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Article: The next TfL financial crunch will be wrapped in a purple ribbon, and labelled “Crossrail”.

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KGX

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I’ve travelled on the central core a couple of times now & it was so much quieter than I was anticipating. Great for the passenger, but not so much for TfLs finances. Would not be surprised if did lead to some financial issues a few months down the road. Perhaps once LHR is connected to the core, we’ll see an uplift.
 
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Wolfie

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A good post. Even I, an arch critic of our current Mayor, admit that the financial damage done by Covid dwarfs everything else. I accept that increasing council tax may be the best way to bridge the gap for the next few years. This is a London problem and the burden should be shared out equally. I don't think that motorists specifically should have to pay extra because they did not cause the problem.
So all of London should pay more council tax and subsidise the travel of all of those who commute from outside? Like heck, l'd rather put fares up.

Oh and if "this is a London problem" l trust that zero tax take from London is bailing out public transport in the rest of the country....

Incidentally l live in Canonbury and can tell you that those in your Highbury video are not representative of the whole population of Islington, in fact far from it.
 

WelshBluebird

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It is worth saying that government funding of TfL was a pretty regular thing but was massively cut before Covid. I don't have the numbers to hand but central government basically forced hundreds of millions of pounds in funding cuts which surely are having an impact today?
 

Wolfie

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It is worth saying that government funding of TfL was a pretty regular thing but was massively cut before Covid. I don't have the numbers to hand but central government basically forced hundreds of millions of pounds in funding cuts which surely are having an impact today?
Signed up to by one B Johnson as Mayor of London....
 

quartile

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So all of London should pay more council tax and subsidise the travel of all of those who commute from outside? Like heck, l'd rather put fares up.

Oh and if "this is a London problem" l trust that zero tax take from London is bailing out public transport in the rest of the country....

Incidentally l live in Canonbury and can tell you that those in your Highbury video are not representative of the whole population of Islington, in fact far from it.
The challenge is that the mayor has few ways to raise money for TfL. The current fares funding was only sustainable with the very busy network that existed pre covid. Fares are regressive with the rich paying less on fares as a proportion of income.

New York has a 4.5% higher sales tax rate in the city compared to the rest of the state with money going towards the metro. The UK hasn't devolved that power but that would allow visitors to be charged.
 

AlbertBeale

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A good post. Even I, an arch critic of our current Mayor, admit that the financial damage done by Covid dwarfs everything else. I accept that increasing council tax may be the best way to bridge the gap for the next few years. This is a London problem and the burden should be shared out equally. I don't think that motorists specifically should have to pay extra because they did not cause the problem.

But surely motorists are a major cause of the problem - the number of cars in London is excessive, and their presence makes buses less efficient; without them, the same number of buses could carry more people more quickly ... in fact there might not even need to be a significant number of extra buses to soak up the people not using cars. Furthermore, traffic is a major cause of ill-health in Londoners, hence making us more susceptible to being more affected by things like Covid. Overall, I'd say there are few social, financial, health (physical and mental), equality, mobility, etc, issues in London which wouldn't be much ameliorated by throwing 99% of private cars out of London.
 

Robert Ambler

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The mayor has always been bit ham fisted with his levies, as an example I think he added a Crossrail levy to places like Kingston and Sutton (which it goes nowhere near) at same rates as Ealing or Tower Hamlets (which it serves). When I lived in Kingston they had even added one for Maidenhead flood relief scheme !
I think you are mis-understanding how a levy works. The Greater London Authority cannot charge a levy in one borough and not another and neither can the other bodies that are able to make precepts on the Council Tax. Some of the boroughs have challenged the system of levies and precepts on the basis that they are for things of no benefit to their residents but those challenges have always been dismissed. If you go down the line of only paying for things that you use then chaos will ensue and no region wide services or infrastructure would get funded.
Presumably when you lived in Kingston your home wasn't on fire but you still had to pay the precept to fund the London Fire Brigade for example.
 

Wolfie

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But surely motorists are a major cause of the problem - the number of cars in London is excessive, and their presence makes buses less efficient; without them, the same number of buses could carry more people more quickly ... in fact there might not even need to be a significant number of extra buses to soak up the people not using cars. Furthermore, traffic is a major cause of ill-health in Londoners, hence making us more susceptible to being more affected by things like Covid. Overall, I'd say there are few social, financial, health (physical and mental), equality, mobility, etc, issues in London which wouldn't be much ameliorated by throwing 99% of private cars out of London.
You could add that the congestion charge and fares income covers the cost of maintaining trunk roads in London.
 

87 027

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Some of the boroughs have challenged the system of levies and precepts on the basis that they are for things of no benefit to their residents but those challenges have always been dismissed.
Is that true? The London Borough of Bromley challenged the Greater London Council's policy of reducing fares back in the early 1980s on the grounds that it increased the subsidy required from ratepayers, arguing this was unfair as there were no underground stations in the borough. Bromley won their case and GLC's 2 appeals both failed so they had to raise fares again
 

Railwaysceptic

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So all of London should pay more council tax and subsidise the travel of all of those who commute from outside? Like heck, l'd rather put fares up.

Oh and if "this is a London problem" l trust that zero tax take from London is bailing out public transport in the rest of the country....

Incidentally l live in Canonbury and can tell you that those in your Highbury video are not representative of the whole population of Islington, in fact far from it.
It is recognised that you don't like paying for anything. No-one, nor any one opinion is representative of everyone.
 

Robert Ambler

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Is that true? The London Borough of Bromley challenged the Greater London Council's policy of reducing fares back in the early 1980s on the grounds that it increased the subsidy required from ratepayers, arguing this was unfair as there were no underground stations in the borough. Bromley won their case and GLC's 2 appeals both failed so they had to raise fares again
But that was not the same as a levy or precept
 
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It is worth saying that government funding of TfL was a pretty regular thing but was massively cut before Covid. I don't have the numbers to hand but central government basically forced hundreds of millions of pounds in funding cuts which surely are having an impact today?

Bozo "agreed" with Osborne's/Treasury's wizzard-wheeze of slashing TfLs operating subsidy on his way out of the door to a life of doing even less for his living than the grand photo-op that was his ruinous Mayoralty.

Those idiots went along with the comfortable assumption that because (shock!Horror!!) TfL actually was on its way to a relatively neutral budget that they could get away with this and there would be no consequence - Bozo's favourite justification - for doing so because London would just keep generating Fares Revenue to cover the gap this would leave.

Almost nobody bothered to ask "but what if......?" at the time and the usually cautious Treasury was presumably happy to run without the safety net/insurance policy because things had been fine since at least WWII. What could possibly go wrong?

We'll Covid happened only four years later. London stopped "generating" much of anything and the rest is the largely unacknowledged sad story we are currently living through.

TfL are not in the crap because of payroll, or headcount, or incompetent management or any of the other safe and lazy excuses that help fog the situation for the morons currently in charge of everything. They did this. The Government.

And It wasn't Khan's fares-freeze - that came to a grand total of revenue forgone that would barely get TfL through five weeks of operating. So let's dispense with that handy bit of whatabouting.

The creature currently parked like a fat donations-sponge in 10 Downing St owns the blame for why £500M is currently such an insurmountable "issue" for TfL - who haven't got much "fat" that can actually be cut to meet this stupid demand without harm.

But "must be fair to Taxpayers" right?

This administration is even less able than usual to try pulling that stupid sound bite off.

There's a Blue Wall to shore-up/bribe/keep happy somehow. And it doesn't run anywhere near anywhere TfL does.
 

Railwaysceptic

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But surely motorists are a major cause of the problem - the number of cars in London is excessive, and their presence makes buses less efficient; without them, the same number of buses could carry more people more quickly ... in fact there might not even need to be a significant number of extra buses to soak up the people not using cars. Furthermore, traffic is a major cause of ill-health in Londoners, hence making us more susceptible to being more affected by things like Covid. Overall, I'd say there are few social, financial, health (physical and mental), equality, mobility, etc, issues in London which wouldn't be much ameliorated by throwing 99% of private cars out of London.
By no stretch of the imagination can the downturn in TfL's revenue be attributed to cars.

Most traveling by public transport in London involves steel wheels on steel rails which is not affected by cars. Any observant user of London's roads will have noticed that many roads have been closed, entire sections have been delivered to cyclists and a plethora - please note that I use that much mis-used word correctly - of traffic lights impede the free flow of traffic. A bus suffers from this almost as much as a car. (Anti-motor car psychotics hail this as a great improvement) As the old story of the hare and the tortoise is also relevant to bus travel, any genuine attempt to improve the quality of bus services must address the issue of roads being fit for purpose. An example: in recent months Whipps Cross Roundabout and the north eastern end of Lea Bridge Road have been subject to "improvements" - aka sabotage - which have turned once free-flowing traffic into a permanent slow moving queue. Buses are also caught in this trap and consequently the journey time by bus has deteriorated enormously. I'd feel sorry for anyone trying to access Whipps Cross Hospital by bus, but please note: this problem was not caused by cars. It was caused by malicious saboteurs in Waltham Forest Council and TfL.

Your ideas about health etc. are simplistic and believing that cars are the cause of everything is facile.

Bozo "agreed" with Osborne's/Treasury's wizzard-wheeze of slashing TfLs operating subsidy on his way out of the door to a life of doing even less for his living than the grand photo-op that was his ruinous Mayoralty.

Those idiots went along with the comfortable assumption that because (shock!Horror!!) TfL actually was on its way to a relatively neutral budget that they could get away with this and there would be no consequence - Bozo's favourite justification - for doing so because London would just keep generating Fares Revenue to cover the gap this would leave.

Almost nobody bothered to ask "but what if......?" at the time and the usually cautious Treasury was presumably happy to run without the safety net/insurance policy because things had been fine since at least WWII. What could possibly go wrong?

We'll Covid happened only four years later. London stopped "generating" much of anything and the rest is the largely unacknowledged sad story we are currently living through.

TfL are not in the crap because of payroll, or headcount, or incompetent management or any of the other safe and lazy excuses that help fog the situation for the morons currently in charge of everything. They did this. The Government.

And It wasn't Khan's fares-freeze - that came to a grand total of revenue forgone that would barely get TfL through five weeks of operating. So let's dispense with that handy bit of whatabouting.

The creature currently parked like a fat donations-sponge in 10 Downing St owns the blame for why £500M is currently such an insurmountable "issue" for TfL - who haven't got much "fat" that can actually be cut to meet this stupid demand without harm.

But "must be fair to Taxpayers" right?

This administration is even less able than usual to try pulling that stupid sound bite off.

There's a Blue Wall to shore-up/bribe/keep happy somehow. And it doesn't run anywhere near anywhere TfL does.
You didn't foresee Covid and nor did anyone else.
 
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Trainbike46

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By no stretch of the imagination can the downturn in TfL's revenue be attributed to cars.

Most traveling by public transport in London involves steel wheels on steel rails which is not affected by cars. Any observant user of London's roads will have noticed that many roads have been closed, entire sections have been delivered to cyclists and a plethora - please note that I use that much mis-used word correctly - of traffic lights impede the free flow of traffic. A bus suffers from this almost as much as a car. (Anti-motor car psychotics hail this as a great improvement) As the old story of the hare and the tortoise is also relevant to bus travel, any genuine attempt to improve the quality of bus services must address the issue of roads being fit for purpose. An example: in recent months Whipps Cross Roundabout and the north eastern end of Lea Bridge Road have been subject to "improvements" - aka sabotage - which have turned once free-flowing traffic into a permanent slow moving queue. Buses are also caught in this trap and consequently the journey time by bus has deteriorated enormously. I'd feel sorry for anyone trying to access Whipps Cross Hospital by bus, but please note: this problem was not caused by cars. It was caused by malicious saboteurs in Waltham Forest Council and TfL.
The main way to improve bus speeds isn't to give over space to cars, it is to provide bus lanes (ideally separate from the bike lanes!) designed for higher speeds, with proper enforcement to keep cars, whether loading or driving, out of them

It may be worth exploring if TfL could fit all buses with bus lane enforcement cameras, to keep cars out of the bus lane and keep the buses moving
 

stuu

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By no stretch of the imagination can the downturn in TfL's revenue be attributed to cars.

Most traveling by public transport in London involves steel wheels on steel rails which is not affected by cars. Any observant user of London's roads will have noticed that many roads have been closed, entire sections have been delivered to cyclists and a plethora - please note that I use that much mis-used word correctly - of traffic lights impede the free flow of traffic. A bus suffers from this almost as much as a car. (Anti-motor car psychotics hail this as a great improvement) As the old story of the hare and the tortoise is also relevant to bus travel, any genuine attempt to improve the quality of bus services must address the issue of roads being fit for purpose. An example: in recent months Whipps Cross Roundabout and the north eastern end of Lea Bridge Road have been subject to "improvements" - aka sabotage - which have turned once free-flowing traffic into a permanent slow moving queue. Buses are also caught in this trap and consequently the journey time by bus has deteriorated enormously. I'd feel sorry for anyone trying to access Whipps Cross Hospital by bus, but please note: this problem was not caused by cars. It was caused by malicious saboteurs in Waltham Forest Council and TfL.
What exactly is the traffic if not cars? The buses would move much more freely without them. Its a bizarre notion that buses or cyclists hold up traffic, when 99% of the time it is other cars
 

Railwaysceptic

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What exactly is the traffic if not cars? The buses would move much more freely without them. Its a bizarre notion that buses or cyclists hold up traffic, when 99% of the time it is other cars
Traffic consists of cars, taxis, vans and lorries, refuse vehicles, ambulances, fire engines, buses, police vehicles, funeral hearses and cyclists. I haven't noticed anyone suggesting that buses and cyclists are the cause of traffic queues. There's nothing bizarre in the idea that reducing capacity has consequences.
The main way to improve bus speeds isn't to give over space to cars, it is to provide bus lanes (ideally separate from the bike lanes!) designed for higher speeds, with proper enforcement to keep cars, whether loading or driving, out of them

It may be worth exploring if TfL could fit all buses with bus lane enforcement cameras, to keep cars out of the bus lane and keep the buses moving
Bus lanes and bus cameras were introduced during Ken Livingstone's period in office.
 

Trainbike46

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Bus lanes and bus cameras were introduced during Ken Livingstone's period in office.
I am aware london has bus lanes, and fixed location enforcement cameras, but I was suggesting:
- More bus lanes, covering more of the routes for longer
- Bus lanes separate from bike lanes, as sharing is less than ideal for both parties
- Better enforcement, by fitting every bus with an enforcement camera, so that stopping/parking in one is almost certain to get you fined, so there is fewer delays for buses in bus lanes
- In some places, banning taxis/private hire vehicles from bus lanes, if they regularly delay buses in a location
- In some cases it may be an option to increase speed limits in the bus lane only, like 30 or 40 in the bus lane, 20 elsewhere. However, only if that can safely be done in that specific location, obviously
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I’ve travelled on the central core a couple of times now & it was so much quieter than I was anticipating. Great for the passenger, but not so much for TfLs finances. Would not be surprised if did lead to some financial issues a few months down the road. Perhaps once LHR is connected to the core, we’ll see an uplift.
Im sure once through running is instigated you will see a significant uplift. Also they will cull the central line service frequency to save a few more quid.
 

Wolfie

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Bozo "agreed" with Osborne's/Treasury's wizzard-wheeze of slashing TfLs operating subsidy on his way out of the door to a life of doing even less for his living than the grand photo-op that was his ruinous Mayoralty.

Those idiots went along with the comfortable assumption that because (shock!Horror!!) TfL actually was on its way to a relatively neutral budget that they could get away with this and there would be no consequence - Bozo's favourite justification - for doing so because London would just keep generating Fares Revenue to cover the gap this would leave.

Almost nobody bothered to ask "but what if......?" at the time and the usually cautious Treasury was presumably happy to run without the safety net/insurance policy because things had been fine since at least WWII. What could possibly go wrong?

We'll Covid happened only four years later. London stopped "generating" much of anything and the rest is the largely unacknowledged sad story we are currently living through.

TfL are not in the crap because of payroll, or headcount, or incompetent management or any of the other safe and lazy excuses that help fog the situation for the morons currently in charge of everything. They did this. The Government.

And It wasn't Khan's fares-freeze - that came to a grand total of revenue forgone that would barely get TfL through five weeks of operating. So let's dispense with that handy bit of whatabouting.

The creature currently parked like a fat donations-sponge in 10 Downing St owns the blame for why £500M is currently such an insurmountable "issue" for TfL - who haven't got much "fat" that can actually be cut to meet this stupid demand without harm.

But "must be fair to Taxpayers" right?

This administration is even less able than usual to try pulling that stupid sound bite off.

There's a Blue Wall to shore-up/bribe/keep happy somehow. And it doesn't run anywhere near anywhere TfL does.
An excellent post. I would say though that screwing London does actually screw the Blue Wall. The big problem for the current government is that the Red and Blue Walls have pretty much zero common interest.
 

Goldfish62

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By no stretch of the imagination can the downturn in TfL's revenue be attributed to cars.

Most traveling by public transport in London involves steel wheels on steel rails which is not affected by cars.
Ahem! The number of bus passenger journeys in London outweighs those by rail several-fold.
 
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What a deeply deluded and unpleasant Tory-shill says:
By no stretch of the imagination can the downturn in TfL's revenue be attributed to cars.

Most traveling by public transport in London involves steel wheels on steel rails which is not affected by cars. Any observant user of London's roads will have noticed that many roads have been closed, entire sections have been delivered to cyclists and a plethora - please note that I use that much mis-used word correctly - of traffic lights impede the free flow of traffic. A bus suffers from this almost as much as a car. (Anti-motor car psychotics hail this as a great improvement) As the old story of the hare and the tortoise is also relevant to bus travel, any genuine attempt to improve the quality of bus services must address the issue of roads being fit for purpose. An example: in recent months Whipps Cross Roundabout and the north eastern end of Lea Bridge Road have been subject to "improvements" - aka sabotage - which have turned once free-flowing traffic into a permanent slow moving queue. Buses are also caught in this trap and consequently the journey time by bus has deteriorated enormously. I'd feel sorry for anyone trying to access Whipps Cross Hospital by bus, but please note: this problem was not caused by cars. It was caused by malicious saboteurs in Waltham Forest Council and TfL.

Your ideas about health etc. are simplistic and believing that cars are the cause of everything is facile.


Feverish, irrational nonsense! You didn't foresee Covid and nor did anyone else.

Nobody had to "forsee" Covid, just like Station Planners don't need to "forsee" people ending up in front of a Train to include Platform edge doors on a revamp - it's called insurance against a likely disaster.

I'm guessing you know very, very little about "insurance" except to whine about how expensive yours is for your car.

You are literally every argument for why local Politics should never be hijacked by the loudest (and stupidest) voices who "think" they are all that matters.

If you think people basically wanting to cut car usage in a heavily congested and polluted City are "Psychotic" you're the one that should have a long, hard think about priorities - it doesn't seem like you have any worth a damn except spouting this bile on here.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Im sure once through running is instigated you will see a significant uplift. Also they will cull the central line service frequency to save a few more quid.
Rather sick of everyone thinking the opening of the Elizabeth core means the Central line becomes irrelevant. It may come as a surprise to some people, but not every Central line journey has Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Liverpool Street or Stratford as both an origin and destination. There are many, many journeys to and from Oxford Circus, Bank, White City and Holborn for a start.
 

Railwaysceptic

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What a deeply deluded and unpleasant Tory-shill says:


Nobody had to "forsee" Covid, just like Station Planners don't need to "forsee" people ending up in front of a Train to include Platform edge doors on a revamp - it's called insurance against a likely disaster.

I'm guessing you know very, very little about "insurance" except to whine about how expensive yours is for your car.

You are literally every argument for why local Politics should never be hijacked by the loudest (and stupidest) voices who "think" they are all that matters.

If you think people basically wanting to cut car usage in a heavily congested and polluted City are "Psychotic" you're the one that should have a long, hard think about priorities - it doesn't seem like you have any worth a damn except spouting this bile on here.
It's notable that you don't attempt to rebut any of the arguments I've put forward. Incidentally, I never vote Tory and I recognised Boris Johnson for what he was long before most people did.

Ahem! The number of bus passenger journeys in London outweighs those by rail several-fold.
Including London Underground and DLR? Is that the number of journeys or journey miles?

I am aware london has bus lanes, and fixed location enforcement cameras, but I was suggesting:
- More bus lanes, covering more of the routes for longer
- Bus lanes separate from bike lanes, as sharing is less than ideal for both parties
- Better enforcement, by fitting every bus with an enforcement camera, so that stopping/parking in one is almost certain to get you fined, so there is fewer delays for buses in bus lanes
- In some places, banning taxis/private hire vehicles from bus lanes, if they regularly delay buses in a location
- In some cases it may be an option to increase speed limits in the bus lane only, like 30 or 40 in the bus lane, 20 elsewhere. However, only if that can safely be done in that specific location, obviously
I believe the number of bus lanes has been slightly reduced by handing some over to cyclists. Most roads in London are not wide enough to have both a bus lane and a separate cycle lane. Private hire vehicles are banned from bus lanes except to pick up or drop off. Cameras inside buses were introduced by Ken Livingstone.
 
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Trainbike46

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More feverish, irrational nonsense. It's notable that you don't attempt to rebut any of the arguments I've put forward. Incidentally, I never vote Tory and I recognised Boris Johnson for what he was long before most people did.


Including London Underground and DLR? Is that the number of journeys or journey miles?


I believe the number of bus lanes has been slightly reduced by handing some over to cyclists. Most roads in London are not wide enough to have both a bus lane and a separate cycle lane. Private hire vehicles are banned from bus lanes except to pick up or drop of. Cameras inside buses were introduced by Ken Livingstone.
Drop-off and pick-up are the most disruptive to bus service though, so that should absolutely be banned!
 

Broucek

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A bus suffers from this almost as much as a car....
In my part of N London, the LTNs have pushed traffic onto main roads. As a result, buses have slowed down considerably (bus lanes would not be physically possible). Because of this I now use the bus LESS and am more likely to use my car...

As a side comment, the LTN has also diverted traffic away from large houses owned by the comparatively well-off and towards flats over shops populated by the less wealthy. All done by a "centre-left" council :s
 

Railwaysceptic

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Drop-off and pick-up are the most disruptive to bus service though, so that should absolutely be banned!
That's an extreme attitude. Moorfields Eye Hospital is in City Road which, if memory serves, has a bus lane outside. If someone with severe mobility problems has an appointment at Moorfields, they should be denied the right to be dropped off outside?

In my part of N London, the LTNs have pushed traffic onto main roads. As a result, buses have slowed down considerably (bus lanes would not be physically possible). Because of this I now use the bus LESS and am more likely to use my car...

As a side comment, the LTN has also diverted traffic away from large houses owned by the comparatively well-off and towards flats over shops populated by the less wealthy. All done by a "centre-left" council :s
Thank you. A balanced point of view from someone who, like me, has experience of how this policy works in practice.
 

SynthD

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As a side comment, the LTN has also diverted traffic away from large houses owned by the comparatively well-off and towards flats over shops populated by the less wealthy. All done by a "centre-left" council
It is a good thing that the council are not playing to their base. It’s functioning government.
 
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