ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

[Brian Aylott]

A photo seen on Flickr shows a 150/2 in Arriva Train Care Crewe undergoing major repair plenty of fresh metal going into lower body side. I presume this part of the PRM work.

Also 158s definitely are attending Wabtec Doncaster for some work, major exams/bogies maybe? Have seen a couple photos taken of the past year.

158s only go to Wabtec for C4 (bogie +) overhauls - larger C6 etc overhauls go to ATC Crewe
Brian

 

[iantherev]

If the ex Wessex Trains 150s are anything like the GWR examples they may be away for some time...

 

[iantherev]

A photo seen on Flickr shows a 150/2 in Arriva Train Care Crewe undergoing major repair plenty of fresh metal going into lower body side. I presume this part of the PRM work.

Also 158s definitely are attending Wabtec Doncaster for some work, major exams/bogies maybe? Have seen a couple photos taken of the past year.

The worrying thing is that 285 isn’t one of the units which has had prolonged exposure to the Dawlish Sea Wall at one time.

 

[anamyd]

Only one 158 left on the "not yet spotted" section of my list (page 4) and it's 158-836. I'm guessing it's currently being modified...?

 

[craigybagel]

Only one 158 left on the "not yet spotted" section of my list (page 4) and it's 158-836. I'm guessing it's currently being modified...?

No, it's supposed to be in Machynlleth right now having worked down from Pwlheli last night.

 

[anamyd]

No, it's supposed to be in Machynlleth right now having worked down from Pwlheli last night.

Oh OK thanks for that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

1G31 0830 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL is running through as 2 car and then back as 1J15 1209 BHM INTL to Aberystwyth & Pwllheli with the coast portion starting at Machynlleth on a fairly regular basis now.

 

[Rhydgaled]

First modified 158 ran through Newtown ECS to Machynlleth half an hour ago.

158822 external shot of retention tanks attached.

Those tanks look alot smaller than I expected. Is that the normal size for retention tanks, I've never looked for such things before?

I did think that not a lot has been happening since those first two 158s were done. Maybe someone could help me with the 150s because they're almost 50 miles out of area for me and I won't really be able to see any for around a week.

Now that the 'Pembroke Coast Express' has gone back into hibernation (perhaps never to return, although hopefully the name (and a limited-stop calling pattern of some description) will be kept when the class 800s take over) I'm unlikely to see many trains for some time; but last Saturday (8/Sept/2018) I saw 150229 in Carmarthen and it did NOT appear to have been modified (neither did 150281 on 25/Aug/2018 when I had a rather strange-sounding ride on it (the engine in my coach appeared to be idling the whole time with the other coach doing all the work of moving the train)).

 

[Cardiff123]

It doesn't appear that there are any PRM modified 150/2s in service yet. Only 15 months left to get 36 done, along with around 22 x 158s.

 

[Parallel]

It doesn't appear that there are any PRM modified 150/2s in service yet. Only 15 months left to get 36 done, along with around 22 x 158s.

I still find it shocking and unacceptable. The impression given seems to be there is no urgency. The WG should be ashamed as passengers using routes operated by 150s and 158s are going to be put through the mill over the next year. Only a few years ago, ATW were in a slightly better position than GWR with stock (who operated HST MKIIIs, 143s, 150s, 153s, 158s, 165s & 166s) that all needed the mods but how things have changed... Or haven't, in W&B's case.

 

[anamyd]

Those tanks look alot smaller than I expected. Is that the normal size for retention tanks, I've never looked for such things before?

Now that the 'Pembroke Coast Express' has gone back into hibernation (perhaps never to return, although hopefully the name (and a limited-stop calling pattern of some description) will be kept when the class 800s take over) I'm unlikely to see many trains for some time; but last Saturday (8/Sept/2018) I saw 150229 in Carmarthen and it did NOT appear to have been modified (neither did 150281 on 25/Aug/2018 when I had a rather strange-sounding ride on it (the engine in my coach appeared to be idling the whole time with the other coach doing all the work of moving the train)).

Thank you Yeah I spotted 150-257 in Carmarthen today also non-modified. 285 may be the first; it's having a full refurb from the bare metal... And yeah 281 running on 285hp rather than 570hp - did the acceleration / speed suffer a lot then...? I've heard of at least one 175 with an engine out as well.

 

[Cardiff123]

I still find it shocking and unacceptable. The impression given seems to be there is no urgency. The WG should be ashamed as passengers using routes operated by 150s and 158s are going to be put through the mill over the next year. Only a few years ago, ATW were in a slightly better position than GWR with stock (who operated HST MKIIIs, 143s, 150s, 153s, 158s, 165s & 166s) that all needed the mods but how things have changed... Or haven't, in W&B's case.

Which is why Wales desperately needs any trains it can get it's hands on - Northern Pacers, 769s, LHCS, anything - like yesterday.

 

[anamyd]

Why haven't I seen either of the first two modified 158s since last month...?

 

[PHILIPE]

Why haven't I seen either of the first two modified 158s since last month...?

Because you haven't been there when they went by. Seriously, probably just co-incidence

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Why haven't I seen either of the first two modified 158s since last month...?

Well 822 has done Cardiff to Holyhead and back to Maesteg today and 831 has been pretty much everywhere except Cardiff today. So they are out and about.

 

[anamyd]

Thanks for that, good to know

 

[craigybagel]

Why haven't I seen either of the first two modified 158s since last month...?

I've worked them both, they're definitely both out and about and have been modded.

 

[Cardiff123]

From the 769 thread:

ATW are telling people via Twitter that the 769s are still undergoing testing and will be available to them in April 2019

Judging by the reaction from ATW passengers to the latest short forms because of trains away for PRM mods with no cover, and the consequent overcrowding, I don't think TfW are truly ready for the anger and abuse that will be directed at them from 15th October due to the severe overcrowding at peak time, every day.
Passengers saying they cannot board Rhymney trains at Cardiff Queen St, that have started at Cardiff Central, is very serious and cannot be ignored and brushed off with the usual "we don't have any trains to lease" excuse.
I get the 769 problems, but surely LHCS could be rented? It happened on Windemere in the summer.
Or if Northern start releasing 142s before Xmas, get those. Of course the sticking point will be who stumps up the cash.

 

[Cardiff123]

Could anyone see us getting to a situation where trains are withdrawn from some quieter routes and buses laid on instead, so the trains that are actually available in Wales can be sent to boost capacity on the busiest routes?

The 153 on the Cardiff Bay shuttle could be used to strengthen Rhymney trains and ticket acceptance agreed on the Cardiff bus Baycar route. The City line is another route that is already well served by Cardiff buses, trains could be taken from there to strengthen Valleys & VoG trains.

The Blaenau Festiniog branch could be bustituted and the 150 from there spared. Solving the short forms of 158s isn't as easy.
Although i'm pretty sure TfW won't want to be seen closing routes due to train shortages as soon as it takes over the franchise.

Alternatively, Porterbrook could hire locos and drag the 319s up and down the Valleys.

 

[Rhydgaled]

And yeah 281 running on 285hp rather than 570hp - did the acceleration / speed suffer a lot then...?

As far as I recall from when I looked on RealTimeTrains afterwards it was only a few minutes down (no more than 5) at Whitland and Narberth (where I left the train) and had made up time by Tenby (so maybe the traincrew managed to get it going again, although it might just be down to the lack of information updates on the Pembrokeshire routes). In any case the 150 wasn't significantly late as I managed to film the HST coming the other way (which would have passed the 150 at Tenby) not far off schedule.

I get the 769 problems, but surely LHCS could be rented? It happened on Windemere in the summer.
Or if Northern start releasing 142s before Xmas, get those. Of course the sticking point will be who stumps up the cash.

Do Porterbrook own anything that is fully-servicable, off-lease and capable of working on W&B routes without infrustructure modifications? If so, and we've already paid Porterbrook to lease the 769s from August 2018 (which I think was the original date), is there any scope to say "we've paid, now if you aren't going to deliver the goods (769s) give us alternative goods (Pacers?) in leiu"? Or have Porterbrook simply given ATW and WAG their money back for the first few months of the lease that won't now be happening? I which case that money could be used to lease something from an alternative ROSCO.

Is the track on the ValleyLines continuously welded rail?

There are probably some mark 2 aircon rakes out there that could be used; the issue is that the DBSOs won't work with a reliable diesel loco, so if you want to avoid top&tail these not alot you can do. About the only terminal stations on the franchise I can think of that have run-round loops now are Carmarthen, Blaenau Ffestiniog and Holyhead I think. Carmarthen isn't much help because nearly everything there goes into Swansea where a loco can't run round. I suppose a Carmarthen-Tenby shuttle (using the passing loop to run round) might be possible with passengers changing onto a bus (or a 153) at Tenby from Pembroke Dock, but at most it'd buy you one unit and (summer excepted) it's not a busy part of the network to benifit from a longer (LHCS) train.

Solving the short forms of 158s isn't as easy.
...
Alternatively, Porterbrook could hire locos and drag the 319s up and down the Valleys.

Cutting Holyhead-Birmingham back to Birmingham-Chester would save two units I believe; if you're bringing in locos anyway the Chester-Holyhead leg could then be worked by a rake of mark 2s (I'm assuming run-round is possible at Chester given the multiple through platforms). You could even do Holyhead-Chester-Crewe-Stafford-Bescot Stadium-Soho-BHM-Aston-Bescot Stadium-Stafford-Crewe-Chester-Holyhead avoiding the need to run-round anywhere except Holyhead and reducing the Birmingham-Holyhead journey time as a bonus. It might have to use the 'slow' lines on the WCML and it probably couldn't call at Wolverhampton due to unavailability of paths through that station (I'm not suggesting it call at Bescot and Aston, just listed them to explain the routing).

 

[Gareth Marston]

As far as I recall from when I looked on RealTimeTrains afterwards it was only a few minutes down (no more than 5) at Whitland and Narberth (where I left the train) and had made up time by Tenby (so maybe the traincrew managed to get it going again, although it might just be down to the lack of information updates on the Pembrokeshire routes). In any case the 150 wasn't significantly late as I managed to film the HST coming the other way (which would have passed the 150 at Tenby) not far off schedule.

Do Porterbrook own anything that is fully-servicable, off-lease and capable of working on W&B routes without infrustructure modifications? If so, and we've already paid Porterbrook to lease the 769s from August 2018 (which I think was the original date), is there any scope to say "we've paid, now if you aren't going to deliver the goods (769s) give us alternative goods (Pacers?) in leiu"? Or have Porterbrook simply given ATW and WAG their money back for the first few months of the lease that won't now be happening? I which case that money could be used to lease something from an alternative ROSCO.

Is the track on the ValleyLines continuously welded rail?

There are probably some mark 2 aircon rakes out there that could be used; the issue is that the DBSOs won't work with a reliable diesel loco, so if you want to avoid top&tail these not alot you can do. About the only terminal stations on the franchise I can think of that have run-round loops now are Carmarthen, Blaenau Ffestiniog and Holyhead I think. Carmarthen isn't much help because nearly everything there goes into Swansea where a loco can't run round. I suppose a Carmarthen-Tenby shuttle (using the passing loop to run round) might be possible with passengers changing onto a bus (or a 153) at Tenby from Pembroke Dock, but at most it'd buy you one unit and (summer excepted) it's not a busy part of the network to benifit from a longer (LHCS) train.

Cutting Holyhead-Birmingham back to Birmingham-Chester would save two units I believe; if you're bringing in locos anyway the Chester-Holyhead leg could then be worked by a rake of mark 2s (I'm assuming run-round is possible at Chester given the multiple through platforms). You could even do Holyhead-Chester-Crewe-Stafford-Bescot Stadium-Soho-BHM-Aston-Bescot Stadium-Stafford-Crewe-Chester-Holyhead avoiding the need to run-round anywhere except Holyhead and reducing the Birmingham-Holyhead journey time as a bonus. It might have to use the 'slow' lines on the WCML and it probably couldn't call at Wolverhampton due to unavailability of paths through that station (I'm not suggesting it call at Bescot and Aston, just listed them to explain the routing).

You've not got any turnaround time at Chester with current timetable.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Alternatively, Porterbrook could hire locos and drag the 319s up and down the Valleys.

What should have happened in first place, under BR it would have just happened as a temp solution done quietly by someone in a middle management grade but undertone current system we had to try and make money for the ROSCO.....

 

[Dai Corner]

What should have happened in first place, under BR it would have just happened as a temp solution done quietly by someone in a middle management grade but undertone current system we had to try and make money for the ROSCO.....

We had Cl 37s in the Rhymney Valley earlier this century. They have them even now on the Cumbrian coast and in East Anglia. Where there's a will there's a way. I'm not sure whether they're TOC or DfT initiatives though. We need an enthusiast at TfW!

 

[craigybagel]

Training up the crews alone would take months - it's been a long time since loco hauled happened on the valleys! Getting them to Windermere was one thing - it was still a very limited service, on a short branch line close to WCRC HQ at Carnforth. Getting a set on an all day diagram so it's able to free up a unit would be nigh on impossible on the valleys. It would be difficult enough even on the North Wales coast where a limited amount of crews can work them. And that's assuming you can find a serviceable loco and rake of coaches that can run ask day and keep to time. And bear in mind, they won't meet PRM either!

Northern Rail will probably be able to release some DMUs sooner then LHCS could be put into service, and if as suggested it's 144s the training required for ATW crews would be minimal.

 

[Cardiff123]

What should have happened in first place, under BR it would have just happened as a temp solution done quietly by someone in a middle management grade but undertone current system we had to try and make money for the ROSCO.....

Yes, this is a situation that BR would have handled with ease, with trains shuffled around accordingly. Instead we are trapped in the privatised, fragmented railway where cash has to be milked out of the system at every stage.

Training up the crews alone would take months - it's been a long time since loco hauled happened on the valleys! Getting them to Windermere was one thing - it was still a very limited service, on a short branch line close to WCRC HQ at Carnforth. Getting a set on an all day diagram so it's able to free up a unit would be nigh on impossible on the valleys. It would be difficult enough even on the North Wales coast where a limited amount of crews can work them. And that's assuming you can find a serviceable loco and rake of coaches that can run ask day and keep to time. And bear in mind, they won't meet PRM either!

Northern Rail will probably be able to release some DMUs sooner then LHCS could be put into service, and if as suggested it's 144s the training required for ATW crews would be minimal.

Maybe that's the case, but those 144s can't come quick enough. They are needed this side of Christmas, not after Christmas. We've got a perfect storm coming up:

Trains out for PRM mods
Trains under repair for flat wheels & autumn damage
The short forms and cancellations this will cause
Christmas shoppers & associated shopping
And the overcrowding all of this will cause

Combined with unreasonably high expectations from passengers of the new franchise.

I'm surprised TfW are moving so fast to re-brand everything. I'd wait till the New Year when autumn is out of the way.

 

[Dai Corner]

Canton crews sign 67s and stock, of course. I've no idea whether any such are available to lease.

The Cumbrian service I had in mind was the Barrow - Carlisle via the coast., not the temporary and now ceased WCRC one to Windermere.

 

[craigybagel]

Canton crews sign 67s and stock, of course. I've no idea whether any such are available to lease.

The Cumbrian service I had in mind was the Barrow - Carlisle via the coast., not the temporary and now ceased WCRC one to Windermere.

A very small amount of Cardiff drivers do indeed sign it - but none who sign the valleys as was suggested. Also, no guards there sign it - the nearest depot that do is Shrewsbury.

Fair point about the Cumbrian Coast - but that was planned to last for several years so it was worth the investment in training staff and modifying stock to suit the line.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, this is a situation that BR would have handled with ease, with trains shuffled around accordingly. Instead we are trapped in the privatised, fragmented railway where cash has to be milked out of the system at every stage.



Maybe that's the case, but those 144s can't come quick enough. They are needed this side of Christmas, not after Christmas. We've got a perfect storm coming up:

Trains out for PRM mods
Trains under repair for flat wheels & autumn damage
The short forms and cancellations this will cause
Christmas shoppers & associated shopping
And the overcrowding all of this will cause

Combined with unreasonably high expectations from passengers of the new franchise.

I'm surprised TfW are moving so fast to re-brand everything. I'd wait till the New Year when autumn is out of the way.

The narrative is that everything is better when controlled from Cardiff so they are maybe not being pragmatic with the rebranding as in the real world changing the geographic location of the main decision maker is neither here or here as to what actually happens. Short of a convoy of new/cascaded stock running through the Severn Tunnel on the morning of the 14th October with James Price the Head of Transport Wales in the front cab with a halo over his head there's probably going to be a very short honeymoon period......

 

[Cardiff123]

The narrative is that everything is better when controlled from Cardiff so they are maybe not being pragmatic with the rebranding as in the real world changing the geographic location of the main decision maker is neither here or here as to what actually happens. Short of a convoy of new/cascaded stock running through the Severn Tunnel on the morning of the 14th October with James Price the Head of Transport Wales in the front cab with a halo over his head there's probably going to be a very short honeymoon period......

I'd say any honeymoon period will be over by the end of the first week.
I can't think of a franchise that has been dealt a worse hand to start with.

 

[krus_aragon]

On the topic of fleet shortages, today's 1252 Holyhead - Maesteg is being worked by a 150. In fairness to it, it didn't lose any time overall on the inbound journey from Cardiff this morning: Left CDF 15 late, arrived HHD 15 late, on a diagram timed for a 175.