At privatisation, who decided (and how) the fare setting TOC for each flow?

[ForTheLoveOf]

Title, really. Was it originally allocated by distance covered by eacc TOC along the shortest route, or was it manual? I can't imagine it was entirely manual, as there are millions of combinations and a lot of seeming anomalies in terms of TOCs setting fares for flows they don't serve at all (or for example Stafford to Cosford being XC but Stafford to Shifnal being WMT, despite the fact you have to take the same operators' services!).

Secondary question - at each fare setting round, are the prices manually set or is it an automated process? I'd imagine there's simply not enough time between each round (and people employed in the pricing division) to set every fare manually, but it's probably a mixture then?

 

[pdeaves]

The 'lead operator' was one of the BR sub-sectors (e.g. InterCity CrossCountry, ScotRail, etc.) and BR defined them as convenient at the time.

 

[Gareth Marston]

the ORIGINAL intention was that the private TOC's would have complete freedom on setting whatever fares they liked. However a group of Tory rebels got concessions built in to the 1993 Railways Act which resulted in Season Tickets and what were BR Saver and Super Saver Fares being regulated.

The Jack and Jill Book of how to privatize an incompetent inefficient Nationalized Industry assumed that the private sector would arrive and wave its magic wand and the whole thing would be more efficient and fares would come down so who set a fare was inconsequential.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Horribly complicated by the now forgotten "Moderation of Competition" rules.

In order to protect these dynamic , thrusting entrepreneurs - all ticket flows on routes up to (I think) 80% of gross revenue were identified as being "owned" by in the first instance a BR Profit Centre , later a TOC and "benchmarked as such - so that (say) Rugby to Euston was allocated to West Coast , but included were Rugby to Queens Park and Rugby to Kensington Olympia (to stop any competitor muscling in on what we now call open access) , this led to a colossal amount of work for the operators and of course to the then Office of Rail Regulation which kept the data and "confirmed" ....

With the exception of the first West Coast Franchise and extensions , this was pretty much forgotten about as refranchising , extensions and "letter agreements" recast the original post 1996 world.

A superb example of how a fairly simple structure got bureaucratized and contraculaized.

There is probably much more , but I was merely an operator.....

 

[adrock1976]

Back in 2007 when the former Central Trains and Silverlink franchises were carved up alongside with the former Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston (then operated by Virgin Rail Group), did the fares from south of Birmingham to Preston and Scotland transfer from Virgin Rail Group to Arriva (the present day operator of the Cross-country franchise)?

If so, that would explain that anomaly as there are no Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston these days.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in 2007 when the former Central Trains and Silverlink franchises were carved up alongside with the former Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston (then operated by Virgin Rail Group), did the fares from south of Birmingham to Preston and Scotland transfer from Virgin Rail Group to Arriva (the present day operator of the Cross-country franchise)?

If so, that would explain that anomaly as there are no Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston these days.

I can only suggest an email to the UK's genuine fares expert - Barry S Doe. ([email protected])

Despite fares simplification "measures" - there remain some / many contradictions. It was pointed out tome by a very astute York conductor that there was some ludicrous cheap promotion fare dating back to Northern Spirit (anyone remember them?) , for a West Yorkshire stations to Glasgow via Settle and their once a day service. This fare was "stuck in" , despite the service having been long withdrawn. I ha a word with someone at ATOC and it was removed.......

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Back in 2007 when the former Central Trains and Silverlink franchises were carved up alongside with the former Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston (then operated by Virgin Rail Group), did the fares from south of Birmingham to Preston and Scotland transfer from Virgin Rail Group to Arriva (the present day operator of the Cross-country franchise)?
If so, that would explain that anomaly as there are no Intercity Cross-country routes via Preston these days.

I bought a Hooton-Birmingham New St Off Peak Return ticket today, and it had restriction 2V which is an XC trademark (not before 0930).
BRFares indeed confirms the fare is set by XC, despite them operating only a minority of trains over a small portion of the route (Stafford-Birmingham).
I really don't see why XC is involved at all in setting such fares, and there are plenty of them.
I'd have expected WMT or ATW to set the fare, as they run more trains over more of the route than anybody else.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I bought a Hooton-Birmingham New St Off Peak Return ticket today, and it had restriction 2V which is an XC trademark (not before 0930).
BRFares indeed confirms the fare is set by XC, despite them operating only a minority of trains over a small portion of the route (Stafford-Birmingham).
I really don't see why XC is involved at all in setting such fares, and there are plenty of them.
I'd have expected WMT or ATW to set the fare, as they run more trains over more of the route than anybody else.

Another easily beatable Cross Country Fare. Split at Stafford the Off Peak Return is an 8A No restriction ATW fare (£25.30) and even with buying the Anytime Return from Stafford to BHM (£17.70) its cheaper than the XC set Off Peak fare (£44.50) and one hell of a lot cheaper than the Anytime Return (£71.00)

 

[yorkie]

There are some WCML flows that are set by XC, which were not taken off the franchise when the Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland services were taken off their hands. As these fares are expensive, both TPE and Virgin are more than happy with the status quo, as they can both have their own TOC-specific fares. And if anyone moans that the any permitted is too high, they can conveniently blame XC.

However I wouldn't publicise good value fares that are useable on XC that are not priced by XC too much as XC has in the past taken control of those flows and added draconian restrictions and increased fares considerably. This applies to some fares formerly set by Chiltern in the Birmingham to Leamington corridor.

It was pointed out tome by a very astute York conductor that there was some ludicrous cheap promotion fare dating back to Northern Spirit (anyone remember them?) , for a West Yorkshire stations to Glasgow via Settle and their once a day service. This fare was "stuck in" , despite the service having been long withdrawn. I ha a word with someone at ATOC and it was removed.......

We know not to tell you of any particularly good value fares then