ability nor the spare crew written into the contract.
     
  18. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,614
    Joined:
    24 Dec 2009
    Location:
    Sheffield
    E.g.
    Q: Why was the train cancelled from Manchester ?
    A: Because the incoming unit from the south never reached Manchester.
    Q: Why was there not a spare crew and unit at Manchester in case of such an eventuality ?
    A: We didn't want to pay for such contingency measures.
     
  19. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire


    Q. Why is our train overcrowded?
    A: Because there's spare ones sat in the siding in case we break down.
     
  20. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,799
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    That's not how RCA works, you have to follow a single path. A spare train would be a mitigation measure, but it's not in the causal chain.

    It should be:

    Q: Why was the train cancelled from Manchester ?
    A: Because the incoming unit from the south never reached Manchester.
    Q: Why did the incoming unit not reach Manchester?
    A: Because we turned it at <insert station>
    Q: Why did you turn it at <insert station>
    A: Because it was severely delayed reaching <insert station>
    Q: Why was it delayed?
    A: Because the line was closed for 2 hours
    Q: Why was the line closed?
    A: Because a truck struck the bridge.
    Q: Why did the truck strike the bridge?
    A: **** knows. It had signs and everything! Go ask the truck driver.
     
  21. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    1,786
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    If you were to do an analysis of everything that has caused a delay to a particular service, in virtually all cases you couldn't say that the cause of the delay is "entirely" outside the control of the rail industry. At the end of the day a lot of delays are fundamentally caused because the railway has to set a limit to what it protects against.

    There's nothing wrong with only protecting against that which is reasonable to protect against, and that which is financially viable to protect against, but if there is something the railway doesn't do which they could have done then they cannot also get out paying the appropriate compensation.
     
  22. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

    Messages:
    3,031
    Joined:
    1 Sep 2014
    What about installing devices that stop bridge strikes - you could argue that that IS in the control of the railway industry?
     
  23. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,799
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    That seems reasonable, most delays will be due to failings of the Railway. However, having a truck strike a bridge is not.
     
  24. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    Root cause analysis is perfectly illustrated by najaB's post, immediately above yours.
     
  25. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

    Messages:
    2,787
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2013
    Although the bridge is the property of the railway, I seem to remember that putting a large metal bar across the road in advance of the bridge is another matter entirely because the road is not the property of the railway and building over roads is a complex matter.
     
  26. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    HGV drivers have to train and pass tests to hold a Class 1 or 2 license then do continuos professional development. Height of vehicle/ bridges are all part of that. The same for Bus drivers. There should in theory be no excuse for bridge strikes as professional road drivers are all trained not to (cough cough). So it's really a training issue for the road industry.
     
  27. JN114

    JN114 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,258
    Joined:
    28 Jun 2005
    Ultimately, that’s the system that is in place until the new franchisee takes over.

    If you want to challenge that, then the Consumer Rights Act offers an Avenue in which to pursue ATW for more. If it’s only the money you’re interested in the threaten them with it and see if they blink and settle. If you want - as we all do - to get actual answers on what constitutes reasonable care in providing a train service; roll the dice and pursue the matter in court. Then share with us the outcome. One way or another I’m not convinced the outcome will be positive, either in the short or longer term.
     
  28. talltim

    talltim Established Member

    Messages:
    1,880
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2010
    Who built the bridge?
     
  29. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

    Messages:
    3,377
    Joined:
    23 Mar 2013
    Location:
    Powys
    What relevance is that?
     
  30. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

    Messages:
    5,796
    Joined:
    26 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Newtown Montgomeryshire
    In the mid 19th century when there were no HGV's? Why should the railway be penalised it was there first!
     

Share This Page