ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

[507021]

I haven't been keeping up with the 769 story, but aren't Northern getting some too?

They are, yes.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Reported that tthe Cambrian will be back to running it's normal timetable on Saturday, but no promises for next week.

back to cancellations Monday though situation may change by mid week

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, I follow the idea of "if we'd had that money back then, things would be so much better now". But they did get an opportunity to show what they could do in the new franchise with that kind of money.

You can go "up in the clouds" on the A465 between Dowlais Top and Gilwern and see how c1.5 Billion has been spent over the last decade and there still not finished. If 10% of that had gone on rolling stock instead we probably wouldn't have had the current crisis.

In fact it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to the state of things up on the A465 as Costain would still be behind schedule arguing with WG for more money and we could have been moving people more effectively by rail in South Wales to where the jobs actually are and helping reduce road congestion around Cardiff.

 

[Envoy]

You can see the section of the A465 that is costing so much money by clicking the link and then going forward on the Streetview:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8...4!1sUYbV8UUJzfgT-Piv6v5Fdg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wa...-of-the-valleys-upgrade-through-clydach-gorge

 

[craigybagel]

Forgive my ignorance but does any part of the valleys lines have OLE?

If not then 769's are completely wasted down there.

The diesel part is meant to cover gaps. Not solely be used throughout - I can't see the ROSCO being happy that the pan is never raised.

Nope. It's mostly getting electrified as part of the franchise, but that won't be for a while.

The plan was to use 769s on the Rhymney Valley as it would both keep training costs down (I suspect the plan was to only train crew from the small Rhymney depot on them and not the comparatively give Cardiff Valleys depot as well) and it's a route that regularly sees, and requires doubled up units. The builders claim that they'll be able to match or improve upon the performance of a 150 when running on diesel so they should be a good match.

Using them on Wrexham/Chester - Liverpool services would let them use their electric capabilities, and see them run at higher speeds then a 150 could reach (Runcorn - Liverpool is mostly 85mph), but they wouldn't release as many units, and would I suspect probably require more staff training on them.

 

[Eccles1983]

But where would they be serviced?

I assume again there is no electric depot down there - and no fitters who are pan/electric trained.

Where as if they have a problem up here they can be recovered to allerton/edge hill.

It does seem to be a bit of a waste if they can not be used for several years under the wires.

 

[Envoy]

Might the 769’s also have been able to use electricity between Severn Tunnel Junction & Cardiff if used on the Cheltenham to Maesteg run - which is also suffering from overcrowding.

 

[td97]

The transcript contains a lot of interesting points, not all of which I was aware of. In particular the 769s will go on Liverpool-Chester & Chester- Wrexham.

Is the TfW 769 training likely to include using them on electric between Liverpool and Runcorn? I'm aware that some 800s run diesel only if the driver hasn't been trained on driving them in electric mode, and it is a short stretch in the scheme of things.

 

[PHILIPE]

Might the 769’s also have been able to use electricity between Severn Tunnel Junction & Cardiff if used on the Cheltenham to Maesteg run - which is also suffering from overcrowding.

Probably could, but putting them on the Maesteg to Cheltenham run apart from at peaks, perhaps, would be a waste of 2 Cars when the reason they are (hopefully) coming is to maximise capacity. I don't think TFW would want to go through the process of training drivers on electric mode considering the limited potential use.

 

[Envoy]

Probably could, but putting them on the Maesteg to Cheltenham run apart from at peaks, perhaps, would be a waste of 2 Cars when the reason they are (hopefully) coming is to maximise capacity. I don't think TFW would want to go through the process of training drivers on electric mode considering the limited potential use.

Is it such a massive training programme to tell them how to switch to electric traction?

 

[Dai Corner]

Is it such a massive training programme to tell them how to switch to electric traction?

Compared with the limited benefits it would bring, yes. There's more to it than saying "press this switch for electric, thus one for diesel" I'm sure.

 

[Cardiff123]

This is the quote from Alexia Course re: the 769s from the meeting:

But we are bringing in new fleets from next May as well. So, class 5, 769 units are coming in, which will help the Chester-Liverpool and Chester-Wrexham services from May of next year. We're also bringing in some class 230 units as well. So, passengers and customers will start to see a difference from the spring of next year, in terms of more services and more fleet that we're bringing in, and that is in advance of the brand new purpose-built fleet that we've already ordered as well.

She could mean that 769s 'will help' Chester - Liverpool and Chester - Wrexham as if 769s work on the Rhymney line as widely expected, 150s will be freed up to head north.
There's also 4 more 769s on the way (eventually) in addition to the 5 already ordered.

 

[craigybagel]

It's hard to find work for 5 769s in the North, never mind 9. It' be amazed if they appear anywhere other then on the Valleys.

 

[43096]

Given the chronic shortage of stock, and the need to take Pacers out of service, the best use of 769s is in place of 4-car diagrams, as that means they displace 2 Pacers for scrap, either directly or by cascade.

 

[Jez]

Yesterday the 1434 Cardiff to Ebbw Vale was a 3 car 175. I also saw 2x pacers on an Ebbw Vale service. Is this to do with the stock shortage of 150s or are they now booked workings? I am aware some 175s are booked to Ebbw Vale but wasn't sure which services.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yesterday the 1434 Cardiff to Ebbw Vale was a 3 car 175. I also saw 2x pacers on an Ebbw Vale service. Is this to do with the stock shortage of 150s or are they now booked workings? I am aware some 175s are booked to Ebbw Vale but wasn't sure which services.

No. Anything is working anything at the moment. Not just 150s affected but all classes but predominantly 150s.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's hard to find work for 5 769s in the North, never mind 9. It' be amazed if they appear anywhere other then on the Valleys.

Particularly as we're due to see 230s arrive up north next year.

 

[craigybagel]

But where would they be serviced?

I assume again there is no electric depot down there - and no fitters who are pan/electric trained.

Where as if they have a problem up here they can be recovered to allerton/edge hill.

It does seem to be a bit of a waste if they can not be used for several years under the wires.

Canton would seem the most logical place for servicing.

You could picture the units as being diesel electrics, like many of the locos Canton has seen throughout the years (and continues to do in a small way today with the 67s for TfW).

They're not being ordered for their electric capabilities - they're being ordered because they're pretty much all that's available in the short term, at a franchise that needs new stock NOW.

 

[DavidGrain]

A lot of comments on BBC Midlands Today about overcrowding on the Shrewsbury to Birmingham trains which have been reduced from 4 cars to 2 cars. A lot of questions asked about why are our local trains run by Transport for Wales.

Apparently the Sunday services from the May timetable change will be run by West Midlands Railways but that does not help commuters trying to get to work in Wolverhampton and Birmingham

 

[Bletchleyite]

WMR already run weekday stopping services using 3-car 170s which they could choose instead. Would they perhaps prefer some use of "u" and "s" and no English internal passengers carried at all?

 

[DavidGrain]

This mornings TV interviews took place at Smethwick Galton Bridge which is a TfW stop. WMR trains from Shrewsbury do not stop here except for two very early morning trains

 

[Gareth Marston]

WMR already run weekday stopping services using 3-car 170s which they could choose instead. Would they perhaps prefer some use of "u" and "s" and no English internal passengers carried at all?

Loading's are not un-similar on WMR services its not as though there empty trains. Because of the SRA cuts on the line in 2006 the WMR stopper is bunched up against the TFW service rather than spaced out. Departures from Shrewsbury are xx32/xx33 for TfW and xx47 for WMR. Departures from New St are xx05 for WMR and xx24 for TfW its not uncommon for TfW to catch up the WMR one up. This encourages the Telford and Wellington users to opt for TfW, TfW also go to International direct.
DfT have pulled the plug on the second WMR train per hour being introduced this December as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This mornings TV interviews took place at Smethwick Galton Bridge which is a TfW stop. WMR trains from Shrewsbury do not stop here except for two very early morning trains

No, but a load of other WMT trains do. What they mean is "we can't be bothered to get up 15 minutes earlier in order to avoid a known problem train".

I don't understand why the Welsh train stops anywhere between Wolves and New St. It's about as logical as stopping it at Marston Green or something.

 

[Cambrian359]

A lot of comments on BBC Midlands Today about overcrowding on the Shrewsbury to Birmingham trains which have been reduced from 4 cars to 2 cars. A lot of questions asked about why are our local trains run by Transport for Wales.

Apparently the Sunday services from the May timetable change will be run by West Midlands Railways but that does not help commuters trying to get to work in Wolverhampton and Birmingham

TFW don’t run their local trains,but they CHOOSE to use TFW trains because they run express which is why TFW have to run 4 and 6 coach services to cater for the locals using their service rather than the local WMT service

 

[craigybagel]

A lot of comments on BBC Midlands Today about overcrowding on the Shrewsbury to Birmingham trains which have been reduced from 4 cars to 2 cars. A lot of questions asked about why are our local trains run by Transport for Wales.

Apparently the Sunday services from the May timetable change will be run by West Midlands Railways but that does not help commuters trying to get to work in Wolverhampton and Birmingham

What will help is when WMT go 2tph, hopefully taking the strain off the TfW services.

WMR already run weekday stopping services using 3-car 170s which they could choose instead. Would they perhaps prefer some use of "u" and "s" and no English internal passengers carried at all?

Sometimes 2 cars, sometimes 4. Mostly all rather busy already.

.
I don't understand why the Welsh train stops anywhere between Wolves and New St. It's about as logical as stopping it at Marston Green or something.

Partly for connections - you'd be surprised how many people you get connecting onto the Snow Hill lines or even Chiltern in the peaks - itsi much easier then walking across Birmingham.

It also helps towards giving Smethwick the 4tph it deserves to Birmingham and Wolverhampton, and a direct service to International, without holding up Cross Country or Virgin.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What will help is when WMT go 2tph, hopefully taking the strain off the TfW services.

The scope to do so in the traditional peaks is limited, theirs already an extra working for the high peaks.

Arrivals at New St from Shrewsbury weekday AM peak
0730 TfW 4 car
0747 VT 5 car
0755 WMT 4 car
0825 WMT 2/3 car
0829 TfW 6 car
0855 WMT 4 car
0929 TfW 4 car

Departures from New St to Shrewsbury weekday PM peak

1605 WMT 4 car
1625 TfW 4 car
1705 WMT 4 car
1725 TfW 4 car
1749 WMT 2/3 car
1805 WMT 2 car
1825 TfW 4 car

Filling the gap between 1625 & 1705 should take some pressure off. However I have yet to see what the TfW plan for the corridor is in terms of strengthening existing services. Ive traveled on all 3 of the TfW evening peak departures 1625 1725 1825 and seen standing to Telford on 4 car trains for 35 minutes which is over the franchise limit of 20. The 1020 from Shrewsbury to BHM INTL was a 4 car and standing from Wellington onward this Sunday. Which according to the franchise spec everybody should be able to get a seat at off peak times!

The report in Modern Railways that they are only fitting 21x 2 Car Civitys with ETCS (i.e Cambrian to Birmingham) is slightly concerning as to what the strengthening will be on this corridor. Clarification is needed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The report in Modern Railways that they are only fitting 21x 2 Car Civitys with ETCS (i.e Cambrian to Birmingham) is slightly concerning as to what the strengthening will be on this corridor. Clarification is needed!

Yes, this is very concerning as it seems to suggest a capacity *reduction* (new stock has fewer seats than old). I'd have expected a strengthening involving 3/4 cars all the way to Aberystwyth on most or all services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, this is very concerning as it seems to suggest a capacity *reduction* (new stock has fewer seats than old). I'd have expected a strengthening involving 3/4 cars all the way to Aberystwyth on most or all services.

were getting off thread here but with an hourly service with 2 car Civitys plus 5 trains a day with 2 car coast portions its equivalent of a 25% uplift in seats between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury on today's (if it runs as planned!) capacity.

 

[Llanigraham]

Currently on a slightly crowded 4 car TfW out of New St and had one nice gentleman suggest that this train should be reserved for passengers only to Shrewsbury and anyone beyond there should wait, as they are obviously not commuters so not important!!
It is so crowded that on leaving Wolverhampton there is no one standing!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Upthread there's mention of sanding having ceased in 2016. Why?