Attitude Doesn't Help

[O L Leigh]

Chaps,

I don't want this to become a "boot on the other foot" type of thread, but I just wanted to report on an conversation I had with a photographer/enthusiast at Liv St today.

I'd clocked this gentleman standing on P4/5 way up past the 8 car mark as I'd arrived and he was still there as I prepared to depart. He had a small camera bag on the floor and was standing just a short distance away from it. So, just to make sure that all was OK, I went over and had a chat.

I politely said hello and made sure I called him "sir". At first he ignored me and stood with his back to me, so I walked around to face him and said hello again. I asked if he was taking photographs around the station and he said "Am I...?". So I stared at his camera bag which prompted him to admit "Well I have a camera but I haven't used it yet.". In order to give him the benefit of the doubt, I said that I presumed he'd already checked-in with the station supervisor before taking up his position, to which he replied "Have I...?". I explained to him the need to do so for safety reasons and that it was a Network Rail policy for major stations. He just grinned inanely back at me as he had done the entire time I'd been talking to him. I told him that the station reception was on P10 and he just grinned. So I repeated that he needed to check-in with the supervisor. He then pointed at my train and asked if I was driving it, so I told him I was. Then he asked where P10 was, so I directed him. At this point I believed I'd told him enough and got into my train to prepare it for departure. He didn't immediately head back down the platform, but he did eventually walk down until he was at least past my cab.

What grated with me a little bit was the guy's attitude. I was reasonable and polite with him throughout, explained the reasons why he needed to check-in and was careful not to simply tell him point-blank that he was not allowed to be there. But he was evasive and smarmy throughout and seemed to me to be intent on being awkward.

Now I know that you guys sometimes get the rough end of the stick when it comes to dealing with staff, but not all staff are there to give you a difficult time. All we ask is that you adhere to the rules while on railway property. It is primarily for your own safety that you should check-in so that station staff know where to find you in the event of an alarm, but also so that your business is known and that you are not harrassed or considered to be a threat.

O L Leigh

 

[kestrel]

Met a few chaps like this when i've been on either end of the lens, his attitude was bad to say the least, i think i would have had a few chioce words to say to him!

I've never had any problems with staff (of course showing my trump card helps lol) but i've often found that if you give good attitude you often get it back and vice versa, i would have prob' reported this chap to NR base or BTP to give him a few words in the ear so to speak8)

 

[rail-britain]

If I didn't know better, sounds like "Tim nice but dim"
I was at Glasgow Queen Street a few weeks ago and a person was asking for "permission to access the platforms to take train numbers" (who in their 40s asks that question!?!)
The staff agreed, asked him to read the station safety notice, sign the visitors book, and they would issue a pass which should then be returned to the gate staff on leaving the platforms
It took a further five minutes this person to grasp the point that the pass had to be handed back to the gate staff and there was no need to sign out
Presumably, expecting a platform ticket and something to keep as a souvenir!

 

[me123]

Why don't they realise that signing in means they're not treated as a suspected terrorist? :roll:

 

[nath9425]

Why don't they realise that signing in means they're not treated as a suspected terrorist? :roll:

But surely in the perfect world...then we shouldn't have to sign in/out.

 

[LilLoaf]

hi there to O L Leigh. I agree with what you said about the guys attitude not being very good. I assume you are staff and it was nice of you to ask him to check in at the station office, rather than just tell him to leave. Most staff to just ask or rather tell photograghers to leave the station.
I don't understand this idea of checking in and reading safety notices. Most people can see where they are not allowed to go on the station restricted areas have signs up on them. It only takes a little bit of common sence. However i expect this idea of reading the safety notices is an idea by the Health and Safety people rather than station staff.

 

[Half Pint 56120]

I don't sign in, do i look like i'm goin to blow the station up...no, do i want to blow the station up...no, some people have to chill out thinking that a terrorist is just gonna appear and blow us up. If a camera doesn't tell you already that your spotting what doesn't.

 

[LilLoaf]

Thats the trouble people are too quick to panic and jump to conclusions. It comes to something bad when people carn't enjoy their hobby without being bothered so called "security staff" and British tranport police. Thats a point the British Transport police were at the Heaton open. Thats icornic isn't it the people that dont want you talking photo's are at an event where everyone is taking photo's. I don't know whey they are called "British" transport police no other country has a special police force just to patrol the train network i mean have you ever heard of the "French" transport police, or the "Spanish" transport police.

At Birmingham New Street i always get bothered by the British transport police or security staff. Therefore when at this station i use the camera on my phone to take photo's and make it look like i am texting. Where there's a will there's a way. So lets all do that stand on end of a platform with mobile phones pretending to text. Off course then anyone with a phone in their hand will be asked to leave the station. Its not just stations eithers its in the middle of the country aswell.

Something really needs to be sorted out with this as its really getting out of hand now. All we want to do is carry on a hobby thats been around for well i don't know how since camera were invented i suppose. We just want to take photograghs of trains. Its our interest, out hobby. In just the same way as people want to take photo's of buses, aircraft, boats. There is even a document somewhere on the internet saying there is no law against people taking photo's of trains. So we are getting told by poeple of the law to not do something that isnt even against the law. Sounds madness when out like that doesnt it and thats becasuse it is madness.

 

[O L Leigh]

Oh dear. Was hoping to avoid all this.

I hear what you're saying and understand why you feel so frustrated, but only up to a point. When you're on railway property you are on private property. If you're not there to catch trains you really have no business being there at all. The question of whether or not a particular activity is legal is not the issue here. If the person in charge of a location has grounds to request your removal from a location, you will be removed.

Photographers and enthusiasts are tolerated, but if you insist on going against the grain by refusing to sign-in with the station supervisor you must expect the harrassment to continue. The chances of them refusing to allow you to pursue your hobby is actually very slim, so you have more to gain from playing by the rules than by flouting them.

O L Leigh

 

[Craig]

Photographers and enthusiasts are tolerated, but if you insist on going against the grain by refusing to sign-in with the station supervisor you must expect the harrassment to continue. The chances of them refusing to allow you to pursue your hobby is actually very slim, so you have more to gain from playing by the rules than by flouting them.

Surely there needs to be some kind of happy medium. Obviously if you're planning to hang around at the end of platform for several hours then it would make sense to check in with the station staff. But if you were only stopping for a short while or taking a few photos before catching a train is it really necessary to sign in?

I think the only times I've ever signed in is when I've been taking photos in a semi formal capacity (research for a preserved railway) and I've never really had any hassle from staff. Having said that, in the situation you described above I'd have probably signed in to keep the peace.

 

[LilLoaf]

I don't see how a station can be private property when any members of the public can use it. Fare enough for example First Great Western may run Exeter St Davids station but its a public company with members of the public useing it. The only way a station can be private is if its a little station in someones back garden then its on private property and therefore nobody can enter without the owners permission. Stations are public places where anyone can go without prior permission from anyone. After all when a new station is built its not the company that pays for it its us out of taxes so we are getting thrown out of places that we have paid for maybe not directly but through our taxes, out train fares, out cups of tea we buy on trains. All our money spent on a place where we are not welcome.

This idea of signing in has never been done since the very beginning of train photograghy my Grandad never needed to sign in. How long will it be that tourests need to sign into whoever owns Westminster buildings just so they can take a photo of them.

TOC should be greatfull for an extra pair of eyes at stations to keep an eye on things and report any crime at stations.

 

[O L Leigh]

We've had this discussion before.

The railway infrastructure is owned and operated by Nitwit Rail. It is private property. Obviously it has to be publically accessible so that people who are doing business with the railway can do so. After all, a business wouldn't survive for very long if it's customers can't get in. But the railway is no different from any bank, shop, restaurant or any other place of business. Just because you get your shopping at Tesco or bank with HSBC you cannot make any claim of ownership over those businesses, even though your money has undoubtedly gone towards the construction and upkeep of the building. What you are doing is paying a private company to offer goods or services from a particular premises.

Oh, and believe me the TOC's are private companies. FGW has a board of directors and shareholders the same as any other private company.

O L Leigh

 

[LilLoaf]

I really don't see how the railway can be a private company when its ran by a load of Managers and Executives and not simply one person. Now the Betty's burger van up the street from me is private business as its owned by one person betty.

Railway stations are public places where members of the public go just like Covent Garden and other such places. Anyway i am not getting involved in the politcal madness of who own or which company runs which part of the railway

The facts remain the same. Train spotters do not pose any risk to any train, any train staff, any members of the public, or the smooth running of any station. With reguards to signing in train spotters will take the same photo's, in the same way, at same place at the station reguardless wheather they sign in or not.

It really does not take much working out that someone at the end of a platform with a camera is taking pictures of trains. Nobody who takes photo's of buses, boats, or aircrafts, so what it is the major issue with trains.

Maybe its bcause TOC's do not want pictures of late running trains, dirty train, placed all over the internet and in train mags. Maybe thats the whole point of this its certainly not a securty issue. What possisble harm can someone with a camera do anyway?

If people did not take photo's of trains that we would be able to buy train mags.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, those are the facts. It's not simply a matter of interpretation.

O L Leigh

 

[dan_atki]

Train spotters do not pose any risk to any train, any train staff, any members of the public, or the smooth running of any station. With reguards to signing in train spotters will take the same photo's, in the same way, at same place at the station reguardless wheather they sign in or not.

And how would a member of staff know what the individual is up to? The 'oh they have a camera so must be taking pics of trains' argument does not hold in my eyes in today's society.

Besides, enthusiasts in the past have actually been a danger to themselves, staff, and property before through fooling around.

It really does not take much working out that someone at the end of a platform with a camera is taking pictures of trains. Nobody who takes photo's of buses, boats, or aircrafts, so what it is the major issue with trains.

Two issues.

1) Signing in will also allow the staff to establish you are a private individual taking pictures rather than a company (who'd probably have to pay to take pictures on the property). If you don't, they won't know.

2) Security. Without wishing to insult intelligence here and spelling every last thing out, security at airports has been tightened in the last 7 years. It is impractical to have the same level of security at railway stations due to the sheer number of users and the way a railway works.

Do you want to have to book weeks in advance, get to Waterloo 2 hours before your train, check your baggage in, go through security, get on your train, travel to your destination (which has to be the place you booked to weeks ago - no changes allowed), get off your train, go through another security check, collect your luggage, then leave the station? Ok, call me absurd but that's why we can't - it is too impractical for rail travel.

The other issue with security is what the pictures are being used for. Now, I appreciate enthusiasts are at the mercy of whatever Network Rail and the British Transport Police decide as to such matters and that they could unfairly be punished for their hobby. Problem is, many people cannot distinguish photographers. For all they know you could be taking pictures of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras, with an aim of going home and devising a plan to disable them or something a lot more sinister.

I understand nobody likes being harrassed about things by staff/police but I think 'leaving and letting be' is not an option. They are simply establishing security and making sure you are not up to no good - something in everyone's interest as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe its bcause TOC's do not want pictures of late running trains, dirty train, placed all over the internet and in train mags. Maybe thats the whole point of this its certainly not a securty issue. What possisble harm can someone with a camera do anyway?

I'm not saying by any means that it's the pictures/films being taken but more of what is done with the pictures/films afterwards. 99.9% of people will have an innocent explanation but can staff risk you being that 0.1%?
(Before anyone gets picky with these percentages they're invented to demonstrate a point).

If people did not take photo's of trains that we would be able to buy train mags.

That's done through commercial photography, and permissions and permits always have to be sought in advance from what I can make out - making it completely different to private photography and its issues.

 

[LilLoaf]

I sort of agree with point 1 made dan atki with reguards to staff knowing if you are a pirvate person talking photograghs or taking photo's for a particuler comapany. Thats fine i see the point of that.

However i think the rest is a little bit fare fetched the idea of people taking pictures of security related equipment. If someone wants to take pictures of that sort of equipment they would probably i'm guessing do it on the sly, not in full view of everyone.

With reguards to checking in for trains and going through security to get on trains. Sadly i can see that happening some day its just the world we live in i suppose its bound to happen evantually.

I also think that train spotters do not like being bothered while doing their innocent and trouble free hobby. If its a security issue surely there is a way instead bothering train spotters. While i am all for keeping our stations safe and secure lets not get things out of hand. Its not so long ago that security services were stopping and searching train spotters. Now surely thats going to far.

 

[mbonwick]

Thats the trouble people are too quick to panic and jump to conclusions.

You can say that again. March this year, I was with a friend at Lancaster, who was waiting for some friends off a Blackpool train. WE were both waiting for a pair of DRS tractors.
So, anyway, there we were at the end of the platform. His friends get off the train wander up to us being careful not to get in the way of our shots or those of the other 10-odd photographers. One of us then puts a hoodie up as it started to rain.

Station manager was out like a shot, wanted to know what we were waiting for. Fair 'nuff.

As he was walking away though, he said [to just me, mate and his friends had wandered off leaving me to fend off the questions] "I don't want you causing a nuisance to these photographers here OK?"
I politely pointed out that I was also a photographer and that I had been waiting on the station for longer than any of the other photographers who had just turned up.
He obviously didn't lie this and walk straight off.

 

[LilLoaf]

Yeah thats exactly the sort of thing that i'm taking about. I was standing on a station and the British transport police turned up and told (not asked) me to leave the station. Didn't even get a chance to show him the pictures on my camera to show i was just photograghing trains. He thought i was tresspassing as the singlemen had seen some people on the line 5 minues before. (The single box was another 6 mile up the line ) How could i possibly get 6 mile in 5 minutes i only had a peddle bike.

 

[jv3531]

As long as people follow the rules then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Print out a copy of the nextwrok rail guildlines available from their website. If you are asked then show them a copy of it. At the end of the day, if it says passengers must not pass this point or cross the line then don't. The rules are there for everyone, not just terrorists or other individuals who think they don't apply to them.

I have seen this time and time again especially when special services like steamers etc are around. Come on guys, think about others for once.... if this carries on this way with this attitude then we'll all be banned. People with this sort of attitude give us good guys a very poor reputation... don't let others spoil it for you!

 

[EE Type 3]

If your on a station and your not catching a train you are loitering, which is a breach of the byelaws section 21(1). So feel lucky if the staff are not asking you to leave.

 

[LilLoaf]

If your on a station and your not catching a train you are loitering, which is a breach of the byelaws section 21(1). So feel lucky if the staff are not asking you to leave.

Loitering - , train stations are public places where anyone can go to do whatever they want (within reason off course). You could be at a station to pick someone up of a train. Would that be classed as loitering because your not catching a train? I dont know where this idea of loitering comes from. Its just people taking photo's of trains. A hobby. A interest. Something that has been going on for years.

Dispite what some people think there is no law against taking pictures at stations. Its not halming anyone. Its not causeing a distubence. As long as we all act senciable and follow the rules (the obvious ones not the made up ones that some security staff follow) then there should be no problems. The fact that people do have problems when doing nothing wrong is total madness.

 

[Craig]

Loitering - , train stations are public places where anyone can go to do whatever they want (within reason off course).

This has already been discussed. Railways (stations, trains, etc.) are not public places, but access is granted at the discretion of the various railway companies (obviously if they didn't let anyone in they'd find it difficult to make any money). Some stations also allow access to the general public but they are quite within their rights to revoke this access, especially when some people take the p*ss.

 

[EE Type 3]

This has already been discussed. Railways (stations, trains, etc.) are not public places, but access is granted at the discretion of the various railway companies (obviously if they didn't let anyone in they'd find it difficult to make any money). Some stations also allow access to the general public but they are quite within their rights to revoke this access, especially when some people take the p*ss.

To add to that, if you are meeting someone off the train, you should wait outside the station, or on the concourse. Most staff allow you to go onto the platforms, with platform tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Loitering - , train stations are public places where anyone can go to do whatever they want (within reason off course)

No they are not.

They are there so people can catch the train, not whatever they want.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm beginning to regret starting this thread now.

LilLoaf: You are wrong, plain and simple. There is no matter for interpretation because the situation is very straightfoward. The railway is happy to work with enthusiasts and photographers, but if people like you continue to act in this way then it is you who is spoiling it for everyone else, not the railway.

If you want to take pictures of trains without being hassled or having to follow rules, please do so from OUTSIDE the boundary fence.

Now, would a Mod please lock this...?

O L Leigh

 

[Techniquest]

O L Leigh, sorry you had to put up with such an ignorant fool. Equally so with some of the ignorance noted in this thread.

I wanted to come on here and say we're not all like it, but I'm starting to wonder. Many photographers are friendly and will sign in if they are asked. I know I usually don't remember, but at the same time I usually only grab a couple of record, three-quarter-profile photos before transferring to another train anyway.

Here's hoping that next time you encounter a photographer he/she will be much more polite.

 

[LilLoaf]

Just to clear up because people seem to be getting me wrong (maybe the way i word things). I always follow the rules of the station and never stray into restricted area's. I do not get in the way of any staff. I just stand and take photo's quietly, calmly like everyone else.

With reguards to signing in it just annoys me thats it come to the fact that you have to sign in just for the sake of maybe 5 minutes. If i get of a train and see a special train in the next platform that might not be there long then i'll take a photo straight away. I'm not going to run over the reception just to sign in and find the trains has gone.

If i am asked to sign in then i will but it still strikes me as being pointless.

 

[bluenoxid]

What grated with me a little bit was the guy's attitude

There are some very strange dimwits on the railway. I have previously mentioned the mental health act in previous situations. You have done everything you could have done mate.

I don't understand this idea of checking in and reading safety notices. Most people can see where they are not allowed to go on the station restricted areas have signs up on them. It only takes a little bit of common sence. However i expect this idea of reading the safety notices is an idea by the Health and Safety people rather than station staff.

Not Health and Safety per se. Most likely it was due to the risk assessors deeming that people on the station are a hazard, with a reasonably high risk and requires a mitigation. Unfortunately the mitigation has involved lumping it with staff/contractors who are working on the station rather than a separate system to save costs and difficulty

I don't sign in, do i look like i'm goin to blow the station up...no, do i want to blow the station up...no, some people have to chill out thinking that a terrorist is just gonna appear and blow us up. If a camera doesn't tell you already that your spotting what doesn't.

When your neck is on the line, I am sure you won't be saying the same thing

Thats the trouble people are too quick to panic and jump to conclusions. It comes to something bad when people carn't enjoy their hobby without being bothered so called "security staff" and British tranport police. Thats a point the British Transport police were at the Heaton open. Thats icornic isn't it the people that dont want you talking photo's are at an event where everyone is taking photo's. I don't know whey they are called "British" transport police no other country has a special police force just to patrol the train network i mean have you ever heard of the "French" transport police, or the "Spanish" transport police.

Ironic??? In fact those lads did a very good job of explaining section 44 of the terror act to me and explaining how T+V can affect local people. It was a very good and popular public relations exercise. I would like to repeat that the event was a COMMUNITY OPEN DAY and not a day for rail enthusiasts.

The BTP allow us to have police who know how the railway works to attend the scene. The BTP are faster than the ordinary civils in dealing with railway matters. I don't know how many other countries have transport police, but being different does not necessarily mean wrong.

Something really needs to be sorted out with this as its really getting out of hand now. All we want to do is carry on a hobby thats been around for well i don't know how since camera were invented i suppose. We just want to take photograghs of trains. Its our interest, out hobby. In just the same way as people want to take photo's of buses, aircraft, boats. There is even a document somewhere on the internet saying there is no law against people taking photo's of trains. So we are getting told by poeple of the law to not do something that isnt even against the law. Sounds madness when out like that doesnt it and thats becasuse it is madness.

No. So far this thread has been about ensuring that you follow a procedure put in place, not banning you off a station. There have been incidents involving rail enthusiasts. These are not unusual. There were tens of thousands of complaints against police officers last year. Whilst the police do their best, they are not perfect and it is very easy to make a mistake. After all they are only human.

Paul Bigland is currently trying (along with other members of the rail enthusiast community) to negotiate a slightly better worded settlement and procedure.

I really don't see how the railway can be a private company when its ran by a load of Managers and Executives and not simply one person. Now the Betty's burger van up the street from me is private business as its owned by one person betty.

What is private business nowadays? Is Betty's Burger van part of a larger business. Is your house mortgaged? Do you mind if I take photos in your garden because your bank still owns part of it.

I also think that train spotters do not like being bothered while doing their innocent and trouble free hobby. If its a security issue surely there is a way instead bothering train spotters. While i am all for keeping our stations safe and secure lets not get things out of hand. Its not so long ago that security services were stopping and searching train spotters. Now surely thats going to far.

Nobody likes being stopped and searched. The police don't like doing it. However, they need to be proactive. Are these searches effective, well I just don't know?

Here's hoping that next time you encounter a photographer he/she will be much more polite.

And not Lilloaf

 

[me123]

But surely in the perfect world...then we shouldn't have to sign in/out.

Oh of course, I fully agree with you, and I agree that it is simply paranoia. However, Al Qaeda tend not to care what happens to rail enthusiasts. It's the world we live in and, as sad as it is, cooperating with this request doesn't exactly take a lot of your time and ensures that you can continue spotting/photting and the staff are happy that you're there, and everyone's happy

Of course, I'm neither a spotter or a photter, so I never go onto platforms for the sheer fun of it and therefore don't have any experience of this whatsoever.

 

[Ben]

I really don't see how the railway can be a private company when its ran by a load of Managers and Executives and not simply one person. Now the Betty's burger van up the street from me is private business as its owned by one person betty.

Private companies are run for profit.

It means they can restrict who does what on their premises* and who goes where.

*Yes I realise Railway stations are owned by NR but they are run & operated by TOCs.

People with your attitude really annoy me.

 

[LilLoaf]

This country has gone totally mad. I never had any trouble when i was in America recently taking photo's of trains, New York Subway. And hang on they had a terror attack a few years ago didn't they (Godbless all the people who risked their lives in that attack to save people). I never got stopped once for taking photo's.

In fact one guy who worked for the New York subway asked me about my hobby and offered to give me a cab ride in his train. Would that happen hear ?

Its just a pitty that this country seems to be taking things way to far. Yes train stations need to be made safe but this can be done with CCTV.

As fare as the me not being polite thing i speak to a lot of the staff at my local station and get on with them well. However when i got to London and get looked at like a piece of dirt on the ground by so called security services and TOLD not asked to leave the station i am not going to take it. Would you ?

I will sign in when asked to but only when asked to.