ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers

[EM2]

The real losers with this type of compaign are the young white males starting out in the world dreaming of becoming train drivers (many of the like on here no doubt) who will face an even bigger hill to climb to achieve their dreams. I'd say I would probably have no chance of becoming a train Driver if I was setting out to do it now, I was lucky I did it when I did , before campaigns such as this, and the crazy world of extreme positive discrimination.

If they are good enough they'll get the job, no matter what the competition, surely?

 

[baz962]

And whats to say that some people who read the Mumsnet advert didn't Google how to be a train driver as a mum and have that pop up on Google?

We're not talking about positive discrimination here. We're talking about letting under represented groups know that it's a viable career for them and giving them the same chance to apply as everyone else. The driver selection process is a great leveller. If you can't pass the assessments you won't get a job. (I know there's evidence to suggest it's not perfect, but that's for another thread on another day)

And you know what, frankly, if a load of women drivers got pregnant and had to work shifted hours, good for them. Having a child is the greatest thing. Let them.

Happy to work 1800-0200 every day as result. Love it.

Childcare full time is hideously expensive. If I'm bunged out on extremes of shifts while my wife is working in her job, I'll still be far better off financially than my accommodated colleagues, as I won't be forking out a grand a month for nursery/childminders etc etc....

Did you read my post properly. I want equality, many of me fellow drivers are female and bame, it wasn't me that posted about women getting pregnant etc, you are quoting others. I said the best people should get the job, I believe that you can easily find and apply and if that's too hard then maybe the job isn't for you and that's to the white males too. Do some work get on Google and apply. And you proved my point with mums net, if finding and applying and researching is too hard, then the training will stump you.

 

[Sweetjesus]

Railway industry isn't unique industry facing the under-representation of BME people problem.

I am a member of BME and work in an industry where BME people are very under-represented. It's not nice working in a such industry like this for a variety of reasons that does not include discrimination (thankfully).

I'm glad they're doing something about it. I remember growing up, nobody ever talks about railway industry because not many of us knew it. The only time I heard about railway industry was from my white friends who had their family members working in such industry. The same friends are happily working in the railway now. I feel this is the main reason why not many BME people are applying for train driver jobs.

If we want to have a truly equal society, then we must assume that everyone is equal to best of their abilities. Where there are inequality, a reasonable adjustment should be made for the betterment of the society.

In this case, the inequality is that BME people are not being made aware of the railway industry due to having no connections to it and the reasonable adjustment is exactly what ASLEF is doing right now.

 

[AlterEgo]

If a person (be they male female black white etc etc) wants to achieve something they will set out and do it.

Yes, if they know it can be achieved. Which many don’t, because of reasons which are been tiresomely explained already.

 

[GrimShady]

I'm still firmly of the opinion that all this does is create division the population by giving people labels. "BAME" sounds like something those muppets at Virign Trains would have come up with. Some would argue it causes elitism.

I still do not believe that the workforce should in anyway be part of social engineering. I don't give a hoot where the workforce comes from or what they are. If the numbers are made up by competent and loyal people that's the end as far as I'm concerned. This should be left to develop on its own naturally.

One thing I will say is that these days there seems to exist a expectation of the employer to adapt to the life choices people make. In my view if someone wants to go and raise children, fine then do so but not at the employers expense. I don't agree that jobs should be held open or that the rest of the workforce should pick up the slack. It's not the employers responsibility to support ones own life choices.

 

[AlterEgo]

The real losers with this type of compaign are the young white males starting out in the world dreaming of becoming train drivers (many of the like on here no doubt) who will face an even bigger hill to climb to achieve their dreams.

Hahahahaha! So you’re against more competition for these people?

Some stats on the only 4 female high speed drivers at my depot.
1x just had her key taken off her due to numerous incidents
1x off long term sick
1x off trains due to a grievance
1x rarely drives trains as she is too busy on radio stations talking about the rest of us being male pale and stale.
Another came to the depot for a year, went off sick almost straight away and never drove a train here before going back to where she came from.
And guess who carries the burden for these? Everyone else.

You should be aware that you are identifiable. Be careful.

 

[EM2]

I still do not believe that the workforce should in anyway be part of social engineering. I don't give a hoot where the workforce comes from or what they are. If the numbers are made up by competent and loyal people that's the end as far as I'm concerned. This should be left to develop on its own naturally.

So surely you'd be in favour of the biggest possible pool to find competent and loyal people?

One thing I will say is that these days there seems to exist a expectation of the employer to adapt to the life choices people make. In my view if someone wants to go and raise children, fine then do so but not at the employers expense. I don't agree that jobs should be held open or that the rest of the workforce should pick up the slack. It's not the employers responsibility to support ones own life choices.

You're saying that you don't agree with maternity leave?

 

[GrimShady]

So surely you'd be in favour of the biggest possible pool to find competent and loyal people?

You're saying that you don't agree with maternity leave?

Oh of course I am but is the industry is experiencing a "brain drain"? If not this seems as simply an exercise in demographics or scoring political points. My own unions full of it at the moment too.

That's for a separate discussion.

 

[bramling]

Railway industry isn't unique industry facing the under-representation of BME people problem.

I am a member of BME and work in an industry where BME people are very under-represented. It's not nice working in a such industry like this for a variety of reasons that does not include discrimination (thankfully).

I'm glad they're doing something about it. I remember growing up, nobody ever talks about railway industry because not many of us knew it. The only time I heard about railway industry was from my white friends who had their family members working in such industry. The same friends are happily working in the railway now. I feel this is the main reason why not many BME people are applying for train driver jobs.

If we want to have a truly equal society, then we must assume that everyone is equal to best of their abilities. Where there are inequality, a reasonable adjustment should be made for the betterment of the society.

In this case, the inequality is that BME people are not being made aware of the railway industry due to having no connections to it and the reasonable adjustment is exactly what ASLEF is doing right now.

How on earth can anyone say a particular group are "not being made aware" of the industry?

Most people do their homework before pursuing a particular career path, and I don’t see why this should be any different for any one, regardless of what group or groups they belong to. With the wealth of information available at the click of a button on-line nowadays there’s even less excuse than in the past.

A lot of people in the industry have got where they are thanks to effort and hard work, in the case of drivers almost certainly through a number of years, in some cases quite a few years, in other jobs like station staff, guard or even trolley-dolly. In all honesty I find it slightly disingenuous that people expect the industry to come reaching out.

 

[EM2]

How on earth can anyone say a particular group are "not being made aware" of the industry?

Easily. I was once employed in an industry that I knew absolutely nothing about, didn't even know it existed, until a friend told their friend that I was looking for a job.

 

[Sweetjesus]

How on earth can anyone say a particular group are "not being made aware" of the industry?

Most people do their homework before pursuing a particular career path, and I don’t see why this should be any different for any one, regardless of what group or groups they belong to. With the wealth of information available at the click of a button on-line nowadays there’s even less excuse than in the past.

A lot of people in the industry have got where they are thanks to effort and hard work, in the case of drivers almost certainly through a number of years, in some cases quite a few years, in other jobs like station staff, guard or even trolley-dolly. In all honesty I find it slightly disingenuous that people expect the industry to come reaching out.

Very easily.

Look, we could spend all day along arguing whether it's minorities' responsibility to find a career they wish to work in or not. The fact remains is that rail industry still have under-representation of BAME people.

Therefore we should investigate and see how we can fix this problem. A good solution shouldn't involve quotas and/or any other methods that result in a major decline in quality of recruits.

History has taught us many times, when there are a divide within a society, whether that be a skin colour, financial, social class, etc - it never ends well. This is a small step towards better and more equal society. We can't get to there if we keep things the same simply because 'this is how we’ve always done it'.

 

[irish_rail]

Easily. I was once employed in an industry that I knew absolutely nothing about, didn't even know it existed, until a friend told their friend that I was looking for a job.

I'm pretty certain everyone knows what a train is and that they (currently) require a driver.

 

[GrimShady]

Are the TOCs having issue recruiting drivers?

Are they not competent individuals?

Is there something wrong with the current workforce?

 

[irish_rail]

Are the TOCs having issue recruiting drivers?

Are they not competent individuals?

Is there something wrong with the current workforce?

U would think so wouldn't you. Except the railways are safer than ever.....

 

[GrimShady]

U would think so wouldn't you. Except the railways are safer than ever.....

If the answer to the questions above is no then the whole thing is a farce to gain political points and cause division. It's not fair to be using people as pawns in a political game.

 

[GrimShady]

I'd just like to post this letter sent into Nautilus International - Merchant Navy Officers Union. Its was published in this month's newsletter "The Telegraph".

Please note that males are banned from Nautilus’ Women’s Forum.

What’s the point of Nautilus promoting women in maritime?

Brace yourself – I’m going to say something probably seen as contentious... Also, something that so many of my fellow seafarers are already thinking, but feel unable to say, for fear of being called sexist. However, having just received the latest Telegraph, I feel I must now vent. The front page says it all: ‘Why are women stuck at 3% of the Maritime Workforce? Nautilus and industry partners press for change’. Has no one perhaps thought that, just maybe, only 3% of women in the industry want to be at sea?? Exactly what do Nautilus (and their industry partners of course) propose they do to increase numbers? Put a gun to women’s heads and FORCE them to sea in order to increase numbers? It’s high time Nautilus amongst others accept that there’s only a certain amount of women that find work in the maritime industry appealing, and move on. I, along with many others, are becoming sick of turning almost every page to be confronted by token women on almost every page, paraded like some kind of exhibit to gain some kind of kudos. It’s thoroughly embarrassing. You preach equality, yet effectively encourage segregation by providing the Nautilus’ Women’s Forum (page 36); you attend and make representations at the TUC’s Women’s Conference (page 37). I could go on and on. Surely, if you truly believed in equality, you would be encouraging them to sit under a common banner, not a gender divided one. The more this industry continues to highlight and place on a pedestal the successes of women in the industry, the further you drive the wedge. Has anyone ever considered that as a male in the industry, you are perceivably at a disadvantage because there are no headlines in it? Many of my male colleagues feel devalued and unimportant because of the growing situation. Finally, many will probably read this and just assume I am a sexist. However, know this. I work on a ship and in a company with many females, all of whom integrate seamlessly and without fuss with their male counterparts; they are accepted and treated as equals, and in many cases give the males a good run for their money. Also, my girlfriend also works at sea, and fits perfectly into the foregoing statement. So for those who will label me, bear this in mind before judging.

 

[tiptoptaff]

GrimShady - Tonnage Tax Cadets and the devaluing of the British CoC is a far greater issue for contemporary British officers of any gender, than NuMast encouraging more women to apply. Ultimately, whoever applies and trains as a cadet these days is either going to find themselves unemployed at the end with a useless CoC or working on a cruise ship.

(I'm ex-MN, btw, where I trained on bulkers as a tonnage tax cadet)

 

[tiptoptaff]

It doesn't matter that TOCs aren't struggling to recruit, but it still doesn't mean they're getting the best candidates out there.

If you're really good enough to get the job, it doesn't matter that more people are going to be applying, does it?

 

[GrimShady]

GrimShady - Tonnage Tax Cadets and the devaluing of the British CoC is a far greater issue for contemporary British officers of any gender, than NuMast encouraging more women to apply. Ultimately, whoever applies and trains as a cadet these days is either going to find themselves unemployed at the end with a useless CoC or working on a cruise ship.

(I'm ex-MN, btw, where I trained on bulkers as a tonnage tax cadet)

100% fully agree yet this what the Nautilus chooses as it's champion project.

It doesn't matter that TOCs aren't struggling to recruit, but it still doesn't mean they're getting the best candidates out there.

If you're really good enough to get the job, it doesn't matter that more people are going to be applying, does it?

Then surely if the workforce is adequate and of good competency all is well? What do they want, drivers with degrees now? Surely if you're good enough to get the job then everyones happy. Unless the standards are being lowered to get people through the door?

 

[tiptoptaff]

100% fully agree yet this what the Nautilus chooses as it's champion project.



Then surely if the workforce is adequate and of good competency all is well? What do they want, drivers with degrees now? Surely if you're good enough to get the job then everyones happy. Unless the standards are being lowered to get people through the door?

But this isn't what is happening - they're not lowering standards here to get more people of a certain group through the door, they're just trying to get more people from those groups to apply than already do. And you will see an increase in those groups getting jobs, not because standards are lower, but because they're up to the standard, but have never thought to apply before.

 

[GrimShady]

But this isn't what is happening - they're not lowering standards here to get more people of a certain group through the door, they're just trying to get more people from those groups to apply than already do. And you will see an increase in those groups getting jobs, not because standards are lower, but because they're up to the standard, but have never thought to apply before.

Granted, I understand what you're saying. My point is everyone has to meet the standard to pass the process so what's the point here?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Granted, I understand what you're saying. My point is everyone has to meet the standard to pass the process so what's the point here?

The point is that women and BAME groups aren't applying, and this is looking to address why

 

[GrimShady]

The point is that women and BAME groups aren't applying, and this is looking to address why

Again why does it matter who applies as long as standards are maintained?

 

[EM2]

Again why does it matter who applies as long as standards are maintained?

Because you might not (in fact, probably aren't) get the very best people possible.
Look at what happens when English football clubs get players from across the world, rather than they restricted themselves to the UK and Ireland.
The League became popular, world-class players want to play here, and the clubs improve.

 

[GrimShady]

Because you might not (in fact, probably aren't) get the very best people possible.
Look at what happens when English football clubs get players from across the world, rather than they restricted themselves to the UK and Ireland.
The League became popular, world-class players want to play here, and the clubs improve.

EM2 I'm trying to establish what "the very best possible people" are. Nobody seems to be able to tell me what exactly is it ASLEF means by that. Only the very best should already be employed.

• What more is there the TOC is looking for than applicants meeting the standard?
• Do standards need to be raised?
• Is there something wrong with the current workforce?
• Is there an attitude problem with the workforce?
• Is there a morale problem?

 

[tiptoptaff]

There is no doubt that there are people out there who are better suited to the job than some who've got it, but haven't applied for whatever reason, including women and BAME groups. We're not getting the best people for the job, merely the best of who's applied.
If more people overall apply, you've got a better chance of getting higher quality applicants

 

[GB]

again, what defines "better suited" or "best people" or "higher quality"?

 

[EM2]

Deleted.

 

[EM2]

again, what defines "better suited" or "best people" or "higher quality"?

People who do better in the recruitment process.

 

[GrimShady]

People who do better in the recruitment process.

In what regard?

"better suited" to me sounds like there are problems with current quality of applicants.