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ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by ATW158Xpress, 25 Jun 2018.

  1. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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    Isn't the simple answer to phase out all the pacers this year, pair up the remaining 150's into 4 coach units and refurbish all the stored 319's into 769's and use them until the new stock is available? (which is unlikely to be operational for a few more years after the current deadlines due to the necessary engineering works?)
     
    Last edited: 8 Jan 2019
  2. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    If you're able to overlook the legal requirement for all stock to meet PRM accessibility standards from 2020, yes. As things stand, the 150 fleet isn't anywhere near compliant.
     
  3. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    There are certain routes you'll need to keep some 150s as 2 car units for. Wrexham - Bidston and Radyr-Coryton for a starters would have major problem, and I suspect others too.
     
  4. tomos dafis

    tomos dafis Member

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    Just before Christmas in the WG Economy and Transport committee labour Welsh economy and transport minister Ken Skates admitted that the original no growth franchise specification for the W and B franchise as let by his own party when in charge of DFT in Westminster was "dire". Make no mistake, the Welsh labour government has not always been happy with decisions made by Westminster Labour both when in power and in opposition. The truth is that successive Westminster governments, labour, coalition and Tory, have failed to respond in a timely way to address the underestimated (as of 2003) major growth in use of the railways in Wales and Borders. Now TFW/WG have inherited a largely clapped out fleet, which was immediately decimated by exceptional weather and leaf-fall conditions when they took over, leading to a serious set of problems which are now perceived and presented in the media and certain other quarters as having arisen directly as a result of TFW assuming control. :rolleyes::s
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  5. tomos dafis

    tomos dafis Member

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    If things go as planned, by late May the 230's will be operating Wrexham-Bidston, Chester - Crewe shuttles and Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog, releasing several 150's. Later on 769's can replace 4 car (2 x 2) pacer formations - if all 9 enter service this year that replaces 18 pacers but that is not the whole pacer fleet. If the 170's arrive they can run Swansea -Pembroke and Fishguard services (?) replacing 150's/153's, as well as Cheltenham- Maesteg. The major problem remaining is that only a few 150's will be PRM compliant by the end of this year, which will cause major difficulties on the valleys lines. Non-PRM compliant 153's used on Heart of Wales services will cause problems there. There are financial and time constraints on converting even more 319's to 769's given their limited life expectancy on TFW, unless circumstances are foreseen where they will be needed for longer.
    Thanks for that - wasn't sure of how many 170's and the number of carriages. Totally agree that the omission of information about units also being withdrawn is just an attempt to put a positive "spin" on the arrival of cascaded stock.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  6. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    That's a very big if, as things stand.
     
  7. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Do you have a link to the minutes specifically showing that Mr Skates admitted his own party in power were at fault?
     
  8. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Its now clear that if Porterbrook/Vivarail/GWR deliver whats promised by May and the subsequent use of 769's/230s/153's goes smoothly then with the 150 PRM programme being so far behind then and the Halton curve service to source then these units will only cover units away for PRM mods (plus new services) and provide only a small capacity boost on existing ones. The reality is it will be December 2019 when the GA 170's arrive before we see any real benefit on the ground in terms of passenger experience and even then it will be fleeting as the Pacers will have to go by 01 Jan 20. And if we still are doing PRM Mods on the 150's the first few months of 2020 could be a bit grim.........

    Also with the fitment of WSP to the 150 fleet is this being done at the same as the PRM mods or done separately? Surely this will have to be done separately in order to get it done by autumn 2019 whihc will mean more units out of action over the summer?
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  9. sw1ller

    sw1ller Member

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    Has anyone looked into the possibility of ordering more 230’s and use them on the Liverpool run? I realise it’s much busier than the Crewe line but would they really be any slower than a 150 given their far superior acceleration?

    I believe they can fulfill an order of 3 more fairly quickly now the assembly line is running. (I assume it is)
     
  10. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    I don't see how it can be justified withdrawing Pacers at the end of December this year if 150s are still being taken out of service for mods in 2020. No one wants a repeat of the crisis that we saw over this Autumn. Keeping Pacers (143s/144s) going until summer 2020 could easily be justified in this situation.
    Although the GA 156s are up for grabs so those could be snapped up. Not part of the franchise agreement I know by surely WG should be looking to fund any additional DMUs that can move for TfW right now.
     
  11. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Walesonline have reported "live" on todays Assembly Committee hearing on this autumns problems.

    I'm certainly taking this supposed quote from Jame Price on fleet changes with a pinch of salt.

    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/atw-keolis-amey-wales-stock-shortages.166304/page-22

    The actual transcript will be available in a few days
     
  12. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    88 carriages withdrawn this year, eh? The Pacers make up sixty of those, but that leaves another 28. The only other existing stock that was due to leave was the MkIII rakes, but with spares I don't think they amount to more than a dozen. Would the remainder be the "old trains" that TfW said they were hoping to get in as short-term cover for this year?
     
  13. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    None of the carriages are 'new' and the difference between 116 & 88 is 28! As I say take with a pinch of salt.
     
  14. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    I think you may have misunderstood me. I was trying to work out which 88 carriages would be leaving by the end of the year, and concluding that some of them might not be part of the current fleet (yet).

    The "old trains" I refer to would be the ones mentioned by Price(?) to the Economy/Transport Committee, the ones which were additional to existing plans, and (IIRC) might be available "from around February".

    It seems that this might give us an idea on the number of these very old trains that are coming to visit. But I look forward to seeing the full transcript before trying to do any more number crunching.

    Edit: No, you were trying to point out that 116 - 88 doesn't equal 35, as opposed to try to explain my calculation of 28 non-pacers to leave.
     
  15. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    28 non Pacers? Hard to reconcile with anything announced so is 116 vehicles in. Going back to the info graph that appeared with the franchise rolling stock plan it was 84 in and 68 out. Since then we've had another 16 in confirmed.
     
  16. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Witnesses Tweeting this morning that 150285 out on the Rhymney Line this morning but disappointed that still in ATW Livery.
     
  17. anamyd

    anamyd Member

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    Maybe it will go back in for the wrap...? Disappointed that it's in service with PRM mods and power/USB sockets...?
     
  18. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Probably wraps are being done at a different location, depends on contracts.
     
  19. anamyd

    anamyd Member

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    I can't wait to see it, even before it's wrapped! Anyone got any "pics"...?
     
  20. Phil from Mon

    Phil from Mon Member

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    Didn’t run Wednesday night but was back in service yesterday. Distinctly cold until about Hereford, and very little stock in place until Newport, but the crew were superb and produced a great meal.
     
  21. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    In terms of getting to 88, TfW will be loosing:

    58/60* Pacers (142&143s)
    8 (Class 153s)
    15 (Mark III Coaches)
    81/83* (Total)

    * Don't know if they're counting 142073 in this figure. They still have it after all.

    In terms of the other seven/five could they be referring to the 3 x 67s and 3 DVTs (not strictly carriages, but they could be included)? Or if, and it's a big if, the rumors about gaining some pacers from northern are true, they would be arriving and disappearing this year.


    In terms of 116 carriages arriving in 2019, I can count:

    9 x 4 Class 769s (36)
    5 x 3 Class 230s (15)
    8 x 3 Class 170s (24)
    4 x 2 Class 170s (8)
    Class 153s (5)
    Mark 4s (12)
    DVTs (4)

    Which gives a total of 104, 12 carriages short of the claim from Mr Price. Any guess as to what the 12 are?
     
  22. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    Why would TfW let go their own 153s but take on GWR 153s? Arguably the TfW 153s are in better condition than the FGW Blue 153s.

    The KA/TfW presentation from June last year shows the number of 153s increasing from Q2 2019 and then staying with the franchise until 2023, so the FGW 153s are supplementing what they already have.
    But still no word on if the 153s will be PRM modified so they can work alone, or if they will just be capacity boosters for permanent working with 150s.

    IF TfW are due to receive the 13 x 2 car 144s soon, that's 26 carriages to come and go by December.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2019
  23. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    Ah I missed that, I thought TfW were getting rid of their 153s, to be replaced with (presumably PRM ready) ones from GWR.

    If that's true it takes us further away from the 88 total that are going this year, but doesn't effect the running total of 104/116 that are arriving.
     
  24. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    The 153s from GWR are getting some form of work done, but they haven't said how far along the PRM route they might go. As has been pointed out many times, it's not just the toilets that need work.

    You can't count the 67s as they're not going anywhere - the MKIVs will still be hauled by them.
     
  25. tomuk

    tomuk Member

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    There are no PRM 153s. Currently no Rosco has announced plans to PRM them. There are issues with the vestibule behind the small cab and overall seating would be greatly reduced by the large toilet.

    Also if run coupled to 150s it will stop them running on some of the Valleys as 153s are 23m long and don't fit.
     
  26. Nick Ashwell

    Nick Ashwell Member

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    I'd assume they could easily be used to strengthen Maesteg services and the Newport Valleys routes (area not lines)?
     
  27. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Have you got a source for the 144, please. Too many people seem to be believing a rumour
     
  28. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    Have seen on Forums that 142073 is currently being re-incarnated
     
  29. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    I haven't no, I admit it's a rumour. But when James Price goes to Assembly committees and talks about sourcing "some very old trains" to supplement the TfW fleet on a short term basis for "6 - 9 months" this year, and these trains will be "over and above anything already committed to by Keolis Amey in the franchise", and then you look at what DMUs will be surplus to requirements soon that are also compatible with the TfW network, particularly in south Wales, it's not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that he's talking about 144s.
    He re-affirmed this again a few days ago when he talked about Valleys passengers possibly seeing an improvement in capacity by this March, if not definitely by May. If there's any capacity increase by March it'll come from 144s, as 769s aren't due until May.

    All speculation I admit but when joining the dots.........
     
  30. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    I've listened to the session on Senedd Tv James Price is 2 HR 34 min in. He says 116 in and 88 out which is roughly a gain of 35.i wouldn't trust him with the till at Newtown with those maths skills! Exploring the possibility of bringing in carriages for 10 months is said also.
     

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