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Atherton Line

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Senex

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Idly dreaming in maximum crayonista mode, money flowing freely .... Create a really fast Manchester to Preston route by restoring these L&Y fast lines right through from Windsor Bridge to the De Trafford Curve, full re-alignment of that curve (which would involve demolition of the relatively new industrial premises at the north end), restoring the Whelley Line to fast standards through to the non-conflicting Standish Jn with the WCML, and then using that good fast line to Preston. All electrified, of course. But dream on ....
 
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The line from walkden to Atherton was welded about 6 years ago but the express trains on the former fast lines were certainly travelling at about 70 to 75 mph. Remember that parts of the West coast main line had not been welded in the 1960s.
 

Springs Branch

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Were the fast lines 70 or 75mph? I've read elsewhere that it was 70, but stated further up as 75. Was welded rail used for the fast lines? It's hard to imagine the Atherton line as anything other than noisy jointed rail!
The Sectional Appendix dated 1960 stated maximum permissible speed on main lines was 75 mph.
On slow lines between Windsor Bridge No.3 (i.e. today's Salford Crescent) and Hindley No.3 maximum speed was 65 mph in 1960.
Obviously there were lower limits at certain spots like Crow Nest Junction and through Walkden station.

I can't imagine British Railways in the 1950s/60s installing any significant amount of welded rail on the fast lines, given the way traffic was declining in that period. As mentioned, the Atherton line has always been a good place to experience a nice bit of jointed-rail bounce - firstly on a Cravens DMU, later on a Pacer.
 

Bevan Price

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Some speed limits were reduced to 70 mph almost by default, because all the passenger services were operated by first generation dmus, all of which were restricted to 70 mph, so there was no need for higher speed limits.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Really? Because the current platform canopy looks as though it's been there for 100 years, and it always looks as though its been an island platform.

Sorry to mislead you the current island platforms had additional single platforms on either side has Atherton had fast and slow line platforms. The current island platform now has trains running in the opposite direction to when it was quadruple track using the old eastbound fast line and the old westbound slow line

A photo in "Railways Past and Present 41 - Manchester and South Lancashire" shows the original slow line tracks still in use as late as at least September 1983. Presumably the realignment to use just the single island occurred as part of the Hag Fold scheme of 1987. The up slow platform was graced with a canopy as substantial as that on the island so being able to remove it will certainly have reduced the long-term maintenance costs for the line.

It's interesting to note that local stopping trains were pretty much a third priority on the Atherton line from the line's opening in 1888 through to early BR days.

The line's original two main purposes - as mentioned by @Bevan Price - were to cater for express trains from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange, Southport and Blackpool and the north (avoiding the bottleneck at Bolton) and to shift millions of tons of coal from the local coalfield (much of this going to Liverpool Docks via the Westwood Park line and the sorting sidings at Aintree).

The ghosts of the former Blackpool expresses were still evident until relatively recently: through the late 1980s there were still 2 weekday services during the summer months from Manchester Victoria via Oldham and Rochdale (or the other way round) which used the Atherton line. One went only as far as Brindle Heath Jn before diverging to Agecroft Jn but then ran non-stop through Bolton with next stop at Wigan North Western. The other called at the more important stations via Atherton but was then non-stop from Hindley to (I think) Leyland. I believe the latter lasted until 2008 but didn't re-appear in 2009 thanks to the Pendolino VHF timetable making pathing impossible. Perhaps someone will confirm these recollections more definitely as my own records are incomplete.

Unlike today, stopping trains were few and far between, and towns along the line weren't considered to be commuter suburbs for Manchester in the same way that those along the Bury, Altrincham or Styal lines became. In British Rail days trains did not stop at any of the Atherton line stations during the mid-day off-peak period (although the station ticket offices were still staffed!)

The line's fortunes only changed when the GMPTE became serious about developing local rail services, and of course today its regular services are all local trains (even though some do run through to/from Leeds).

When I first developed an interest in railways back in the mid-1970s one of the first publications I had was an all-lines timetable. I remember that the Atherton line service was just a basic hourly frequency with most trains running Southport to Leeds via Bradford (there's nothing new about today's arrangements!). I would guess that the large off-peak gaps in service were filled after the 1968 Transport Act gave the newly formed PTEs some responsibilities for rail service provision. Note also that the Kirkby line service ran via Westhoughton and outside of peak-hours terminated at Bolton.

Some speed limits were reduced to 70 mph almost by default, because all the passenger services were operated by first generation dmus, all of which were restricted to 70 mph, so there was no need for higher speed limits.

An old hand told me that at some point the Atherton line speed limit had to be reduced to 50mph due to the condition of the track. When cwr was installed a few years ago it was widely expected that the line speed would be increased to at least 60mph but this obviously was not deemed to be cost effective and it remains at 50mph today. This is in contrast to the section forward from Wigan to Southport which has remained at 70mph, doubtless due to the lower level of traffic not having inflicted the same degree of wear so no reduction was deemed necessary. Although by the time this section received cwr the track must have come perilously close to requiring a lower speed limit: it was very rough!
 
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2009 sounds about right for the disappearance of the Blackpool train as I said before it was loco hauled by a 37 for at least one year in the 1990s. The 50 mph limit may be due to the line between walkden and atherton being prone to flooding. It has been closed several times in the last few months
 

Philip

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In terms of the track, were both the Atherton and Southport lines as noisy back in the 60s and 70s as they were until fairly recently? I'm not talking about the bouncing over joints, rather the rail roar caused by the corrugations. I can remember in the 90s and 2000s there were sections between Walkden-Atherton and between Gathurst-Appley Bridge which were particularly loud!

I can remember seeing a lot of bullhead rail on the Atherton line until 10 or so years ago, but don't know if this would have caused more or less track roar.
 
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daodao

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While the local stopping service has been significantly improved, that from M/c Victoria to Southport is significantly slower than in 1910 or 1960, when end-to-end journey times as low as 50 minutes were achieved on many services.
 

Philip

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While the local stopping service has been significantly improved, that from M/c Victoria to Southport is significantly slower than in 1910 or 1960, when end-to-end journey times as low as 50 minutes were achieved on many services.

Running non-stop Manchester to Wigan must be the main reason for this? I doubt westbound services even using the fast lines were able to reach 70 until beyond Moorside because of the gradient on the climb to Swinton?
 
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Running non-stop Manchester to Wigan must be the main reason for this? I doubt westbound services even using the fast lines were able to reach 70 until beyond Moorside because of the gradient on the climb to Swinton?
The Manchester to Southport expresses usually called at Wigan meols cop and Southport and were quite heavy usually about 8 to 10 coaches usually hauled by a black 5 with occasional standard class 4 or jubilee . The express which came through walkden about 5 15 pm ran none stop to meols cop and was hauled by a peak class 45 a couple of times whilst the 6 30 train through walkden was regularly hauled by a royal Scot from holyhead or Llandudno junction.
 

Senex

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At the start of the 1960s the best Manchester-Southport trains were running non-stop between Wigan and St Luke's, before going on to Chapel Street. The best train of the day was the 5pm from Manchester, which didn't even make the Wigan stop and reached St Luke's in 45 minutes.
 
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At the start of the 1960s the best Manchester-Southport trains were running non-stop between Wigan and St Luke's, before going on to Chapel Street. The best train of the day was the 5pm from Manchester, which didn't even make the Wigan stop and reached St Luke's in 45 minutes.
sorry I forgot about st Luke's and incorrectly said meols cop. Does anyone know how the North Wales royal Scots got back onto their normal route as the Southport working would appear to be a filling in turn.
 

Bevan Price

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sorry I forgot about st Luke's and incorrectly said meols cop. Does anyone know how the North Wales royal Scots got back onto their normal route as the Southport working would appear to be a filling in turn.

Possibly the late night Manchester Victoria - Holyhead service ?
 
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In pedant mode - until it closed, the Holyhead service would have used Manchester Exchange rather than Victoria.
The stations were connected by the very long platform 11 from Victoria you can still see some of the platform edges. Don't know why they can't use this to create another platform at victoria.
 
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What’s the current plans for the Atherton line?
Not sure we get 3 trains an hour each way during the day. on the positive side there are through services to Leeds and Blackburn via copy pit.on the negative side the through services to Southport popular for day trippers have been axed.at least we now have the luxury of the 3 car 158s on the Leeds trains.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Have the plans to turn the line into Light Rail still going ahead?

I don't think there have ever been any definite plans for this at all, merely some occasional delusional aspirations expressed by GMPTE/TfGM to convert almost all local lines to Metrolink. It's quite possible that most discussion about light rail on the line has taken place on this forum! Ultimately it all depends on the need to maintain through services to the Southport and Kirkby lines; the route via Bolton is starting to fill up and running via Chat Moss is more than just a little bit inconvenient operationally making the Atherton line indispensable as a heavy rail route. As such any Metrolink connection would probably have to involve tram-train operation, a concept not yet fully proven for GB conditions generally never mind Metrolink's version of tramway.
 

edwin_m

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I don't think there have ever been any definite plans for this at all, merely some occasional delusional aspirations expressed by GMPTE/TfGM to convert almost all local lines to Metrolink. It's quite possible that most discussion about light rail on the line has taken place on this forum! Ultimately it all depends on the need to maintain through services to the Southport and Kirkby lines; the route via Bolton is starting to fill up and running via Chat Moss is more than just a little bit inconvenient operationally making the Atherton line indispensable as a heavy rail route. As such any Metrolink connection would probably have to involve tram-train operation, a concept not yet fully proven for GB conditions generally never mind Metrolink's version of tramway.
There has been at least one feasibility study. There's certainly a potentially viable concept of running Kirkby/Southport trains via Bolton and converting the Atherton route to Metrolink, probably with tram-train operation west of Crow Nest to keep the link to Wigan. The distance is similar to Bury, and a tram-train vehicle would probably have a higher ratio of seating to standing and better comfort than the existing trams, as they do in places such as Karlsruhe where they run tram-train routes of over 100km, so I don't think it's too far out for that sort of operation.

Whether it's the best option is a different question - one obvious downside is the need for a costly new link through Salford and parts of central Manchester to connect the route to the rest of Metrolink.
 

Grannyjoans

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The Dusty Bin's use the Atherton Line as well, so less options for freights between Wigan & Manchester if it got converted to a Tram line
 

Welshman

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In terms of the track, were both the Atherton and Southport lines as noisy back in the 60s and 70s as they were until fairly recently? I'm not talking about the bouncing over joints, rather the rail roar caused by the corrugations. I can remember in the 90s and 2000s there were sections between Walkden-Atherton and between Gathurst-Appley Bridge which were particularly loud!

I can remember seeing a lot of bullhead rail on the Atherton line until 10 or so years ago, but don't know if this would have caused more or less track roar.

I remember using the Liverpool Exchange/Manchester Victoria/Leeds Central dmus after they were introduced in 1962. They were non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Victoria in about 25 minutes via the fast lines, and the sweep down from Irlams-O'-Th'-Height over Brindle Heath flyover to Pendleton Broad St was quite exhilerating, and there was always a very loud rail roar approaching Pendleton B.S.
 
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