ATW 'Gerald'

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merlodlliw

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The £3,5M lease stock for Gerald ends May 2015, one has to remember Gerald is open access, the Loco Hauled in North Wales are to be franchise stock and my understanding is Open Access & franchise monies are not allowed be be mixed. So I presume some deal as been done,but who is footing the bill for the North Wales leasing from Dec 2014.



The old 1630 Manchester/ Llandudno club train brings back memories,[/QUOTE]
 
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PHILIPE

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I notice that in view of the LHCS, people are already asking what's going to work this and what's going to work what. Until the full Timetable alterations are known, there is little point in trying to surmise.
 

Tracky

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I'd like to see the loco and stock remain at Holyhead and keep it's path to Chester. It could then work the 0712, but missing Runcorn East and Earlestown. Add in a full first class coach and there would be trade off the coast in my opinion. Hopefully some of the excess passengers could then be convinced to come off the 0640 and 0740 Chester departures and concentrate them on the stock.
 

merlodlliw

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I'd like to see the loco and stock remain at Holyhead and keep it's path to Chester. It could then work the 0712, but missing Runcorn East and Earlestown. Add in a full first class coach and there would be trade off the coast in my opinion. Hopefully some of the excess passengers could then be convinced to come off the 0640 and 0740 Chester departures and concentrate them on the stock.
I too wonder why the busy 0712, 4 coach 158 was not to be loco hauled,probably its all to do with the return working from Picc,I imagine Welsh Government who will be paying for the loco hauled stock have seen so few use Geralds first class, although North Wales to Manchester provides a far busy route than North Wales to Cardiff, how many would use first class on the route is unknown.
 

merlodlliw

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Informed today by rail staff that Gerald MK 1 is cancelled from May 15
Interesting if correct,thats when the £3.5M open access hire funding runs out plus it will save WG £1.4Million annual running costs, I am not surprised,the 1716 start time since Dec from Cardiff has not brought on extra First passengers.

I wonder now about Wagair being kept on, as WG own Cardiff airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or is it just replaced by a 175 (freed up by Gerald stock becoming the Manchester LHCS)?
It's hard work keeping up...
It would be a shame to hand back the refurbed Mark3s (6) and dinners (2), but I would not expect to see first on the Manchester runs,buffet yes.
 

Rhydgaled

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Informed today by rail staff that Gerald MK 1 is cancelled from May 15
If true, they had better also scrap “Ieuan Air” or I shall be rather cross with WAG.

Hope the 8x Gerald mark3s will be redeployed onto existing ATW services to free DMUs though, would be a shame if they had been refurbished just for 3yrs use on Gerald.

It would be a shame to hand back the refurbed Mark3s (6) and dinners (2), but I would not expect to see first on the Manchester runs,buffet yes.
Indeed, just what I was thinking. Two buffet cars isn't much though, so maybe the best we can hope for is keeping the 6 TSOs with ATW plus the rumoured 6 additional mrk3s from December. 12x TSO would make 3 rakes of 4 coaches, which goes nicely with the 3x 67s and DVTs in ATW livery. Two rakes in service, one spare?

The best route for 1st class on ATW would probably be Swansea-Manchester but because the service runs through to/from Carmarthen/Milford it is probably not the best use of the LHCS resources either. Let's just hope too see two standard class LHCS sets on N.Wales - Manchester releasing 158s and/or 175s for use elsewhere on the franchise.
 
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merlodlliw

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North Wales rail website is giving Geralds test runs to Manchester timetable on June 8th, they are below

It seems that test train will run two trips on Sunday 8 June from Chester to Longsight for 'gauging' purposes. The trains will stop at all ATW-served stations to test the method and safety of operation as Mk3 coaches have not been used on Manchester - North Wales stopping services before, although the route Warrington - Earlestown - Wigan is a diversionary route and thus should be cleared for Mk3 stock as used with the sleeper services, and and Manchester - Chat Moss - Edge Hill is a recognised route for various West Coast Service diversions. Perhaps the special Arriva Trains Wales measuring device will be brought out of storage.

Sunday 8 June only (not for public use):
5Z67 11:10 Holyhead - Chester 12:39
1Z67 13:07 Chester - Longsight Down Goods Loop 14:10
1Z68 14:25 Longsight Down Goods Loop - Chester 15:50
1Z69 16:07 Chester - Longsight Down Goods Loop 17:11
1Z70 17:36 Longsight Down Goods Loop - Chester 18:36
5Z70 15:59 Chester - Holyhead 21:11
It has also been suggested to us that the Welsh Government may not be willing to fund the current Holyhead - Cardiff express after this year, but how true this is we cannot say.
link http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

It is also reported in the same edition,Gerald ran as a Rugex on Sat 24th May to Cardiff, ATW staff said four(4) pax were on board at Chester.
 

The Planner

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It is more stepping distances, dwell and sectional running times that the runs are for depsite the sarcastic tone of the article quote.
 

merlodlliw

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Basically, can't see the need for it. How can ATW make sure everything is ok if they don't test?
The hand held board,like a swingometer was used at Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen when ATW brought in the via Wrexham service with Geralds mark 3s.
A test run was on a Sunday morning, I fully agree one must test beforehand.
I often see Gerald go through Gobowen on Thursdays at around 1930, I am amazed how quiet the train is as it passes through at speed.
 
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merlodlliw

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Odd that they did considering WSMR ran MK3s and DVTs that way as far back as 2008.


It must be ATWs policy to test the line with empty stock,North Wales Rail website showed the ATW "Swingometer" in action at Ruabon prior to public use of Gerald via Wrexham.

Indeed W/S used the line with similar stock.
 

PHILIPE

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We would still need a 17 16/21 Cardiff to Holyhead as this a peak time commuter service. I'm sure we would have heard something by now from official sources if it was true. There has been previous reference to this on the thread. Or at least to Shrewsbury to become the 19 24 Shrewsbury to Holyhead which was introduced when Gerald was altered to leave at 17 16.
 
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SprinterMan

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I wonder now about Wagair being kept on, as WG own Cardiff airport.
If true, they had better also scrap “Ieuan Air” or I shall be rather cross with WAG.
I used this service for the first time this week, and it was brilliant. The passenger loadings were better than I expected, with 15 passengers on the Friday morning Cardiff to Anglesey flight (or would have been if the plane wasn't delayed for 4 and a half hours at Cardiff as the starboard engine refused to start, by which time 7 people had given up and gone home). I have it on good authority (Anglesey Airport staff) that these flights will not be ending anytime soon. It would be political suicide to end them as it would result in the closure of Anglesey airport, the passenger terminal of which is only a couple of years old, and would further deprive Cardiff Airport of flights at a time when it is pretty quiet as it is.

Adam :D
 

Rhydgaled

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I used this service for the first time this week, and it was brilliant. The passenger loadings were better than I expected, with 15 passengers on the Friday morning Cardiff to Anglesey flight (or would have been if the plane wasn't delayed for 4 and a half hours at Cardiff as the starboard engine refused to start, by which time 7 people had given up and gone home). I have it on good authority (Anglesey Airport staff) that these flights will not be ending anytime soon. It would be political suicide to end them as it would result in the closure of Anglesey airport, the passenger terminal of which is only a couple of years old, and would further deprive Cardiff Airport of flights at a time when it is pretty quiet as it is.

Adam :D
Whether or not the air service is used, subisidising it still represents an endorsement by our elected representatives of one of the most unsustainable modes of transport possible. I my opinion at least, any government that wishes to be taken seriously about the critial issue of climate change must not endorse flying. This is why Ieaun air angers me so.
 

SprinterMan

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Whether or not the air service is used, subisidising it still represents an endorsement by our elected representatives of one of the most unsustainable modes of transport possible. I my opinion at least, any government that wishes to be taken seriously about the critial issue of climate change must not endorse flying. This is why Ieaun air angers me so.
The fact that the WAG own Cardiff Airport is even worse then :P

Adam :D
 

merlodlliw

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I am not a fan of Wagair either, The passenger terminal on Anglesey was used since 2007 by the previous Airline that went bust, so my guess is the terminal is much older than two years, the airport staff know the current five year contract runs out next year? and will need to be either funded or let go.
The current cost to the Welsh Taxpayer in subsidy funding to run the service is Anglesey terminal gets between £400k & £500k per year,the Airline gets a similar subsidy to Gerald £1.5million a year.
Unlike Gerald the air service is of no use to anyone in North Wales East of Llandudno Junction,I am not party to the funds paid by Welsh Government for landing fees at Cardiff Airport.
In the current economic climate I would be surprised if both Wagair & Geralds Premier Service continue in their current format.
link http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/...it-was-introduced-assembly-committee-hears-2/
 

Gareth Marston

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I am not a fan of Wagair either, The passenger terminal on Anglesey was used since 2007 by the previous Airline that went bust, so my guess is the terminal is much older than two years, the airport staff know the current five year contract runs out next year? and will need to be either funded or let go.
The current cost to the Welsh Taxpayer in subsidy funding to run the service is Anglesey terminal gets between £400k & £500k per year,the Airline gets a similar subsidy to Gerald £1.5million a year.
Unlike Gerald the air service is of no use to anyone in North Wales East of Llandudno Junction,I am not party to the funds paid by Welsh Government for landing fees at Cardiff Airport.
In the current economic climate I would be surprised if both Wagair & Geralds Premier Service continue in their current format.
link http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/...it-was-introduced-assembly-committee-hears-2/
Given budget constraints and the fact that we have an undisclosed sum for the extra Cambrians next May and seemingly a survey to justify not cutting the Fishguards something is likely to give and by elimination it's going to be on the north to south front.
 

merlodlliw

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Given budget constraints and the fact that we have an undisclosed sum for the extra Cambrians next May and seemingly a survey to justify not cutting the Fishguards something is likely to give and by elimination it's going to be on the north to south front.
I have to agree with you, I wonder who employs Valleys Air Terminal staff,the airline? I also ponder what deal has been done with ATWs Cambrian in costings,I suppose we will never know publically, rail access charges to NR, staff, cost of Loco Hauled in North Wales to release 158s, I presume extra 158s will have to be drafted in even if the four car 158 are split into two cars on the Cambrian. Do I foresee a 3 car 175 back on the 1716 from Cardiff, time will tell.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Cambrian... I presume extra 158s will have to be drafted in even if the four car 158 are split into two cars on the Cambrian.
4-car 158s on the Cambrian nearly always split, into Aberystwth and Harlech/Pwllheli portions. The Aberystwyth 'peak-time hourly' timetable Gareth Marston posted a while back shows some of the Harlech/Barmouth/Pwllheli trains terminate at Dovey Junc. and Machynlleth rather than joining to the Aberystwyth unit. I fear overcrowding between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury if that is what actually happens, but they by doing that they might get by with 1 extra unit (perhaps even none). If they continue to provide 4-car between Machynlleth and Birmingham every 2hrs then they will almost certainly need to find at least 2 additional class 158s to enable the hourly service.

Do I foresee a 3 car 175 back on the 1716 from Cardiff, time will tell.
Who's paying for the 16:21 and 18:21 Cardiff-Holyhead/Marches services (former Gerald paths)? Is ATW providing the services at their own expense or is WAG having to fork out to keep a train in those paths since they decided to move Gerald?
 

merlodlliw

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Who's paying for the 16:21 and 18:21 Cardiff-Holyhead/Marches services (former Gerald paths)? Is ATW providing the services at their own expense or is WAG having to fork out to keep a train in those paths since they decided to move Gerald?
[

Good points Rhydgaled,if I recall when Gerald first commenced there were no separate paths available from Cardiff for an open access service late afternoon,an arrangement was done with ORR,that Gerald could use a franchise path, if it stopped all stations to Hereford,so I am presuming ATW will have to fund the services you mention,in terms of filling Geralds Premier First Dining car with customers, both 1621 and 1821 attracted hardly anyone,current the 1716 the busiest service to North Wales fills with standard, but still fails to attract hardly any to first.
 
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