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Article: The next TfL financial crunch will be wrapped in a purple ribbon, and labelled “Crossrail”.

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hwl

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Again. Wasn't the extra measures for uelz and the congestion charge forced upon tfl to get funding. Unlike any other place in the uk.
Correct, HMT are using TfL to effectively trial road pricing technology and elasticities before they need to think about starting to roll it out nationally in 2028-2030 to deal with increasing numbers of EVs.
(the second phase of dynamic road pricing is all server side IT)
 
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DC1989

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I thought tfl lost money on ulez? The set up costs etc and more people changed vehicles than they anticipated. That showed the success of the scheme of course
 

87 027

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I thought tfl lost money on ulez? The set up costs etc and more people changed vehicles than they anticipated. That showed the success of the scheme of course
TFL website still says "We prefer that you use a vehicle that meets the emissions standards rather than pay a daily charge" so if it's intended to generate a net financial surplus then they aren't being very open about it!


I know someone who lives within the ULEZ area with a non-compliant vehicle and doesn't get charged for every day they drive despite being registered for autopay, which suggests less than blanket camera coverage
 

hwl

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TFL website still says "We prefer that you use a vehicle that meets the emissions standards rather than pay a daily charge" so if it's intended to generate a net financial surplus then they aren't being very open about it!
Currently ULEZ is an absolute flop financially vs what was predicted (large 8 figure sum per annum less than expected). 90%+ of people did get the hint and use more compliant vehicles.

I know someone who lives within the ULEZ area with a non-compliant vehicle and doesn't get charged for every day they drive despite being registered for autopay, which suggests less than blanket camera coverage
TfL are also fairly open than camera coverage isn't blanket (unlike congestion charging zone). Cost of more cameras vs small amounts of extra revenue weren't worth it.
 

E27007

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Again. Wasn't the extra measures for uelz and the congestion charge forced upon tfl to get funding. Unlike any other place in the uk.
Or to taxi (black cab) drivers... many Euro5 diesel vehicles still on the road, but the taxi unions are quite powerful and would kick off if TfL tried to ban them. Euro6 diesel does cut out on the pollution, a lot more engines have stop start tech. More pollution is caused by the 20 zones (driving in first or second gear at 20, higher engine revs, so more pollution.
Euro 6 did not cut out the pollution directly, the Euro6 standard was downgraded to Euro 5 - 10% after lobbying by the car makers, the diesel cars were still pumping out multiples of the original 80mg Nox figure, especially in town driving as the Adblue systems (if fitted) closed down in those driving situations. Indirectly Euro 6 has cut Nox pollution, the car makers, unable to meet Euro6 standards without expensive redesign of the engines and systems, withdrew many diesel cars from their sales range.
 

Snow1964

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TfL Board meeting papers for next weeks meeting are now available

The Annual Accounts have a material uncertainty of going concern depending on Government funding (which will be updated at Board meeting), so might need to be amended and approved depending on what happens
4.4 On 24 June 2022, the current extraordinary funding and financing agreement between TfL and the DfT was extended until 13 July 2022. A further extension was then agreed on 13 July 2022 to 28 July 2022. These recent extensions have not been reflected in the TfL Statement of Accounts due to the late stage at which they were agreed and the ongoing discussions on longer term funding.
4.5 It is recognised that Government funding for TfL is in place, subject to conditions, until 28 July 2022. An update on funding will be provided at the meeting. Government has, in all the funding letters it has provided for TfL following the start of coronavirus pandemic, confirmed that TfL’s long term funding needs are recognised and that they will be met, through a combination of measures from TfL, the Greater London Authority and Government. Given the timing for agreement of any arrangements for further Government funding after 28 July, it is proposed that the Board is asked to consider the Statement of Accounts but not approve it, with approval authority being delegated to the Audit and Assurance Committee instead. This will allow time for the required financial statement disclosures to be completed and TfL’s external auditors to complete their audit work before the deadline for publication of the approved Statement of Accounts of 30 September 2022.
4.8 Given the materiality of further funding to TfL’s going concern status, the Statement of Accounts will be updated following agreement of funding beyond 28 July 2022

 

Wolfie

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450.emu

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Again. Wasn't the extra measures for uelz and the congestion charge forced upon tfl to get funding. Unlike any other place in the uk.
TfL have secured extended funding by DfT, it was in a Tweet sent by Sadiq Khan last week. He still seems bitter about it though and will continue with cutting some bus routes back or deleting others. Other parts of TfL such as the Overground are running well, with Barking Riverside the latest station, and Bond Street opening soon on the Elizabeth Line.

TfL's previous funding from DfT was based on them generating some of the money themselves, hence ULEZ expansion.
 

Goldfish62

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TfL have secured extended funding by DfT, it was in a Tweet sent by Sadiq Khan last week. He still seems bitter about it though and will continue with cutting some bus routes back or deleting others. Other parts of TfL such as the Overground are running well, with Barking Riverside the latest station, and Bond Street opening soon on the Elizabeth Line.

TfL's previous funding from DfT was based on them generating some of the money themselves, hence ULEZ expansion.
No, the DfT has tabled a proposed long term funding deal for consideration.
 

450.emu

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No, the DfT has tabled a proposed long term funding deal for consideration.
Ok... thanks for letting me know. I think they will wait until September and see if a new PM and perhaps Transport Minister will deal with the matter. A handful of bus routes are still under threat. Not road or rail related, but have noticed the lack of red route enforcement of late in some areas, but lots of Revenue Protection teams on routes where the LT's (New Routemaster, nick-named "free bus" by kids due to 3 door entry and exit) operate.

Things will get even quieter now the School Holidays have started.
 

Wolfie

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TfL have secured extended funding by DfT, it was in a Tweet sent by Sadiq Khan last week. He still seems bitter about it though and will continue with cutting some bus routes back or deleting others. Other parts of TfL such as the Overground are running well, with Barking Riverside the latest station, and Bond Street opening soon on the Elizabeth Line.

TfL's previous funding from DfT was based on them generating some of the money themselves, hence ULEZ expansion.
Not true. TfL received an offer from DfT on 22 Jul 22 which they are evaluating. As ever the devil is doubtless in the detail.

"Generating some of the money themselves" - try £500M. Oh, and DfT mandated the ULEZ expansion then Tory politicians had the damned cheek to moan about Khan doing so.
 
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Mojo

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Ok... thanks for letting me know. I think they will wait until September and see if a new PM and perhaps Transport Minister will deal with the matter. A handful of bus routes are still under threat. Not road or rail related, but have noticed the lack of red route enforcement of late in some areas, but lots of Revenue Protection teams on routes where the LT's (New Routemaster, nick-named "free bus" by kids due to 3 door entry and exit) operate.
All door boarding on the New Routemaster buses was scrapped in early 2020 (although ironically mandatory boarding by the middle door where available was brought back in spring 2020 for a short while due to health concerns regarding bus drivers).
 

Wolfie

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All door boarding on the New Routemaster buses was scrapped in early 2020 (although ironically mandatory boarding by the middle door where available was brought back in spring 2020 for a short while due to health concerns regarding bus drivers).
You still see a lot of scrotes boarding through the middle and rear doors.
 

Busaholic

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A few I'd say, dependent on route. Some go to the front to touch in.
So those ones at least are not fare dodgers but taking advantage of all three doors as originally envisaged and put into action (there had to be something favourable about the vehicles!)
 

E27007

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So those ones at least are not fare dodgers but taking advantage of all three doors as originally envisaged and put into action (there had to be something favourable about the vehicles!)
Sunday 24th July, London was hot/sweaty/sticky and congested with traffic, the date included a running day of vintage buses and coaches out of Victoria coach station to mark 90 years since opening, route 11, Victoria to the Aldwych of the Strand, included several RT buses interlaced with current buses working the route, the RT bus which I rode on route 11, the first examples built before WW2, simply thrived on the work , spirited stop to stop running, minimal dwell times at stops courtesy of an enthusiastic conductor on the platform, (no chance of fare dodging). It is remarkable that an elderly 1930s bus is as capable as any modern bus for the task of shifting passengers, I have many doubts as to how much real progress has occurred in the last 50 years for London bus travel
 

takno

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I have many doubts as to how much real progress has occurred in the last 50 years for London bus travel
Apart from the environmental benefits, the benefits to people with pushchairs or in wheelchairs, the huge cost saving of not having a conductor, the increase in the number of people carried, the comfort of not having to sit in a low-roofed sweatbox and the increased sense of safety and accessibility. Apart from those trifling things I can absolutely see what you mean.
 

E27007

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HMG in the noughties (Blair/Brown era) pushed diesels because they produced far less greenhouse gases. Unfortunately it later became apparent that they also produced way more of the worst (i.e. most damaging to human health) kind of particulates hence the policy change. Harsh l agree on the purchasers of those vehicles.
Harsh on the buyers, but not harsh on the manufacturers who committed the fraud, USA tackled the problem heads on, is the car compliant with the emissions regulations? yes/no? If not, the owner handed back the car and had their money refunded by the manufacturer, and all backed up by USA law, in the Eu, we are still waiting
 

Ken H

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And of course a very high proportion of London's visitors use its public transport network, including those from the UK outside of Greater London, and the rest of the world...
But can only use our ENCTS passes on buses after 0930. Not tube, rail or tram.
 

notverydeep

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The NHS is *extremely* efficient. This isn't a political opinion, just a fact: it provides comprehensive health cover to the entire population for far less than other rich countries spend on health.
The problem is that politicians (and many others) conflate efficiency with effectiveness. The government and private firms bidding for rail franchises though BR was inefficient, but found no costs to remove (indeed the model of privatisation inevitably drove costs up). BR was then (and the NHS is now) much less good at delivering the public’s expectation of the service level they want. The NHS mostly does, but often after a long wait and/or journey to access the service…

It is far from clear that the public regard the current rail system as any more effective than BR, but the cost numbers speak for themselves on efficiency…
 
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Goldfish62

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Apart from the environmental benefits, the benefits to people with pushchairs or in wheelchairs, the huge cost saving of not having a conductor, the increase in the number of people carried, the comfort of not having to sit in a low-roofed sweatbox and the increased sense of safety and accessibility. Apart from those trifling things I can absolutely see what you mean.
Yes, absolutely. The RT was a wonderful vehicle for its time and great to travel on now for nostalgia, but so obviously not fit for purpose for so many people who are now able to access the bus network as a matter of routine.

Let's not forget the drivers, either. The RT is a noisy and very heavy vehicle to drive. Not good day-in, day-out in today's heavy traffic.
 

450.emu

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Yes, absolutely. The RT was a wonderful vehicle for its time and great to travel on now for nostalgia, but so obviously not fit for purpose for so many people who are now able to access the bus network as a matter of routine.

Let's not forget the drivers, either. The RT is a noisy and very heavy vehicle to drive. Not good day-in, day-out in today's heavy traffic.
But an RT will never have to be thrashed in sub 20 mile per hour speeds in central London... it's a shame the congestion and cycle lanes have spoilt bus travel in London. The best time for buses was the early 2000s when Stagecoach had these fantastic Scania engined Routemasters that had a great turn of speed for such an iconic bus!

But heavy steering would've been a challenge for drivers today.

Sadiq announced plans to plant £5 million worth of trees this week, yet is not happy with the latest long term offer from DfT for funding and may reject it and may still proceed with his "managed decline" of the bus network. Any cuts such as an end to routes 4, 11, 12, 74, 242, 349 and others will be by the end of this year or beginning of next. Current funding has been extended by the DfT until 3 August.

Link below

 
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Wolfie

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But an RT will never have to be thrashed in sub 20 mile per hour speeds in central London... it's a shame the congestion and cycle lanes have spoilt bus travel in London. The best time for buses was the early 2000s when Stagecoach had these fantastic Scania engined Routemasters that had a great turn of speed for such an iconic bus!

But heavy steering would've been a challenge for drivers today.

Sadiq announced plans to plant £5 million worth of trees this week, yet is not happy with the latest long term offer from DfT for funding and may reject it and may still proceed with his "managed decline" of the bus network. Any cuts such as an end to routes 4, 11, 12, 74, 242, 349 and others will be by the end of this year or beginning of next. Current funding has been extended by the DfT until 3 August.

Link below

Re your first para the reengined Routemasters were better for who? There were lots of contemporary reports about drivers suffering from excessive vibration.
 

43066

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Yes, absolutely. The RT was a wonderful vehicle for its time and great to travel on now for nostalgia, but so obviously not fit for purpose for so many people who are now able to access the bus network as a matter of routine.

Let's not forget the drivers, either. The RT is a noisy and very heavy vehicle to drive. Not good day-in, day-out in today's heavy traffic.

A guy at my depot has a couple, loves driving them (for fun, obviously not professionally). Apparently they’re worth good money these days.
 

450.emu

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Re your first para the reengined Routemasters were better for who? There were lots of contemporary reports about drivers suffering from excessive vibration.
These were 50 year old vehicles at best... so they were not going to last forever. As a passenger they were iconic, but they were not great for disabled passengers for accessibility.

Their modern counterparts the LT's have had issues with brakes and expensive panels to replace as well as retrofit of windows as the air handling system was poor in summer. A very slow refurbishment of some have started.
 

Wolfie

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These were 50 year old vehicles at best... so they were not going to last forever. As a passenger they were iconic, but they were not great for disabled passengers for accessibility.

Their modern counterparts the LT's have had issues with brakes and expensive panels to replace as well as retrofit of windows as the air handling system was poor in summer. A very slow refurbishment of some have started.
Re your last para apparently the refurb of BoZo's vanity project is likely to be so expensive there is every chance that they will be scrapped and replaced by something more mainstream. Good riddance to bad junk if so.
 
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