Arriving at St Pancras Int off-peak

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Cletus, 12 Nov 2011.

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  1. Cletus

    Cletus Established Member

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    Travelling from Dover Priory to St Pancras on HS1 I believe that the weekday off-peak doesn't begin until 11.00am? This means that I wouldn't be able to take the 9.44am from DVP arriving at STP 10.44am?

    Therefore as means of arriving at STP as soon after 11.00am as possible, would I be able to get the 9.44am but get off at Stratford and wait for the next service that arrives at STP after 11.00am and get on that?
     
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  3. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

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    Who said it starts at 11am? Here off-peak is the first train to arrive in London after 10am.
     
  4. Cletus

    Cletus Established Member

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    I stand corrected :oops:

    If then you bring forward my timings by 1 hour, would my query apply?
     
  5. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

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    I'm not saying this is the case for DP mind, but I don't see why it wouldn't be seeing as DP is further out and is the same TOC.

    As to the second question no you cannot. You cannot catch any train before the off-peak period starts using an off-peak ticket.
     
  6. Brucey

    Brucey Member

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    The restriction is "By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000."

    So if your train to Stratford is destined for London and will reach there before 1000, then your ticket is not valid (even if you leave at Stratford).
     
  7. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    You didn't say which ticket type you're intending on using (the restriction will vary depending on ticket type). This information is needed to give an accurate answer.

    For example an off-peak return from Dover Priory to London Terminals route PLUS HIGH SPEED is valid "by any train except those timed to depart Mondays - Fridays before 0930". On the other hand an off-peak day return with the same origin, destination and route is valid on any train "scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000."

    So the 09:44 from Dover, arriving St Pancras 10:51 would be valid on both these tickets. The 08:57 from Dover, changing at Ashford International and arriving at St Pancras at 10:21 would be valid on an off-peak day return (since you arrive in London after 10am), but not on an off-peak return (since you depart Dover before 09:30am).

    I have modified this as highlighted to turn it into a relevant question:
    Not in this case - the 08:44 will still arrive in St Pancras before 10:00am, whether or not you are on it! You are barred from travelling on any trains that arrive in St Pancras before 10am. If however the 08:44 terminated at Stratford and didn't arrive in London at all, then the restriction wouldn't apply to that train and you would be OK to do this.
     
  8. craigwilson

    craigwilson Member

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    This is especially true because journeys to destinations past London/outside of the Network area are subject to different restrictions

    e.g. Margate to Manchester - the first Off-Peak train which goes via STP is the 07:49, which arrives into STP at 09:21. This is off-peak because the restriction code for MAR-MAN off-peak returns is 9I which states:

    and such an itinerary would put you on the 1000 EUS-MAN.
     
  9. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    This is a dangerous assumption to make and not always true.

    Why 0921?

     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but for the avoidance of doubt the rule is:

    Which is pretty clear :)
     
  11. craigwilson

    craigwilson Member

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    OK, I wasn't aware of that rule. That's indeed very clear :D

    Where do I find that written down (just so I know)?

    Would be slightly pointless starting stupidly early though (in the case of my example journey, you'd still have to stand at Euston and wait for the 0940, even if you got there 2 hours before - you're still restricted by the other leg of the journey)
     
  12. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

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    Then why is if I put in Sittingbourne to Bath into the Journey planner (off-peak return) it tells me the first train I can catch is the 9:07am, which is the first off-peak service?

    Interestingly when I went to Bath last year it told me I could take an earlier one, which I did (I took a print out of the result from the journey planner just in case I got challenged though).
     
  13. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Likely to be an interpretation error from the engine.

    This particular 'easement' has been in place for years.
     
  14. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Sittingbourne to Bath Spa takes restriction code YC, copied below - check out the highlighted part!

    This "overlay" of restriction 7E (see copy below, again with relevant section highlighted) is what's causing the problem.

     
  15. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I don't know if the 'rule' is written down as quoted in the public domain, but the ticket restrictions (as accessible through national rail enquiries) for such journeys will only give restrictions for the leg outside of the network area. The other part of the journey is therefore unrestricted by definition.

    (the exception is some lazily worded restrictions applying to east anglian destinations)

     
  16. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

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    I see. Is this a new thing, because as I said I made the journey last year and caught a train at aprox. 7:30am, as advised by the journey planner when I purchased the ticket. I had to show it to several people on the journey to St Pancras and wasn't challenged (it wouldn't work the barrier at St Pancras though).
     
  17. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Has there been any agreement as to whether the referral to Restriction 7E trumps the 'easement' of restrictions?

    If not then the ambiguity can play to the passenger's advantage.

    For the benefit of those without access to the relevant software, the full restriction text is:

     
  18. Mike395

    Mike395 Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I think that the second paragraph stating 'unless shown otherwise' covers it - i.e. any specific restriction supercedes the more general easement of the restrictions :)
     
  19. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    That qualification only applies to "Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network Area". The previous paragraph covers "Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area" and it doesn't allow exceptions, and this is what applies to the Sittingbourne to Bath ticket.

    I accept that this doesn't apply to a Bath to Sittingbourne ticket though - that is clearly covered by the second paragraph and thus the evening restrictions out of St Pancras would apply to this one.
     
  20. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I strongly disagree, it's not uncommon to see restriction text that makes absolutely no sense in relation to the journey actually being made. The validity text is an absolute mess on quite a few of the codes, such as this one. Additionally there is no "unless shown otherwise" text where the origin is inside the Network area.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    No...
    Unfortunately the journey planners struggle to interpret some long-distance journeys with complex restriction codes, and when you look at the ridiculous restrictions you can see why. Quite simply the programmers don't appear to know which rule trumps which rule, and it's not easy to program a load of waffle in text format to a series of instructions that are applied to a booking engine.

    A computer program will carry out instructions in whatever sequence it is told to do.
     
  21. Mike395

    Mike395 Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Whoops my mistake - been a long day, misread the restriction text :oops:
     
  22. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    Another badly worded item forom a TOC/ATOC. I would assume the idea was to restrict long distance travel into St Pancras. Unfortunately the people who word these items do not have the knowledge to know what else these changes affect.
     
  23. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    My opinion is that it's related to HS1 and SouthEastern wanting to restrict the use of long-distance off-peak and advance fares on what they consider to be "peak" trains into and out of St Pancras, because of the specific mention of "St Pancras International".

    The same wording about restrictions 7E/9J has been tagged onto loads of other restrictions. I wonder is it even an attempt to hide the fact that is only purpose is to restrict morning and afternoon peak availability on HS1 services. Probably not though - but it could be much clearer.

    The wording is more obvious on the restriction codes for certain advance fares - I believe it is the main way SouthEastern restrict availability of advances on HS1. They can't do it the usual way by putting a zero quota since the trains aren't reservable. E.g. advance fares from Sittingbourne to Bath take restricrtion IS:
     
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