ASLEF accept (subject to members agreement) 5% Scotrail Pay Offer

[dk1]

I don’t believe you‘re a driver for a minute. This reads like an enthusiasts essay on the way they think a driver should be behaving.

How on earth do you ‘negotiate’ with the signaller? He tells you what’s happening and why you’re being held, it’s not a bargaining opportunity to get the train moving.

That stood out for me too.

 

[Lancy99]

I normally negotiate by pressing the SG..

 

[380101]

I don't know the detail, I'm afraid. Hopefully someone else will be along shortly to elaborate further. I understand that it was a commitment of sorts of bring Sundays inside by 2027, though, one that'd presumably tie ASLEF's hands in terms of further negotiation on that subject.

Sunday as part of the working week is part of the ASLEF charter which means ASLEF negotiation teams at every company that currently have Sundays outside the working week must aim to include it in any pay deal where possible.

It is certainly not ASLEF that are stopping Sunday being part of the working week but the TOCs who don't want to pay the big salary increase to bring it about. You'd be looking at probably an £8k increase to the basic drivers salary to have any chance of drivers voting for it and so far no company in charge of Scotrail - private or publicly owned - has dug deep enough to even get it on the ballot paper!

 

[dk1]

I normally negotiate by pressing the SG..

And then do as you are instructed. I can’t ever recall meeting somewhere in the middle lol.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd personally like to see pay increases linked to passenger growth and freight growth across the industry.

How would you measure it ?

If we are nearing 80% of pre pandemic levels and passenger growth is increased by 20% does that mean I can get a 20% pay increase ? Can we link passenger growth in Scotland to passenger growth in Devon ? Some of the stations I serve have the highest passenger numbers in the country. Can my pay rise be linked to those stations please ?

 

[the sniper]

How on earth do you ‘negotiate’ with the signaller?

*Yawn* 320320 demonstrating how to stay in the 1980's with their approach to work!

EDIT: For visually impaired members, as per forum rules, for illustrative purposes, this post features a memegenerator.net image of Terry Tibbs, fictional 80's businessman & negotiator extraordinaire, from the television show 'Fonejacker', on the blower/telephone engaging in a Driver/Signaller negotiation. The line, "Driver of 1A11, TALK TO ME" is overlaid. If you can't see this image, fear not, you really haven't missed out.

 

[DorkingMain]

I'd personally like to see pay increases linked to passenger growth and freight growth across the industry.

Do this would really focus the industry on adapting to new consumer trends.

But passenger numbers are generally not something drivers or other railway staff have control over, neither are they a reflection of their value as employees or the quality of the work they do.

Staff shouldn't have to accept massive real terms pay cuts because of the failings of their (even better paid) bosses.

 

[choochoochoo]

The only negotiating I do is when I'm empties back to the depot and am ready to go before my booked time !!

 

[Lancy99]

This ^

 

[Tomnick]

Sunday as part of the working week is part of the ASLEF charter which means ASLEF negotiation teams at every company that currently have Sundays outside the working week must aim to include it in any pay deal where possible.

It is certainly not ASLEF that are stopping Sunday being part of the working week but the TOCs who don't want to pay the big salary increase to bring it about. You'd be looking at probably an £8k increase to the basic drivers salary to have any chance of drivers voting for it and so far no company in charge of Scotrail - private or publicly owned - has dug deep enough to even get it on the ballot paper!

I understand all that, in particular the value of Sundays in this pay talks. That's the point, though - would this offer have effectively formed an agreement to bring Sundays inside within five years for a mere 4.2% now?

 

[DorkingMain]

I normally negotiate by pressing the SG..

As I'm sure you're aware but it's probably worth noting for those who aren't, it's in the rule book to press SG when held at a signal unless the reason for being held is obvious.

 

[380101]

I understand all that, in particular the value of Sundays in this pay talks. That's the point, though - would this offer have effectively formed an agreement to bring Sundays inside within five years for a mere 4.2% now?

No, the offer only included an agreement to form a joint working party to explore how to bring Sunday in as part of the working week with an aim for that to happen no later than Dec 2027.

Any deal to make Sunday part of the working week would absolutely have to be put to a vote of the members following the conclusion of the joint working party meetings/negotiations.

 

[ComUtoR]

I normally negotiate by pressing the SG..

Image posted is from Gravity Falls, using "wait' to represent Signaller response to SG button used.

 

[choochoochoo]

As I'm sure you're aware but it's probably worth noting for those who aren't, it's in the rule book to press SG when held at a signal unless the reason for being held is obvious.

Surely the only obvious reason you're ever held is you can see there's something in the section ahead of you.

So if you unless you're able to see around a corner or that far ahead, its SG every time. But we digress......

 

[Siggy1980s]

I don’t believe you‘re a driver for a minute. This reads like an enthusiasts essay on the way they think a driver should be behaving.

How on earth do you ‘negotiate’ with the signaller? He tells you what’s happening and why you’re being held, it’s not a bargaining opportunity to get the train moving.

Got to admit, the part about negotiating with the signaller, I nearly wet myself.

 

[320320]

*Yawn* 320320 demonstrating how to stay in the 1980's with their approach to work!

Let the professionals worry about the safe operation of the train.

Got to admit, the part about negotiating with the signaller, I nearly wet myself.

It’s a bizarre statement, not one I’ve ever heard a fellow driver make.

 

[43066]

Surely the only obvious reason you're ever held is you can see there's something in the section ahead of you.

So if you unless you're able to see around a corner or that far ahead, its SG every time. But we digress......

Or (say) you can see the route is set across a junction ahead of you.

I was also taught to press it immediately if no obvious reason. If there was an obvious reason, press it after two minutes anyway.

It’s a bizarre statement, not one I’ve ever heard a fellow driver make.

Also completely agreed. That post smacks slightly to me of someone just saying “I’m a driver” to add weight to what they’ve written.

 

[Christmas]

I think ScotRail and Transport Scotland will have to realise that drivers want a substantial increase. 9 per cent may swing it but let's remember that in Scotland drivers pay much more income tax than their counterparts in England. Additionally the forthcoming Low Emission Zones will mean that many drivers will have to go out and buy themselves new cars, simply to drive themselves to work and, let's not forget the increasing cost of motoring. All of these are real concerns to drivers and this needs to be offset somewhat in an improved offer.

 

[320320]

I think ScotRail and Transport Scotland will have to realise that drivers want a substantial increase. 9 per cent may swing it but let's remember that in Scotland drivers pay much more income tax than their counterparts in England. Additionally the forthcoming Low Emission Zones will mean that many drivers will have to go out and buy themselves new cars, simply to drive themselves to work and, let's not forget the increasing cost of motoring. All of these are real concerns to drivers and this needs to be offset somewhat in an improved offer.

I put the figures into the income tax calculator on money saving expert and it shows that I paid £1800 more than a driver in England. Its daylight robbery.

 

[TootTootToot]

TOCs themselves are also not losing money, they’re being paid a management fee to operate the business which enables them to generate a profit from the enterprise (otherwise they’d hand the keys back

How much profit did Abellio make during their tenure?

 

[Deltic1961]

But everyone else out there on a decent salary is paying the extra tax, not just train drivers.

 

[507020]

I think ScotRail and Transport Scotland will have to realise that drivers want a substantial increase. 9 per cent may swing it but let's remember that in Scotland drivers pay much more income tax than their counterparts in England. Additionally the forthcoming Low Emission Zones will mean that many drivers will have to go out and buy themselves new cars, simply to drive themselves to work and, let's not forget the increasing cost of motoring. All of these are real concerns to drivers and this needs to be offset somewhat in an improved offer.

This is a very good point, but also remember that unlike England, Scotland has electric car charging points which make electric cars unaffected by the price of petrol a realistic option for drivers buying new cars up there.

But everyone else out there on a decent salary is paying the extra tax, not just train drivers.

So everyone in Scotland needs a bigger pay rise than their English enemies counterparts, however I do suppose they get a lot more for their taxes than we do.

 

[ComUtoR]

But everyone else out there on a decent salary is paying the extra tax, not just train drivers.

If Scotland was independent; would income tax be lower or higher ? Do you think they would nationalise the railway GSR (Great Scottish Railways) ?

 

[507020]

If Scotland was independent; would income tax be lower or higher ? Do you think they would nationalise the railway GSR (Great Scottish Railways) ?

I’m sure Scotland’s Railway would be vertically integrated, with track access charges only payable by English trains and there would certainly be blanket electrification across the entire Scottish network, while England still runs 150s.

 

[Efini92]

Could you explain this a little further please. I don't understand how you would negotiate with the Signaller ?

Cheers in advance.

Or (say) you can see the route is set across a junction ahead of you.

I was also taught to press it immediately if no obvious reason. If there was an obvious reason, press it after two minutes anyway.



Also completely agreed. That post smacks slightly to me of someone just saying “I’m a driver” to add weight to what they’ve written.

Surely being trained as a negotiator is a productivity item.

 

[bluesfromagun]

Speaking as a driver, this is broadly irrelevant. If your business is losing money, how on earth does it justify a pay rise for staff?

In most other walks of life, if the business does well, so do the staff. Why should the railways be a special case?

And let's be honest, there's numerous ways drivers can influence customer experience. Firstly, there's personal performance. Book on duty on time; don't delay your train for reasons you could otherwise avoid; be helpful and diligent - offer help to supervisors when spare (we all have those colleagues who do all they can to fall off the radar); provide genuinely useful customer service (eg: when asked a question don't just grunt, shrug the shoulders and go "I don't know, I'm a driver").

Then there's in the execution of driving duties. You can maximise performance of the unit to maintain/recover time. Plenty on these forums will adjust their driving style as appropriate (in a safe manner), and things like being on time really help improve public perception. If held at a signal, call the signaller and negotiate. I've done it enough times - sometimes you actually have been forgotten about or a message hasn't been passed to me/the signaller from control and overall delay is minimised by an efficient bit of comms. Sometimes a well timed call can prevent poor regulation too.

Then there's information sharing. Plenty of drivers wont pass details to guards or make announcements themselves and all these things have an impact on customer experience.

So yes, actually, there's a fair bit drivers can do to influence passenger or freight growth...

This is comedy gold. Next time I'm sat outside a major station waiting on a platform, I'll just give the poor overworked signaller a wee ring and negotiate over which platform I go into. I can't imagine for a moment that he or she would only become even more likely to hold me outside for as long as reasonably possible.

 

[skyhigh]

This is a very good point, but also remember that unlike England, Scotland has electric car charging points

Last I checked they did exist in England too...

 

[507020]

This is comedy gold. Next time I'm sat outside a major station waiting on a platform, I'll just give the poor overworked signaller a wee ring and negotiate over which platform I go into. I can't imagine for a moment that he or she would only become even more likely to hold me outside for as long as reasonably possible.

I have been on trains which have been subject to exactly this kind of negotiation. An example is negotiating to be signalled into a platform usually used by other services, such as Northern using Platform 3 at Southport when 4-6 are occupied. It is a good idea to enter a platform as soon as possible to prevent the passengers from becoming restless or potentially worse.

Last I checked they did exist in England too...

I very very rarely see them in any parts of England I go to and I haven’t spent a huge amount of time in Scotland, but when I did there were absolutely hundreds of electric car charging points everywhere, even in some extremely rural areas. It’s jarring how much less investment England sees.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Hahahahahaha!!

 

[Bantamzen]

But passenger numbers are generally not something drivers or other railway staff have control over, neither are they a reflection of their value as employees or the quality of the work they do.

Not directly, but drivers do play a part in the passenger experience. Be it how you drive, how you offer information about the journey & any delays, offering help to passengers if you have time, even just looking like you want to be there when walking down the platform. Its not something that is easily measured, but if passenger satisfaction goes up alongside increased traffic, then you've got a bit more to bargain with.

Staff shouldn't have to accept massive real terms pay cuts because of the failings of their (even better paid) bosses.

And in normal times I would agree, but the fact that a 4.2% rise is way below inflation is to do with matters at least partly outside the control of even governments. Unless there is an easy way to persuade the Russian government to walk away from Ukraine & the Chinese government to come out of hiding & get supply chains back to normal. We could of course try giving the whole country a 10+% pay rise, and I'd love that. However this would almost certainly just give inflation a turbo boost & before long we'd all need wheelbarrows instead of wallets to carry any cash when out & about.

Sometimes you've got to look at the bigger picture because things are pretty unstable right now.

This is comedy gold. Next time I'm sat outside a major station waiting on a platform, I'll just give the poor overworked signaller a wee ring and negotiate over which platform I go into. I can't imagine for a moment that he or she would only become even more likely to hold me outside for as long as reasonably possible.

I seriously hope that this would not be the case, being spiteful to a colleagues & their passengers because they are busy is not a good look. If this is true, then perhaps such rail staff might want to think again why public opinion of the industry might be damaged.