ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Status
Not open for further replies.

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
11,699
Location
Caerphilly
There are no PRM 153s. Currently no Rosco has announced plans to PRM them. There are issues with the vestibule behind the small cab and overall seating would be greatly reduced by the large toilet.

Also if run coupled to 150s it will stop them running on some of the Valleys as 153s are 23m long and don't fit.
They fit the Rhymney line. Just north of Radyr is the restriction
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
They fit the Rhymney line. Just north of Radyr is the restriction
So 158's and 175's, as well as the expected cascaded 170's definitely a no-go North of Radyr too - all with cars over 23 m long? 769's will have shorter cars so could work North of Radyr but are destined for the Rhymney line - does not look good for core valley lines North of Radyr if pacers all go end of December 2019 and only about 10 150's are PRM modified by then, even if the additional 4 769's arrive before year end.
 
Last edited:

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
I heard the 88 out figure - 29 2 car pacers go plus 15(?) mk 3 carriages = 73 carriages. Where does the 88 come from - more dodgy maths? - others are obviously having some difficulty trying to reconcile the figures quoted to the committee on Wednesday.
 
Last edited:

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
Do you have a link to the minutes specifically showing that Mr Skates admitted his own party in power were at fault?
Ok if we are going to be precise, in the meeting to which I refer (and I think you know which it is as you, I believe, have responded to a post about it previously -page 18 on this thread 5 Dec. last) Ken Skates said the no-growth franchise let in 2003 was "dire" - he used that term. He obviously knew that it was his own party who were in power then as did other AM's present and anyone with political awareness would have known too. The only direct quote I included was the word "dire" which he used - I inserted the emphasised allusion to his own party to show I was aware it was labour in charge at Westminster at the time -I did not present that phrase in quotes to imply that Skates actually said that bit. In my post to which you respond here I was careful to point the finger at successive Westminster governments, labour and coalition/Tory, for failing Wales and Borders rail over the years, as they have failed rail in other regions of the UK.
I actually feel that during 13 years of power in Westminster Labour regrettably failed to tackle the flaws in the structure and organisation of the privatised railway they inherited, but I certainly am not one of those clamouring for re-nationalisation.
 

S-Bahn

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2018
Messages
256
This might sound daft, but with the new 387's and 769's that are going to GWR, wouldn't that free up some of their 150's and maybe even some of the 165's/166's that could be used in Wales for a couple of years?

Do GWR need all those Sprinters and Turbos for the West of England?
Couldn't they get a few more 769's for Thames Valley branch lines and do away with diesel in the Paddington/Reading section of the network?
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
11,699
Location
Caerphilly
Ok if we are going to be precise, in the meeting to which I refer (and I think you know which it is as you, I believe, have responded to a post about it previously -page 18 on this thread 5 Dec. last) Ken Skates said the no-growth franchise let in 2003 was "dire" - he used that term. He obviously knew that it was his own party who were in power then as did other AM's present and anyone with political awareness would have known too. The only direct quote I included was the word "dire" which he used - I inserted the emphasised allusion to his own party to show I was aware it was labour in charge at Westminster at the time -I did not present that phrase in quotes to imply that Skates actually said that bit. In my post to which you respond here I was careful to point the finger at successive Westminster governments, labour and coalition/Tory, for failing Wales and Borders rail over the years, as they have failed rail in other regions of the UK.
I actually feel that during 13 years of power in Westminster Labour regrettably failed to tackle the flaws in the structure and organisation of the privatised railway they inherited, but I certainly am not one of those clamouring for re-nationalisation.

When Tony Blair came to power in 1997 he said the Railways would be re-nationalised but that was the last we heard of it.
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
When Tony Blair came to power in 1997 he said the Railways would be re-nationalised but that was the last we heard of it.
Indeed, and as I stated Labour failed the railways in Wales and Borders and elsewhere. I personally am not convinced that wholesale re-nationalisation would have been the answer then or will be now, but I agree with those who say the system, as it is, is far from delivering what the public expect. I read a recent article by someone who claims that the UK's railways operated better immediately prior to privatisation when it was divided up into three publicly owned arms-length sectors - Inter City, Network South East and Regional Railways. No clear data were offered and I was left unclear as to what arguments there were to support a return to a similar system
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
Probably wraps are being done at a different location, depends on contracts.
Maybe the 150's will get only temporary re-branding stickers rather than wholesale repaints/vinyls? Maybe none at all? At least 2 pacers have been treated in this way, though the 150's will be in service longer depending on what happens with their PRM mods this year. With a couple of pacers carrying partial TFW branding and a small number of 175's fully vinyl-wrapped, maybe TFW are waiting for feedback, or maybe they are reluctant to roll out large-scale re-branding in the wake of the negative impression attached to the brand following the horrendous Autumn disruption?
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
In his submission to the Welsh Assembly Economy and Transport inquiry into Autumn rail chaos on TFW (http://record.assembly.wales/Committee/5151), the former managing director of ATW Wales gave the most professional, smooth, polished and flawless performance of the three organisations called to be questioned (Network Rail and TFW were the others). Plenty of "that was before my time", "I was not made aware of that" "That question should be addressed to [Network Rail, TFW]" etc. However he tacitly implied while outlining his pride in ATW's record of investment/enhancement (implied credit to ATW by careful and clever use of phrases like "before ATW came along there was no ....") that several key enhancements to the W and B network were due to incentives by his company.
1) Re-introduction of passenger services on the Vale of Glamorgan Line. In fact, the initiative for this came from Bridgend and Vale of Glamorgan local councils (not ATW) who put the case to the then Welsh Assembly Government, who later approved it. Stations at Llantwit Major and Rhoose international airport were the responsibility of V of G council, who spent £2m, and track, signals and civil engineering works were carried out by Network Rail at a cost of £15m. ATW were then involved by providing some extra rolling stock/staff above what they were contracted for, but don't tacitly claim credit for it as an ATW initiative e.g. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_Glamorgan_Line#Reopening_to_passengers)


2) Re-introduction of passenger services to Ebbw Vale - an initiative again by 3 local councils, Caerffili, Blaenau Gwent and Newport, put to Welsh Government and delivered as a joint venture between the 3 councils, Network Rail, Welsh Government and ATW with some funds coming from the EU- so ATW have no right to tacitly claim full credit for that e.g.(https://web.archive.org/web/20100225090723/http://www.blaenau-gwent.gov.uk/ebbwvalleyrailway/).
While ATW deserve credit for doing more than contractually required in many ways and for responding positively to such initiatives, it is misleading to tacitly imply or claim full credit for major enhancements and re-openings where the initiative (and much of the finance) has come form other bodies.
 
Last edited:

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
5,594
Location
North Wales
I've listened to the session on Senedd Tv James Price is 2 HR 34 min in. He says 116 in and 88 out which is roughly a gain of 35.i wouldn't trust him with the till at Newtown with those maths skills! Exploring the possibility of bringing in carriages for 10 months is said also.
I heard the 88 out figure - 29 2 car pacers go plus 15(?) mk 3 carriages = 73 carriages. Where does the 88 come from - more dodgy maths? - others are obviously having some difficulty trying to reconcile the figures quoted to the committee on Wednesday.
I haven't watched the video, and the transcript definitely reads "88" , but is it possible that he actually said "80-odd"? 116 - 80-odd would give " roughly a gain of 35" .

Eighty withdrawals is a lot easier to work out: 60 pacer carriages and 12 MkIII carriages (per Wikipedia) gets us to 72 easily. 8 153s would round that out (though the original rolling stock plan showed the ATW 153s sticking around for longer.
 
Last edited:

tomuk

Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
167
My favourite part of that session was when James Price assured the commitee that all would be well between TfW and Network Rail because he and Andrew Haines, NR CEO, were neighbours 20 years ago.:rolleyes:
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I haven't watched the video, and the transcript definitely reads "88" , but is it possible that he actually said "80-odd"? 116 - 80-odd would give " roughly a gain of 35" .

Eighty withdrawals is a lot easier to work out: 60 pacer carriages and 12 MkIII carriages (per Wikipedia) gets us to 72 easily. 8 153s would round that out (though the original rolling stock plan showed the ATW 153s sticking around for longer.
No its 100% that 116 in & 88 out was said. The 8 x 153's are not being withdrawn to anyone's knowledge.

Ive asked the Chair of the Committee Russel George whose my AM to get some clarification.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
In his submission to the Welsh Assembly Economy and Transport inquiry into Autumn rail chaos on TFW (http://record.assembly.wales/Committee/5151), the former managing director of ATW Wales gave the most professional, smooth, polished and flawless performance of the three organisations called to be questioned (Network Rail and TFW were the others). Plenty of "that was before my time", "I was not made aware of that" "That question should be addressed to [Network Rail, TFW]" etc. However he tacitly implied while outlining his pride in ATW's record of investment/enhancement (implied credit to ATW by careful and clever use of phrases like "before ATW came along there was no ....") that several key enhancements to the W and B network were due to incentives by his company.
1) Re-introduction of passenger services on the Vale of Glamorgan Line. In fact, the initiative for this came from Bridgend and Vale of Glamorgan local councils (not ATW) who put the case to the then Welsh Assembly Government, who later approved it. Stations at Llantwit Major and Rhoose international airport were the responsibility of V of G council, who spent £2m, and track, signals and civil engineering works were carried out by Network Rail at a cost of £15m. ATW were then involved by providing some extra rolling stock/staff above what they were contracted for, but don't tacitly claim credit for it as an ATW initiative e.g. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_Glamorgan_Line#Reopening_to_passengers)


2) Re-introduction of passenger services to Ebbw Vale - an initiative again by 3 local councils, Caerffili, Blaenau Gwent and Newport, put to Welsh Government and delivered as a joint venture between the 3 councils, Network Rail, Welsh Government and ATW with some funds coming from the EU- so ATW have no right to tacitly claim full credit for that e.g.(https://web.archive.org/web/20100225090723/http://www.blaenau-gwent.gov.uk/ebbwvalleyrailway/).
While ATW deserve credit for doing more than contractually required in many ways and for responding positively to such initiatives, it is misleading to tacitly imply or claim full credit for major enhancements and re-openings where the initiative (and much of the finance) has come form other bodies.
You can always write to the Committee pointing this out - if you feel that strongly about it!

I doubt looking at the Committee that any of them were even AM's when these things were done. Tom Joyner pitched his answers for the audience he had.....that's the problem with a lot of UK rail in general the underpinning decisions that we are living with are now more often than not out of the collective memory of experience of those in charge now. Its easy for all parties to 'mildly rewrite history' as the people with the knowledge to challenge are not there.

I worked for the Rail Passengers Council Wales in the early 2000's - no one from the railway scene in Wales then is around it now.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Ok if we are going to be precise, in the meeting to which I refer (and I think you know which it is as you, I believe, have responded to a post about it previously -page 18 on this thread 5 Dec. last) Ken Skates said the no-growth franchise let in 2003 was "dire" - he used that term. He obviously knew that it was his own party who were in power then as did other AM's present and anyone with political awareness would have known too. The only direct quote I included was the word "dire" which he used - I inserted the emphasised allusion to his own party to show I was aware it was labour in charge at Westminster at the time -I did not present that phrase in quotes to imply that Skates actually said that bit. In my post to which you respond here I was careful to point the finger at successive Westminster governments, labour and coalition/Tory, for failing Wales and Borders rail over the years, as they have failed rail in other regions of the UK.
I actually feel that during 13 years of power in Westminster Labour regrettably failed to tackle the flaws in the structure and organisation of the privatised railway they inherited, but I certainly am not one of those clamouring for re-nationalisation.
I'm sure if it was a Welsh Labour Minister giving this speech and then outlining there plan to address rolling stock shortages in the franchise in December 2008 not December 2018 people wouldn't be so critical and cynical (read the tfW Twitter feeds comments section on online new articles etc etc). Whilst up to 2011 the Assembly helped acquire 12 extra carriages ( 2 x 158 's in 2006 , 2 x 150's in 2008 & Gerald) on top of what the franchise started with in 2003. From 2011 to 2018 the total sum was zero. What intervention they did do after that was actually a contributory factor in the autumn crisis - the extra services on the Heart of Wales and Cambrian introduced in May 15 were all sourced by cutting back on maintenance on the 15x fleets.
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
2,826
I'm sure if it was a Welsh Labour Minister giving this speech and then outlining there plan to address rolling stock shortages in the franchise in December 2008 not December 2018 people wouldn't be so critical and cynical (read the tfW Twitter feeds comments section on online new articles etc etc). Whilst up to 2011 the Assembly helped acquire 12 extra carriages ( 2 x 158 's in 2006 , 2 x 150's in 2008 & Gerald) on top of what the franchise started with in 2003. From 2011 to 2018 the total sum was zero. What intervention they did do after that was actually a contributory factor in the autumn crisis - the extra services on the Heart of Wales and Cambrian introduced in May 15 were all sourced by cutting back on maintenance on the 15x fleets.
Which 158s are the 2 you said were acquired in 2006...? I thought Arriva Trains Wales inherited 40 158s (158-815 to 158-854) from Wales & Borders Trains in December 2003, and then at the end of 2006 when they fully acquired all 27 175s, 16 158s (158-815 to 158-817 and 158-842 to 158-854) were sent off-lease (I think the lower numbered ones are with Northern and the higher numbered ones are with East Midlands Trains), creating the 24-strong "158-818 to 158-841" batch...? Also, the 150/2s were the most significant fleet acquired by ATW - they started with only 6 and ended with 36!
 
Last edited:

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Which 158s are the 2 you said were acquired in 2006...? I thought Arriva Trains Wales inherited 40 158s (158-815 to 158-854) from Wales & Borders Trains in December 2003, and then at the end of 2006 when they fully acquired all 27 175s, 16 158s (158-815 to 158-817 and 158-842 to 158-854) were sent off-lease (I think the lower numbered ones are with Northern and the higher numbered ones are with East Midlands Trains), creating the 24-strong "158-818 to 158-841" batch...? Also, the 150/2s were the most significant fleet acquired by ATW - they started with only 6 and ended with 36!
I cant find any links directly to any announcements however the SARPA Newsletter from the time seems to have printed the official release.

http://sarpa.info/pdf archive/sarpa40.pdf

Longer trains for Cambrian Mainline
Additional funding to continue running four car trains on the Cambrian Mainline following
the successful pilot scheme carried out over the past year has this morning (Thursday
05 July 2007) been announced by Dr Brian Gibbons, Minister for the Economy and
Transport. Dr Gibbons said:
The success over the past year of these strengthened train services has relieved
overcrowding and enhanced performance along these routes and passenger numbers
are substantially up. I am pleased to be able to commit further funding to continue the
strengthening along this important cross border route.
The additional units will continue to ensure there is available capacity on the
busy Mid Wales and English Border commuter and tourist routes, as well as assisting in
the drive to increase performance on the line. This investment along with recent Assem-
bly Government announcements on Concessionary Fares and extra rolling stock in
South and North Wales is further evidence of our commitment to improving rail services
across all parts of Wales.
The continuation of funding for extra rolling stock from the Welsh Assembly
Government means that the operator Arriva Trains Wales can provide four coach trains
between Machynlleth and Birmingham on nearly all services relieving overcrowding and
providing much needed extra capacity.
The Welsh Assembly Government recognises the importance of the Cambrian
lines and as well as this latest investment in rolling stock, continues to work with local
stakeholders on making improvements to the route.
Dr Gibbons referred to his predecessors announcements for the route:
Andrew Davies announced in his tenure that Network Rail have undertaken an initial
feasibility study on improving the Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury Cambrian mainline train
service from two-hourly to hourly and there are a number of viable options.
The viable options include improved passing loops and a workable regular
hourly pattern timetable on the mainline between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, which
would benefit current performance levels and also improve journey times between the
south and north sections of the Cambrian Coast railway through improved connections.
Journey opportunities east of Shrewsbury would also be considerably improved.
The infrastructure improvements, which would facilitate the hourly service,
would also be of considerable benefit to performance under the current two hourly
service, if there were to be an interim period between their provision and the eventual
introduction of an hourly service.
Arriva Trains Wales commercial director, Mike Bagshaw said:
This is excellent news. The four-coach trains have provided much needed additional
seating capacity on this popular route. We are delighted that this investment by the
Welsh Assembly Government will continue, unlocking the potential for further growth on
this important line.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Were having a short form day on the Cambrian - not seen a 4 car service yet.

0733 SHR to BHI was 2 car this morning, quite a lot of adverse comment as you can imagine.

This guy was giving it a go on the TfW Twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/JON_BANKSY/with_replies
  1. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 3h3 hours ago


    Replying to @tfwrail
    I think that’s about the best I’m going to get from you lot on this. Hopefully our timely fare increase can speed things up a little also


    0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes










  2. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 3h3 hours ago



    Replying to @tfwrail
    Long term. Oh goodiegumdrops! Why and how did Arriva manage to have 6 Carriages on the same 07:53 train up until late last year? Please explain

    1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes









  3. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 3h3 hours ago



    Replying to @tfwrail
    So you have signed off on having customers standing daily. That’s lovely isn’t it.

    0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes









  4. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 4h4 hours ago



    Replying to @JON_BANKSY @tfwrail
    I’m fed up with the hollow apologies. You guys have done nothing since the take over and it’s miles beyond a joke now. What are you going to do? What’s the immediate plan to improve? Please enlighten us!!

    2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes









  5. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 5h5 hours ago



    Replying to @tfwrail
    No no no let’s get this right. The 07:53 has been short formed from 6 to 4 carriages every day since last summer. We stand everyday! This was short formed on top of the short formed. Since TRW took on the already poor Arriva franchise it’s been a disgrace. MP talk imminent

    1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes









  6. Jon Banks‏ @JON_BANKSY 5h5 hours ago



    @tfwrail 07:53 Telford to Brum. Late and 2 carriages so all the people in shot AMD MORE cannot get to work. Utter utter cack.


 

Cardiff123

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
979
Interesting that James Price again said to the Economy, Infrastructure & Skills committee last week that "we are looking at bringing extra trains in to 'plug the gap' that we have from May for around 10 months". Presumable that's the 'gap' TfW will have thanks to 150s going away on mass for PRM mods. Of course 10 months from May takes us to February 2020 which brings PRM mods on the extra trains into the mix.
In the same evidence he said that passengers on the Valley lines should see more capacity from 'the end of March'.
Add to that his 116 trains in and 88 trains out figure, not much in that evidence joins up.

http://record.assembly.wales/Committee/5151#A47798 Comments at 12:06

So, what we're doing is we're not just relying on 769s—albeit there's evidence at the minute to suggest that they may come in a bit earlier than we were expecting, so things have got a bit more positive rather than negative—but we are also exploring bringing in other types of rolling stock for a 10-month period from May this year, just to boost the gap that we have.384

The other thing that we are doing, and we're making real progress with it now, is we're trying to get better reliability out of the existing fleet. If we can get better reliability out of the existing fleet, we'll see more fleet utilisation, which will see more seats on the network. But there are also figures we can show you—and I'm happy to write about this—. The plan for this year is to bring in an additional 116 carriages onto the network. We'll see roughly 88 carriages coming off the network this year as well. So, you'd be net 35-ish up. So, that would be a real boost for passengers.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
5,594
Location
North Wales
TfW Rail Twitter feed is saying 769's in May..............
From the New Rolling Stock thread:
I’m led to believe they’ll be a nice new 230 sitting in Chester from March. Instructor training will start shortly. Anyone got any progress photos from Vivarail on them at all?
One 150 displaced down south would be enough to start claiming that there's more capacity. (Though they'll need more than one unit for many passengers to notice the difference.)
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
129
You can always write to the Committee pointing this out - if you feel that strongly about it!

I doubt looking at the Committee that any of them were even AM's when these things were done. Tom Joyner pitched his answers for the audience he had.....that's the problem with a lot of UK rail in general the underpinning decisions that we are living with are now more often than not out of the collective memory of experience of those in charge now. Its easy for all parties to 'mildly rewrite history' as the people with the knowledge to challenge are not there.

I worked for the Rail Passengers Council Wales in the early 2000's - no one from the railway scene in Wales then is around it now.
Advancing age means that the early 2000's seem very recent to me! So I tend to forget that turnover in AM's over the years, as you correctly point out, means that most of those at the meeting would not remember some of the line re-openings, major upgrades etc. I refer to.
 

Cardiff123

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
979
The latest issue of RAIL magazine suggests that TfW are looking to get Northern's 144s once they are surplus to requirements (p. 25). I can't see Northern's 142s being an acceptable standard to take on and that tweet specifically mentioning 142s has disappeared.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
The latest issue of RAIL magazine suggests that TfW are looking to get Northern's 144s once they are surplus to requirements (p. 25). I can't see Northern's 142s being an acceptable standard to take on and that tweet specifically mentioning 142s has disappeared.
Whoops a daisy from TfW's twitter folk- to be fair i bet there desperate beyond to give folk some positive news it must be quite soul destroying given the comments that come in to them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top