ATW 'Gerald'

[merlodlliw]

I expected there to be a good reason, just making sure that point hadn't been overlooked.

The July 2014 Modern Railways says that ATW is having mk3s converted to TSOs to form two extra loco-hauled sets (presumably one is a spare set and the other is for the new north Wales - Manchester diagram). No mention of whether this includes additional DVTs or locos*. It also says The question then is what will the DMU released by the LHCS be used for. You might be able to use it to maintain the Wrexham-Birmingham, but how does that option fair alongside other possible uses? Having an additional spare for resilliance for example, or retaining the coast portion to ensure capacity on the existing Cambrian service (rather than spreading the same number of seats over an hourly rather than 2-hourly service, as will surely be necessary if they aren't expecting to require extra units).

* With only two LHCS diagrams (Gerald and the new N.Wales-MAN services), I would expect the current 3x DVT to be enough, since they would not require all of them in service at once. Then again, I'm supprised they need a spare rake of coaches up north (since they have one for Gerald anyway), so maybe they will need a 4th DVT as well.

The unit that will become spare on the North Wales Loco Haul route will be a 175 three coach, ATW staff at the Tywyn meeting said all Manchester/South Wales 2 car 175s will eventually become 3 car. The 0712 4 car 158 Chester/Manchester returned splitting at Chester one unit to Llandudno and one unit to Holyhead, however my understanding is the Manchester/Holyhead will become loco hauled,so if a 2 car 175 becomes spare this could make the 0712 ex Chester 2x158 & 2X175, two guards would be required,but that frees up a 2 car 158 unit, just throwing this about, that is if 158s and 175 are compatible.

Has Gerald has a spare of everything,plus importantly paid for by WG as Open Access, Im not sure ATW will be allowed to use open access spare stock on what will be a daily franchise service,according to ORR rules.
The spare set will be four Mark3s in the North,Gerald only has three mark3s spare.Also Gerald only runs extras on non franchise workings,IE Rugex and the occasional Holyhead/Crewe Saturday extras.

 

[berneyarms]

I think somebody said once on this forum that the two extra units would not be needed if all services were 2-car with a change required to get up the Cambrian coast (which, sadly, seems to be the plan*) during the period of hourly trains to Aberystwyth. The Modern Railways peice seems to support this by saying no extra stock is needed for the May 2015 extras. I thought the quoted requirement for two extra units for the Cambrian was if you gave Aberystwyth an hourly service and still kept the 4-car workings every two hours as far as Machynlleth with the split for Pwllheli.

* Very bad idea in my opinion, if you are running more frequent services you are going to attract more passengers, and doing that without increasing total seats per day is just going to lead to sardine tin conditions.

As I see it, there will still be three trains each way splitting/joining at Machynlleth to/from Pwllheli (along with the early train from Barmouth), and then four trains each way connecting at Dovey Junction.

I suspect what that Modern Railways article is saying that with the additional loco hauled set on North Wales that they will then have enough trains to operate all of the services - it doesn't mean that additional trains aren't being allocated from within that existing fleet to the Cambrian lines. They have to be!!

One set to operate the 06:30 from Aberystwyth will come from the cancellation of the 07:00 Shrewsbury-Wrexham and 07:47 Wrexham-Birmingham International.

The second set will operate the 06:30 Shrewsbury/Aberystwyth and 08:30 Aberystwyth/Birmingham International - that will come from the displaced set as a result of the introduction of the loco hauled train in North Wales. This set will probably be redeployed from South Wales as a result of a stock cascade.

 

[bb21]

a very friendly place? i dont think so,from the racist bigoted anti Welsh rants that tdk in particular has been posting it is anything but friendly and the moderators have sat idly by whilst tirades of anti Welsh vitriol have been appearing daily on these pages,little wonder that some of us dont post anymore.

I'm sorry that you think we are not meeting your expectations. There are over 1000 new posts made on the forum every day, and with only 11 unpaid volunteers, it is simply impossible for us to track every thread closely. This is also why we have a reporting system, and we do rely on members using it to bring any matter of such nature to our attention.

If you can provide a list of such posts (either by directly reporting them using the button at the bottom left corner of each one) or via PM to any of the team, then they will be looked at. Unfortunately no one will have the time to trawl through an 8-page thread looking for posts that break forum rules because we all lead busy lives off the forum.

If we are given a chance to sort out the problems then you may be surprised that we do not "sit idly by" as you seem to think.

 

[PHILIPE]

The unit that will become spare on the North Wales Loco Haul route will be a 175 three coach, ATW staff at the Tywyn meeting said all Manchester/South Wales 2 car 175s will eventually become 3 car. The 0712 4 car 158 Chester/Manchester returned splitting at Chester one unit to Llandudno and one unit to Holyhead, however my understanding is the Manchester/Holyhead will become loco hauled,so if a 2 car 175 becomes spare this could make the 0712 ex Chester 2x158 & 2X175, two guards would be required,but that frees up a 2 car 158 unit, just throwing this about, that is if 158s and 175 are compatible.

Has Gerald has a spare of everything,plus importantly paid for by WG as Open Access, Im not sure ATW will be allowed to use open access spare stock on what will be a daily franchise service,according to ORR rules.
The spare set will be four Mark3s in the North,Gerald only has three mark3s spare.Also Gerald only runs extras on non franchise workings,IE Rugex and the occasional Holyhead/Crewe Saturday extras.

175s are not compatible with anything other than 180s bit ATW don't have these. Just as well due to their track record !!!

 

[merlodlliw]

175s are not compatible with anything other than 180s bit ATW don't have these. Just as well due to their track record !!!

Thank you Philippe, your advice will save me embarrassment,if I mention it in professional rail circles.

Many thanks.

 

[PHILIPE]

Thank you Philippe, your advice will save me embarrassment,if I mention it in professional rail circles.

Many thanks.

Pleasure Bob. Glad I did you a god turn
Phil

 

[Rhydgaled]

As I see it, there will still be three trains each way splitting/joining at Machynlleth to/from Pwllheli (along with the early train from Barmouth), and then four trains each way connecting at Dovey Junction.

I suspect what that Modern Railways article is saying that with the additional loco hauled set on North Wales that they will then have enough trains to operate all of the services - it doesn't mean that additional trains aren't being allocated from within that existing fleet to the Cambrian lines. They have to be!!

As I understood it from what I've read elsewhere on this forum previously, the two extra units for Cambrian hourly were not required if coast passengers were forced to change onto 2-car units to/from AYW at Machynlleth or Dovey Junction.

To put it another way, the current service every two hours SHR-AYW in theory requires 2 units, plus another 2 for strengthening (the coast portion) between SHR and Machynlleth. My understanding was that if the coast/stengthening portion is removed, that saves those two units which can be used to provide the hourly AYW-SHR service. No units cascaded from N.Wales required, but a much increased risk of overcrowding between Machynlleth and SHR. The two units from N.Wales would allow the coast/strengthening portion to be kept.

 

[berneyarms]

As I understood it from what I've read elsewhere on this forum previously, the two extra units for Cambrian hourly were not required if coast passengers were forced to change onto 2-car units to/from AYW at Machynlleth or Dovey Junction.

To put it another way, the current service every two hours SHR-AYW in theory requires 2 units, plus another 2 for strengthening (the coast portion) between SHR and Machynlleth. My understanding was that if the coast/stengthening portion is removed, that saves those two units which can be used to provide the hourly AYW-SHR service. No units cascaded from N.Wales required, but a much increased risk of overcrowding between Machynlleth and SHR. The two units from N.Wales would allow the coast/strengthening portion to be kept.

I very much doubt that the existing trains will be shortened - they wouldn't carry between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. They will still need four coaches.

The two additional sets will be needed.

 

[merlodlliw]

As I understood it from what I've read elsewhere on this forum previously, the two extra units for Cambrian hourly were not required if coast passengers were forced to change onto 2-car units to/from AYW at Machynlleth or Dovey Junction.

To put it another way, the current service every two hours SHR-AYW in theory requires 2 units, plus another 2 for strengthening (the coast portion) between SHR and Machynlleth. My understanding was that if the coast/stengthening portion is removed, that saves those two units which can be used to provide the hourly AYW-SHR service. No units cascaded from N.Wales required, but a much increased risk of overcrowding between Machynlleth and SHR. The two units from N.Wales would allow the coast/strengthening portion to be kept.

If WG were to cancel the Fishguard extras, would that free up a 158,out of interest as we are looking at all options,mind you that would create uproar if stock was transferred to the Cambrian three year hourly trials.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I very much doubt that the existing trains will be shortened - they wouldn't carry between Shrewsbury and Birmingham. They will still need four coaches.

The two additional sets will be needed.

I was only refering to the SHR-Machynlleth where the sets look likely to be shortened (we know that coast passengers are likely to have to change at Machynlleth or Dovey Junction, that suggests the train will only be two coaches from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury). The trains would still be 4-car Birmingham-SHR, but that still could create problems between SHR and Machynlleth if some of the current trains are reduced to 2-car over that section. (Almost?) every ATW service between SHR and Birmingham is 4-car anyway, so that doesn't change the number of units required.

If WG were to cancel the Fishguard extras, would that free up a 158,out of interest as we are looking at all options,mind you that would create uproar if stock was transferred to the Cambrian three year hourly trials.

When introduced, the Fishguard extras were reported to have required a single extra 150, sourced from units returning from sub-lease with FirstGW. That 150 might now have been replaced by a 158 though. The daytime Fishguard express boat train (not part of the extra services) is the probably the one that most needs a 158 anyway (a 150 is slightly more understandable on a stopper, but still inappropriate for a journey much over 1hr). Since this is the Gerald thread though, if Gerald continues to have the long layover at Canton it might be possible to use the set to release a 175 for the Fishguard and hence cascade the 158, or send the LHCS to Fishguard.

 

[merlodlliw]

I was only refering to the SHR-Machynlleth where the sets look likely to be shortened (we know that coast passengers are likely to have to change at Machynlleth or Dovey Junction, that suggests the train will only be two coaches from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury). The trains would still be 4-car Birmingham-SHR, but that still could create problems between SHR and Machynlleth if some of the current trains are reduced to 2-car over that section. (Almost?) every ATW service between SHR and Birmingham is 4-car anyway, so that doesn't change the number of units required.

When introduced, the Fishguard extras were reported to have required a single extra 150, sourced from units returning from sub-lease with FirstGW. That 150 might now have been replaced by a 158 though. The daytime Fishguard express boat train (not part of the extra services) is the probably the one that most needs a 158 anyway (a 150 is slightly more understandable on a stopper, but still inappropriate for a journey much over 1hr). Since this is the Gerald thread though, if Gerald continues to have the long layover at Canton it might be possible to use the set to release a 175 for the Fishguard and hence cascade the 158, or send the LHCS to Fishguard.

I have not heard a whisper from anywhere that Geralds stock may do extra work,One must bear in mind Gerald is open access, and my understanding is open access can not do franchise work, other than getting permission to stop at extra stations on the open access route to fulfil franchise obligations when a path is taken off a franchise train & substituted open access,IE
Cwmbran/Pontypool/Abergavenny and the proposed Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take it all back,Gerald as commenced the Summer Saturday extras, but like Monday /Friday, only two runs. Timetable below,

1K51 Holyhead dep. 09:46, Bangor 10:18, Llandudno Junction 10:37, Colwyn Bay 10:44, Abergele 10:53, Rhyl 11:00, Prestatyn 11:06, Chester arr 11:32 dep 11:41, Crewe platform 12 arr 12:04 (advertised as 12:07).

1D74 Crewe platform 12 dep 14:40 Chester arr 15:03 dep 15:10, Prestatyn 15:34, Rhyl 15:41, Abergele 15:48, Colwyn Bay 15:58, Llandudno Junction 16:05, Bangor 16:22, Holyhead arr 16:55.

Gerald had a few problems last week,late running plus cargoD Dining car.full story in this weeks http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm Arriva Loco Hauled Variety.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do I presume Gerald is running via Crewe for the next week or so? due to the blockade at Saltney.

 

[berneyarms]

Do I presume Gerald is running via Crewe for the next week or so? due to the blockade at Saltney.

Looking it up on Realtime trains, it is indeed running via Crewe and arriving half an hour later into Cardiff.

 

[merlodlliw]

Looking it up on Realtime trains, it is indeed running via Crewe and arriving half an hour later into Cardiff.

Thanks for that, almost 1.5 hours to get from Chester to Shrewsbury, I note the old WAG2 to Cardiff is cancelled all week, 0802 from Llandudno

 

[PHILIPE]

All we can talk about at the moment are the December 2014 and May 2015 Timetables. As it has only just been agreed, the Halton Curve will be light years away yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
67012 (Chiltern) currently working Gerald.

67002 ran LE from Crewe to Canton Wed 30/07 and went straight into the 17 16 Cardiff to Holyhead replacing the Chiltern 67.

 

[merlodlliw]

67002 ran LE from Crewe to Canton Wed 30/07 and went straight into the 17 16 Cardiff to Holyhead replacing the Chiltern 67.

Saw Gerald last evening running through Gobowen,57002 unusually in the front with DVT on the rear, Blue & Grey DB owned Mark 3, restaurant/first M 10246 also in use.

 

[railway28]

Can anyone confirm if the Saturday extra to Crewe will run for the rest of August? It's not showing on Realtime trains

 

[tirphil]

If I recall correctly, someone mentioned that an additional unit will be required to form the 0630 off Aberystwyth come the new hourly service. Having seen the drivers diagrams for the new service it would appear that this unit will be the one currently allocated to the 0807 Mach - Aber which will no longer run. There will be an 0746 departure ex Mach (0627 off Salop) This would mean that the 0930 will be a two car ex Aber vice four car as is currently the case.

Where the unit for the 0627 off Salop will come from I don't know but it is currently proposed that a Machynlleth driver will travel in a taxi to Salop to work this service back down The Cambrian.

 

[PHILIPE]

If I recall correctly, someone mentioned that an additional unit will be required to form the 0630 off Aberystwyth come the new hourly service. Having seen the drivers diagrams for the new service it would appear that this unit will be the one currently allocated to the 0807 Mach - Aber which will no longer run. There will be an 0746 departure ex Mach (0627 off Salop) This would mean that the 0930 will be a two car ex Aber vice four car as is currently the case.

Where the unit for the 0627 off Salop will come from I don't know but it is currently proposed that a Machynlleth driver will travel in a taxi to Salop to work this service back down The Cambrian.

Probably the current 07 00 Shrewsbury to Wrexham Unit.

 

[berneyarms]

If I recall correctly, someone mentioned that an additional unit will be required to form the 0630 off Aberystwyth come the new hourly service. Having seen the drivers diagrams for the new service it would appear that this unit will be the one currently allocated to the 0807 Mach - Aber which will no longer run. There will be an 0746 departure ex Mach (0627 off Salop) This would mean that the 0930 will be a two car ex Aber vice four car as is currently the case.

Where the unit for the 0627 off Salop will come from I don't know but it is currently proposed that a Machynlleth driver will travel in a taxi to Salop to work this service back down The Cambrian.

Your analysis would be correct.

The 06:27 from Shrewsbury will (as Philipe says) be the stock currently used by the 07:47 ex-Wrexham.

The 09:30 ex-Aberystwyth would be a 2 car (due to the new 08:30 service) and then would join with the 07:30 (appx) from Pwllheli at Machynlleth to form a 4-car from there to Birmingham International.

 

[merlodlliw]

Reports are a 175 is replacing the Premier Service this morning,anyone confirm this.

 

[Welshman]

It certainly seems that way from the ATW website, which advises the service will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 4, have no first-class and a trolley service of cold food only from Chester.

 

[PHILIPE]

The 17 16 off Cardiff last night failed just north of Church Stretton when a broken cable between the DVT (Leading) and the first carriage caused a brake application. Eventually the train moved driven from the rear cab (67002) at reduced speed to Shrewsbury where the train terminated 122 Late. Resulted in the inevitable queue of trains behind. ECS left Shrewsbury at 21 38 for Canton.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for that

Bob

 

[PHILIPE]

Got as far as Abergavenny tonight and returned ECS to Canton approx. hour later. Fresh train starting Chester in timings but ATW Journey Check fails to indicate number of coaches or catering facilities. Actual problem with train unknown as yet but will post if I get any details.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not a good ATW day the 1809 failed coming out of Ruabon tonight for Wrexham
blocking the line. another unit sent to pull it out.

 

[David Goddard]

Can anyone confirm if the Saturday extra to Crewe will run for the rest of August? It's not showing on Realtime trains

The driver of the train last Saturday indicated that this would be the case when I spoke to him

 

[merlodlliw]

I am told Gerald had more problems today on the Up run(12th August), 30 minutes late,anyone know why.

 

[berneyarms]

Brake problems at Holyhead.

6 in first class tonight.

 

[merlodlliw]

Brake problems at Holyhead.

6 in first class tonight.

Thanks for the info, three problems that I know of within a week, two of them major failures

 

[merlodlliw]

Gerald had another failure at Holyhead today,anyone know what the problem was,I am told by staff, a train train? left Holyhead 26 minutes late either Gerald or a replacement., the 0747 ex Wrexham was not held for passengers off Gerald for local station to Salop

I make that six failures this month so far.