• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Status
Not open for further replies.

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,060
Location
Macclesfield
I do find the timing of these banners to be a bit premature though, KA don’t seem to grasp the timescales on the railway
I'm quite sure that they do. Given the glacial pace of progress on the railways, sticking vinyls on the old trains as soon as possible after the franchise change provides assurances to the passenger that improvements are in the pipeline, at a time when there's otherwise little to differentiate them from the previous operator who were expected to operate the old stock in perpetuity.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
the "old trains" thing doesn't even make sense, because after 1987 142s are withdrawn, 1986 150s will remain in service for a few years...

Are people REALLY getting upset and offended by a light hearted comment on the side of trains that most of the actual consumers cannot wait to get rid of?!

I use these trains every day and they are absolutely vile. The sooner they are replaced, the better. Good riddance to them.
Both these quotes highlight the point that, with enough foresight and proper planning from DfT and WG, both pacers and 150's should either have been replaced before now, or that we should at least be in a position that all will be withdrawn with adequate replacements by Dec 2019.



I'm quite sure that they do. Given the glacial pace of progress on the railways, sticking vinyls on the old trains as soon as possible after the franchise change provides assurances to the passenger that improvements are in the pipeline, at a time when there's otherwise little to differentiate them from the previous operator who were expected to operate the old stock in perpetuity.

Good point, just that the wording could be a bit less derogatory to the pacers which have, as already pointed out, helped to grow passenger numbers to a point where these units are inadequate. They should have been replaced well before now on both ATW and Northern.
 

SimonR76

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2019
Messages
13
Are people REALLY getting upset and offended by a light hearted comment on the side of trains that most of the actual consumers cannot wait to get rid of?!

I use these trains every day and they are absolutely vile. The sooner they are replaced, the better. Good riddance to them.

Yep, me too. When they're finally withdrawn, I'd kindly offer to set fire to the entire class. They've cost me enough in time over the years. Leaking, unreliable pieces of trash. As an example, only yesterday, crammed tightly into one whilst the toilet stank and rain poured through the rubber between carriages.
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
Yep, me too. When they're finally withdrawn, I'd kindly offer to set fire to the entire class. They've cost me enough in time over the years. Leaking, unreliable pieces of trash. As an example, only yesterday, crammed tightly into one whilst the toilet stank and rain poured through the rubber between carriages.
The National Railway Museum are getting 142-001 but that's a Northern unit. A few 142s may also go to heritage railways to replace/supplement their much more (mechanically) unreliable 60s DMUs. But you can torch any that no-one wants :p
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
Pacers were awful when they were brand new, let alone now.

I don't feel the need to worry about their feelings (eh?)
 
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
1,063
Location
Cardiff
Questions in The National Assembly this afternoon:

Q (5). Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of rolling stock on the Rhymney to Cardiff rail line?

A. Yes. Transport for Wales anticipates new rolling stock to be provided by May 2019, if not earlier.

Q. When James Price gave evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, he indicated that there would be additional rolling stock by May this year; if not by May, then possibly by March. Peak time, particularly coming home at peak time, on the Cardiff to Rhymney line is terrible. Seating is very hard to come by. This improvement in March/May would be very welcome. Can you provide an update on how progress is being made, what extra seats would likely be provided, how many extra seats are likely to be provided, and what further progress would be made by the end of this year?

A. Yes. Can I thank the Member for his question, and just say how much I value the pressure that the Member has placed on me and Transport for Wales to ensure that his constituents get the best possible services through Transport for Wales? They are requiring five class 769 trains for the Rhymney line. I said that we aim to have them on the tracks by May of this year, but it's my hope that we could see them delivered next month. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that capacity on the network at the moment is severely stretched, and so I'm pleased to say that capacity will be increased from 212 to 292 seats on those trains that are going to be brought into use.

Q. I believe the Minister and Transport for Wales have suggested we may in due course see tri-mode trains on this line, with both overhead electric, diesel and battery operation. How firm is that policy, because I'm aware that some concerns have been raised as to the added weight of the battery and, despite the advantage of that for coming through the Caerphilly tunnel, whether that added weight elsewhere in operation may make the trains overall less efficient? Not everyone is agreed that this is necessarily the right technical solution, given that we haven't really seen it elsewhere in the world.

A. They are tried and tested, the tri-mode trains, and they will be used on the Rhymney line from 2023. They use a mix of diesel power, overhead electric and also battery power. In terms of battery power, huge strides are being made in terms of the development of new lighter, smaller batteries, and I think, whilst there is some disagreement amongst experts at the moment, there is recognition that, as technology advances, the weight of battery units in trains and in cars will go on falling and, therefore, those units and vehicles will become more efficient and be able to cope with more passengers as well.

The whole point of our procurement exercise was that it was mode-agnostic. We were driven by the objectives, and the objective was to ensure that we could deliver as many services as frequently as possible, carrying as many people as possible, and the market assessed what would be best for each and every line, and determined that on the Rhymney line a tri-mode solution was the most appropriate.

http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5426#A48719
 
Last edited by a moderator:

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
Pacers were awful when they were brand new, let alone now.

I don't feel the need to worry about their feelings (eh?)
Questions in The National Assembly this afternoon:

Q (5). Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of rolling stock on the Rhymney to Cardiff rail line?

A. Yes. Transport for Wales anticipates new rolling stock to be provided by May 2019, if not earlier.

Q. When James Price gave evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, he indicated that there would be additional rolling stock by May this year; if not by May, then possibly by March. Peak time, particularly coming home at peak time, on the Cardiff to Rhymney line is terrible. Seating is very hard to come by. This improvement in March/May would be very welcome. Can you provide an update on how progress is being made, what extra seats would likely be provided, how many extra seats are likely to be provided, and what further progress would be made by the end of this year?

A. Yes. Can I thank the Member for his question, and just say how much I value the pressure that the Member has placed on me and Transport for Wales to ensure that his constituents get the best possible services through Transport for Wales? They are requiring five class 769 trains for the Rhymney line. I said that we aim to have them on the tracks by May of this year, but it's my hope that we could see them delivered next month. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that capacity on the network at the moment is severely stretched, and so I'm pleased to say that capacity will be increased from 212 to 292 seats on those trains that are going to be brought into use.

Q. I believe the Minister and Transport for Wales have suggested we may in due course see tri-mode trains on this line, with both overhead electric, diesel and battery operation. How firm is that policy, because I'm aware that some concerns have been raised as to the added weight of the battery and, despite the advantage of that for coming through the Caerphilly tunnel, whether that added weight elsewhere in operation may make the trains overall less efficient? Not everyone is agreed that this is necessarily the right technical solution, given that we haven't really seen it elsewhere in the world.

A. They are tried and tested, the tri-mode trains, and they will be used on the Rhymney line from 2023. They use a mix of diesel power, overhead electric and also battery power. In terms of battery power, huge strides are being made in terms of the development of new lighter, smaller batteries, and I think, whilst there is some disagreement amongst experts at the moment, there is recognition that, as technology advances, the weight of battery units in trains and in cars will go on falling and, therefore, those units and vehicles will become more efficient and be able to cope with more passengers as well.

The whole point of our procurement exercise was that it was mode-agnostic. We were driven by the objectives, and the objective was to ensure that we could deliver as many services as frequently as possible, carrying as many people as possible, and the market assessed what would be best for each and every line, and determined that on the Rhymney line a tri-mode solution was the most appropriate.

http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5426#A48719
thanks for sharing
 

Mr Apples

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2018
Messages
23
Location
Lisvane & Thornhill
Questions in The National Assembly this afternoon:

Q (5). Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of rolling stock on the Rhymney to Cardiff rail line?

A. Yes. Transport for Wales anticipates new rolling stock to be provided by May 2019, if not earlier.

Q. When James Price gave evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, he indicated that there would be additional rolling stock by May this year; if not by May, then possibly by March. Peak time, particularly coming home at peak time, on the Cardiff to Rhymney line is terrible. Seating is very hard to come by. This improvement in March/May would be very welcome. Can you provide an update on how progress is being made, what extra seats would likely be provided, how many extra seats are likely to be provided, and what further progress would be made by the end of this year?

A. Yes. Can I thank the Member for his question, and just say how much I value the pressure that the Member has placed on me and Transport for Wales to ensure that his constituents get the best possible services through Transport for Wales? They are requiring five class 769 trains for the Rhymney line. I said that we aim to have them on the tracks by May of this year, but it's my hope that we could see them delivered next month. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that capacity on the network at the moment is severely stretched, and so I'm pleased to say that capacity will be increased from 212 to 292 seats on those trains that are going to be brought into use.

Q. I believe the Minister and Transport for Wales have suggested we may in due course see tri-mode trains on this line, with both overhead electric, diesel and battery operation. How firm is that policy, because I'm aware that some concerns have been raised as to the added weight of the battery and, despite the advantage of that for coming through the Caerphilly tunnel, whether that added weight elsewhere in operation may make the trains overall less efficient? Not everyone is agreed that this is necessarily the right technical solution, given that we haven't really seen it elsewhere in the world.

A. They are tried and tested, the tri-mode trains, and they will be used on the Rhymney line from 2023. They use a mix of diesel power, overhead electric and also battery power. In terms of battery power, huge strides are being made in terms of the development of new lighter, smaller batteries, and I think, whilst there is some disagreement amongst experts at the moment, there is recognition that, as technology advances, the weight of battery units in trains and in cars will go on falling and, therefore, those units and vehicles will become more efficient and be able to cope with more passengers as well.

The whole point of our procurement exercise was that it was mode-agnostic. We were driven by the objectives, and the objective was to ensure that we could deliver as many services as frequently as possible, carrying as many people as possible, and the market assessed what would be best for each and every line, and determined that on the Rhymney line a tri-mode solution was the most appropriate.

http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5426#A48719
I hope they are not going to increase the seating capacity from 212 to 292 by going to 3 + 2 seating. That would be a disaster. People would just take up 2 seats each, effectively making it 2 + 1 seating.
 

Hwnt52

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
45
Location
Cardiff
I hope they are not going to increase the seating capacity from 212 to 292 by going to 3 + 2 seating. That would be a disaster. People would just take up 2 seats each, effectively making it 2 + 1 seating.
The 769s for Wales are being converted from 319/0 units which I believe are 3 + 2.
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
The 769s for Wales are being converted from 319/0 units which I believe are 3 + 2.
the 5 "original" 769s ordered by the Welsh Government under Arriva Trains Wales in 2017 are being converted from 319/0s, but the 4 "extra" 769s ordered by Transport for Wales in November 2018 are being converted from 319/4s. so far the unit numbers are:

769-002
769-003
769-006
769-007
769-008
769-426

and 3 more /4s

Not sure what seating layout the 319/4s have...?
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
Won’t all the seating be stripped out and replaced anyway?? What seating layout was there originally won’t matter.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,060
Location
Macclesfield
Not sure what seating layout the 319/4s have...?
2+2 in the central saloon and 3+2 in the smaller sections between the doors and vehicle ends (Plus 2+1 in first but I don't know whether that'll remain declassified or be altered).

Interior shot (Credit: Peter Skuce) here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3194xx_A_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG
Won’t all the seating be stripped out and replaced anyway??
It isn't in the Northern units, and if TFW are in a hurry to get their units into service then I doubt it will on those trains either.
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
It’ll be a shame if it is 3+2 but I’d think passengers that will be using it won’t mind at first. I think more space to stand and put bikes etc would make better use of the available space.
 

paddyb6

Member
Joined
21 May 2018
Messages
223
175107 fire today between Hereford and Abergavenny won't help TfW - another unit out
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
175107 fire today between Hereford and Abergavenny won't help TfW - another unit out
Uh oh! On another note, 158-822 and 158-826 (two of the PRM modified TfW 158s) are in the process of going into TfW livery according to Livery Changes, page 32, RAIL magazine issue 872, so look out for them! They should look a bit like my avatar :D
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
107 is being dragged from Shrewsbury to Chester in the next few hours if anyone’s interested. Get a look at some of the damage.
 

AMD

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
607
The National Railway Museum are getting 142-001 but that's a Northern unit.
For clarity (if a bit off topic in this thread), the NRM has designated 1x 142, not necessarily 142001. They will obviously be looking for the one that will require the least amount of money to get up to a standard for display.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,318
For clarity (if a bit off topic in this thread), the NRM has designated 1x 142, not necessarily 142001. They will obviously be looking for the one that will require the least amount of money to get up to a standard for display.
In that case they may well want a TfW 142 as they are arguably in better condition internally than Northern's
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,045
Location
North Wales
In that case they may well want a TfW 142 as they are arguably in better condition internally than Northern's
True, but they're in a far-better-than-original condition, in terms of their internal refit. I think that for a museum piece they'll want something more "period".
 
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
1,063
Location
Cardiff
To observations from my morning commute today:

There were two class 153s working as a pair on one of the City Line diagrams, something I've never seen before and seemed a tad unnecessary.

At 0830 there wasn't a single train in the sidings on the south side of the Canton Depot.

Could it be that the 150 PRM modifications have been stepped up a gear?
 

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,272
Location
Neath
Two 153 a together on city line does seem unusual. Have they increased capacity in the morning peak due to overcrowding when a single 153 is on the line? Noticed quite a few 158 and 150 on Manchester to South Wales services on Saturday as well as the booked working.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,079
To observations from my morning commute today:

There were two class 153s working as a pair on one of the City Line diagrams, something I've never seen before and seemed a tad unnecessary.

At 0830 there wasn't a single train in the sidings on the south side of the Canton Depot.

Could it be that the 150 PRM modifications have been stepped up a gear?

Two 153 a together on city line does seem unusual. Have they increased capacity in the morning peak due to overcrowding when a single 153 is on the line? Noticed quite a few 158 and 150 on Manchester to South Wales services on Saturday as well as the booked working.

Being down an extra 3 car 175 after the Pontrilas fire won't have helped much.
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
Two 153 a together on city line does seem unusual. Have they increased capacity in the morning peak due to overcrowding when a single 153 is on the line? Noticed quite a few 158 and 150 on Manchester to South Wales services on Saturday as well as the booked working.
I noted this pair of 153's working the 15:51 Cardiff Central - Coryton this afternoon so they were on this diagram all today.
I had travelled on a 3-car 175 (sparsely populated) from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff - the unit then went ECS to Canton sheds.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top