ATW Premier Service

[Paule23]

I enjoyed this service yesterday, Leek and potato soup, sea bass followed by apple pie and custard, yum yum! I was surprised there were only 5 people using the service but what a pleasure to eat at a table with a tablecloth on train. I heartily recommend it and I'm looking forward to Friday when I get to use the service again.

I then connect to two separate trains to Glasgow, good opportunity to stock up on sandwiches and biscuits!

 

[jones_bangor]

Thats an interesting one for Vale Of Clwyd businesses to make, first Ive heard of that, who are they. I agree the Wag Express will continue for the foreseeable future, with so much spent on DVT/67/mark3 stock by WG, £3.5 millions is no small amount. However Sunday is a busy day for most areas,but only 2 each way North/South.

Correction: this came from the "Vale of Clwyd Trades Council".

 

[harri2626]

Or get the Welsh Governmnet to keep chucking money at it to maintain a fancy dinning car for the few not the many.

How many seats are there in 1st Class? 18 I think?

Fair point, Paul but surely the point of this provision is to try to get users who would not normally dream of taking the train for this journey, and to get them out of their cars. Are the Standard Class coaches overcrowded on this service? I'm not certain but there doesn't seem to be much publicity about the Dining Car service. If there was, we might end up complaining that it is always full.

 

[merlodlliw]

Correction: this came from the "Vale of Clwyd Trades Council".

Ah yes, they complained two months ago about the Premier Wag departing at 1821,their complaint then was, its too late for their members who work in the statutory sector. Similar came from their North Wales region.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I enjoyed this service yesterday, Leek and potato soup, sea bass followed by apple pie and custard, yum yum! I was surprised there were only 5 people using the service but what a pleasure to eat at a table with a tablecloth on train. I heartily recommend it and I'm looking forward to Friday when I get to use the service again.

I then connect to two separate trains to Glasgow, good opportunity to stock up on sandwiches and biscuits!

When I have used this train,five is above average,the travelling Chef never seems to have caught on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair point, Paul but surely the point of this provision is to try to get users who would not normally dream of taking the train for this journey, and to get them out of their cars. Are the Standard Class coaches overcrowded on this service? I'm not certain but there doesn't seem to be much publicity about the Dining Car service. If there was, we might end up complaining that it is always full.

Standard is well supported, but never overcrowded,for whatever reason the Premier dinner service,very well advertised by ATW, just never caught on, the later departure may or may not increase custom in First, as for car users predominately within the stationary sector, unless expenses change it is far more lucrative to travel to Cardiff by car, how you capture the business sector to travel on this train remains on how many travel to Cardiff from the North.

I fully expected the Chef service to be replaced by the W/S system from September due to such low take up, but the Minister has decided WG will fund the Chef service until the next franchise, so be it.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair point, Paul but surely the point of this provision is to try to get users who would not normally dream of taking the train for this journey, and to get them out of their cars. Are the Standard Class coaches overcrowded on this service? I'm not certain but there doesn't seem to be much publicity about the Dining Car service. If there was, we might end up complaining that it is always full.

Standard is well supported, but never overcrowded,for whatever reason the service Premier dinner service,very well advertised by ATW, just never caught on, the later departure may or may not increase custom in First, as for car users predominately within the stationary sector, unless expenses change it is far more lucrative to travel to Cardiff by car, how you capture the business sector to travel on this train remains on how many travel to Cardiff from the North.

I fully expected the Chef service to be replaced by the W/S system from September due to such low take up, but the Minister has decided WG will fund the Chef service until the next franchise, so be it.

Bob

 

[harri2626]

Ah yes, they complained two months ago about the Premier Wag departing at 1821,their complaint then was, its too late for their members who work in the statutory sector. Similar came from their North Wales region.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


When I have used this train,five is above average,the travelling Chef never seems to have caught on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Standard is well supported, but never overcrowded,for whatever reason the Premier dinner service,very well advertised by ATW, just never caught on, the later departure may or may not increase custom in First, as for car users predominately within the stationary sector, unless expenses change it is far more lucrative to travel to Cardiff by car, how you capture the business sector to travel on this train remains on how many travel to Cardiff from the North.

I fully expected the Chef service to be replaced by the W/S system from September due to such low take up, but the Minister has decided WG will fund the Chef service until the next franchise, so be it.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's hope the franchise lasts longer than the Minister's term in office. Perhaps the answer (not only for the WAG train) is to declassify the dining car and make it a chargeable menu on a "first come, first served" basis. Whatever the outcome, all rail-lovers should support this facility because it provides real food instead of the sub-pub-grub offered by most rail companies.

Finally, and sorry to keep labouring this thread, but I've just noticed that in the Winter timetable download, the 1st/Restaurant symbol is not shown for the northbound service. Is this a simple error or something more sinister?

 

[PaulHarding150]

Fair point, Paul but surely the point of this provision is to try to get users who would not normally dream of taking the train for this journey, and to get them out of their cars. Are the Standard Class coaches overcrowded on this service? I'm not certain but there doesn't seem to be much publicity about the Dining Car service. If there was, we might end up complaining that it is always full.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting people out of their cars, but why does this train need to be a non regular carage, specailly acquired, why does it need a travelling chef that would not survive without a subsidy from the government?

Whatever the outcome, all rail-lovers should support this facility because it provides real food instead of the sub-pub-grub offered by most rail companies.

But why should taxes subsidise a fancy meal for a few people? I say a few people I've seen that train leave Newport with 2 people in 1st.

There is no way without the government subsidy that chef would be there.

You might think it's quaint and reminds you of the romantic age of rail, I think it's yet more examples of governments p***ing money up the wall.

 

[headshot119]

Ah yes, they complained two months ago about the Premier Wag departing at 1821,their complaint then was, its too late for their members who work in the statutory sector. Similar came from their North Wales region.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


When I have used this train,five is above average,the travelling Chef never seems to have caught on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Standard is well supported, but never overcrowded,for whatever reason the Premier dinner service,very well advertised by ATW, just never caught on, the later departure may or may not increase custom in First, as for car users predominately within the stationary sector, unless expenses change it is far more lucrative to travel to Cardiff by car, how you capture the business sector to travel on this train remains on how many travel to Cardiff from the North.

I fully expected the Chef service to be replaced by the W/S system from September due to such low take up, but the Minister has decided WG will fund the Chef service until the next franchise, so be it.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's hope the franchise lasts longer than the Minister's term in office. Perhaps the answer (not only for the WAG train) is to declassify the dining car and make it a chargeable menu on a "first come, first served" basis. Whatever the outcome, all rail-lovers should support this facility because it provides real food instead of the sub-pub-grub offered by most rail companies.

Finally, and sorry to keep labouring this thread, but I've just noticed that in the Winter timetable download, the 1st/Restaurant symbol is not shown for the northbound service. Is this a simple error or something more sinister?

It is a simple error.

 

[jones_bangor]

Let's hope the franchise lasts longer than the Minister's term in office. Perhaps the answer (not only for the WAG train) is to declassify the dining car and make it a chargeable menu on a "first come, first served" basis. Whatever the outcome, all rail-lovers should support this facility because it provides real food instead of the sub-pub-grub offered by most rail companies.

Finally, and sorry to keep labouring this thread, but I've just noticed that in the Winter timetable download, the 1st/Restaurant symbol is not shown for the northbound service. Is this a simple error or something more sinister?

I think the Minister lost a lot of credibility trying to claim that the changes were an increase and improvement in the fast service. He needs to "get up to the pace" quickly on rail issues in Wales, as ATW are up to their usual tricks of smoke and mirrors and running rings round Welsh Government.

 

[merlodlliw]

It is a simple error.

Agree just a simple error, in fact this was reported several weeks ago, so I dont know why it has not changed, the cup & Saucer in place of the trolley would have been alarming to some.

 

[sparks2000]

You might think it's quaint and reminds you of the romantic age of rail, I think it's yet more examples of governments p***ing money up the wall.

I see your point but wonder at the perceived cost vs the real cost.
Two people thats about £222.80 in fares (anytime). Assuming those people would have travelled standard then the marginal increased fare for that journey is about £63.20.
So, weekly income is £316
Annually = £16,432
Profit on alcohol sales to be added in

The train will run anyway and the extra coach is probably not extra - so is there a marginal rolling stock cost?
There is a cost to lease a loco hauled set but is that a true additional cost - could it be replaced at not cost with another set?
The staff - seems like a chef and 2 waiting staff - that's overdoing it! If they are paid by the hour what is the cost of that at minimum wage? About £35 per employee? plus some waiting time costs at CDF.

Less costs to pay those people benefits if they were unemployed
Food costs - probably about £10-15?

So, there's my perceived rose tinted view of how cheaply it could be run - what does it really cost?
The argument would be completely different if the carriage was being used to displace standard accommodation in short supply (don't think this applies here).
Does the government subsidy allow for increased employment through increased trade? - hard to see that but there must be a business case somewhere to get any subsidy approved?
Selling the food might change the economics dramatically.

For a fact I will choose to travel by train on Tuesday rather than drive because I can enjoy my dinner on the train - I would do that day in day out if I had to go CDF to points north (except for the cost to waistline).

Sorry for poor structure of this post - short on time...

 

[merlodlliw]

I think the Minister lost a lot of credibility trying to claim that the changes were an increase and improvement in the fast service. He needs to "get up to the pace" quickly on rail issues in Wales, as ATW are up to their usual tricks of smoke and mirrors and running rings round Welsh Government.

But are the mark 3s not an improvement, I agree ATW were up to their old tricks by bypassing consultation & it was only when others complained WG Rail Unit actually made ATW consult, ATW got away with too much in the May timetable,WG should have stepped in then.

"Sparks," To run the Chef Service means 2 chefs are used to split the week as are the 2 catering staff,so the costing is a bit higher, I understand a room is set aside at Newport for catering staff to while away the eight hours before returning.

In my opinion the only way to make the Chef worthwhile is too have people pay for food on the day, to see if this improves numbers, I still am surprised to see the Chef still with us from September.

Bob

 

[PaulHarding150]

The train will run anyway and the extra coach is probably not extra - so is there a marginal rolling stock cost?

That extra carriage cost money and I'd guess an awful lot of money to fit with a fully working kitchen.

There is a cost to lease a loco hauled set but is that a true additional cost - could it be replaced at not cost with another set?

Why couldn't a regular 175 be used?

The staff - seems like a chef and 2 waiting staff - that's overdoing it! If they are paid by the hour what is the cost of that at minimum wage? About £35 per employee? plus some waiting time costs at CDF.

You really think a Chef who starts work at 4 something in the morning and doesn't get in until 10 at night is on minimum wage?

Less costs to pay those people benefits if they were unemployed
Food costs - probably about £10-15?

I'd say the food costs more than that, they pride themselves on locally sourced stuff and I'd imagine a lot of it is wasted if they have (I think 18 seats) and substantially less passengers.

Just a final thought too, if it can make money, why does this service need a government subsidy and why aren't other train operators introducing a similar service on other +3hr journeys?

 

[merlodlliw]

That extra carriage cost money and I'd guess an awful lot of money to fit with a fully working kitchen.



Why couldn't a regular 175 be used?

It was on WAG2, supposedly for six months,actually 15 months,however a franchise 175 was used for this open access service,ORR was not amused
as this 175 was in fact double funded,it now runs Llandudno/Cardiff up only from Sept as a franchise train, this train Wag2 as we call it, carries few pax between Salop & Newport to Cardiff, WG paid ATW £625K subsidy for the period May/Nov 2011 according to a Ministers statement.



You really think a Chef who starts work at 4 something in the morning and doesn't get in until 10 at night is on minimum wage?

Any Chef wont work on minimum wage.


I'd say the food costs more than that, they pride themselves on locally sourced stuff and I'd imagine a lot of it is wasted if they have (I think 18 seats) and substantially less passengers.

It is rumoured large amounts are wasted,

 

[sparks2000]

That extra carriage cost money and I'd guess an awful lot of money to fit with a fully working kitchen.

The kitchen is already installed - it will cost more to remove it - If someone is in the market for a MK3 from which they need to remove a kitchen then fair enough there is a working capital cost for not selling surplus stock - if on the other hand it would be retired then using it or not using it has the same cost.
The vehicle has no absolute marginal cost because of its already installed kitchen.

Hauling it up and down the line each day will obviously have a fuel & maintenance cost. Not sure what the cost of that would be. Again remembering that the engineering staff are already employed so its just the marginal hours that cost. I don't believe the per hour costs are that relevant as the engineering workforce will have slack to deal with unplanned maintenance.

Why couldn't a regular 175 be used?

If they have a spare? what is the marginal cost of taking a 175 from other duties or increasing its workload?

You really think a Chef who starts work at 4 something in the morning and doesn't get in until 10 at night is on minimum wage?

Minimum wage was a poor example but chefs do not earn much, unless they are the celebrity sort. Catering, even before factoring in the unsociable hours, is a very poorly paid profession when practiced by skilled technicians.

Does a train chef work 4 until 22? - Food must be bought in from Brake brothers or similar. The chef is more a "food warming technician". Having said that the breakfast is clearly cooked but doesn't need much pre prep. Even locally produced stuff is available for catering.

I'd say the food costs more than that, they pride themselves on locally sourced stuff and I'd imagine a lot of it is wasted if they have (I think 18 seats) and substantially less passengers.

Agreed - some work would need to be done on getting the food costs appropriate for the ticket cost and making sure that wastage was controlled for fewer passengers. A frozen steak can stay frozen for many weeks and need not be replenished faster than consumed. In a privatised railway it is exactly this area where good management and buying can get value for money. The franchise does not prescribe the food ingredients (but poor food will drive customers away).

Just a final thought too, if it can make money, why does this service need a government subsidy and why aren't other train operators introducing a similar service on other +3hr journeys?

Agreed but in modern times it seems that everything has to be made to the lowest price and marginal economics are hard to understand. I understand that fundamentally the tax payer should not subsidise a perk of the wealthy (tax payers). However, does a concrete railway shelter with a lifetime of 100 years cost materially more or less than a building with some intrinsic beauty (especially if it is taken into account that many people might enjoy something over those years).

Is the Britain of today less able to afford a standard of living than the Britain of the 1880s? If we don't maintain then our standard become a worse place to live and do business and our race to the bottom begins.

Additionally Wales is a developing economy and it has unique benefits to sell to the business people of Britain. It has also been successful in attacting foreigh investment. Given a working Internet, good transport links, rule of law etc Wales is a damn fine place to live, build a business and support an economy. If Wales sets up as a rural economy with services factored to today's needs then nothing will change (which may or may not be a bad thing - we don't need any more business parks).

 

[jones_bangor]

It is rumoured large amounts are wasted,

Let's not let rumours become facts, it'll be in Wales on Sunday next!

I'd say the food costs more than that, they pride themselves on locally sourced stuff and I'd imagine a lot of it is wasted if they have (I think 18 seats) and substantially less passengers.

Surely the staff are capable of cooking the meals to order!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion the only way to make the Chef worthwhile is too have people pay for food on the day, to see if this improves numbers, I still am surprised to see the Chef still with us from September.

WG probably didn't want to put 2-3 hard working people on the dole.

 

[merlodlliw]

Let's not let rumours become facts, it'll be in Wales on Sunday next!



Surely the staff are capable of cooking the meals to order!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


WG probably didn't want to put 2-3 hard working people on the dole.

Not all are my quotes,with due respect, your dole comment is well, only applicable perhaps to two Chefs,The girls supply us in
standard class par excellence

Bob

 

[David Goddard]

We took the evening Northbound service all the way on Monday 25 June and there was about a dozen in First Class, all enjoying the lovely meal that was served.

We were however the only passengers on the train on arrival at Holyhead.

Joined the Southbound service on Wednesday 27 June between Chester and Shrewsbury and there was about ten in FC on boarding, with one more joining at Crewe. A lovely breakfast, cooked as we liked it and served with a smile. By far the best breakfast of our All Line Rover fortnight.

 

[merlodlliw]

We took the evening Northbound service all the way on Monday 25 June and there was about a dozen in First Class, all enjoying the lovely meal that was served.

We were however the only passengers on the train on arrival at Holyhead.

Joined the Southbound service on Wednesday 27 June between Chester and Shrewsbury and there was about ten in FC on boarding, with one more joining at Crewe. A lovely breakfast, cooked as we liked it and served with a smile. By far the best breakfast of our All Line Rover fortnight.

Those days must be record breaking, on all my travels on this train both ways I have never seen that many in first, arrival at Holyhead is usually empty.

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

Why should taxes subsidise a fancy meal for a few people? I say a few people I've seen that train leave Newport with 2 people in 1st.

There is no way without the government subsidy that chef would be there.

You might think it's quaint and reminds you of the romantic age of rail, I think it's yet more examples of governments p***ing money up the wall.

I'm not sure if you need a 'chef' as such, something microwaved might do the trick but trolleys just aren't enough. On my trip to Brokenhurst to have a ride on the last of the slammers I was travelling late to stay overnight and take my ride to Lymington the next day. Arrival was too late for pubs/resturants to be open so all I had for dinner that night was the chocolate chip cookies from the trolley on the Portsmouth - Cardiff service, meaning I was unpleasantly hungry. A nice plate of fish & chips on the train would have done nicely.

With a rail journey you do not normally have a chance to break your journey at around the time eating establishments are open for a hot evening meal. One of the few advantages of travelling by car is you can stop to eat when you need to (unless there are no food outlets nearby).

That extra carriage cost money and I'd guess an awful lot of money to fit with a fully working kitchen.

It would have had a kichen anyway wouldn't it? ATW may have refurbished it, but I doubt they fitted kichens to ordiary stock. There are quite a few stored mark3 buffet vehicles I think.

Just a final thought too, if it can make money, why does this service need a government subsidy and why aren't other train operators introducing a similar service on other +3hr journeys?

Obviously providing dinner/breakfast costs more than providing snacks and increases the subsidy required, but if it attracts passengers out of their cars and/or prevents passengers abandonding rail and taking up motoring then perhaps it is a subisdy worth paying.

 

[jones_bangor]

Those days must be record breaking, on all my travels on this train both ways I have never seen that many in first, arrival at Holyhead is usually empty.

I would imagine most VT first class seats are also empty on arrival at Holyhead.

Since the super new car park at Bangor was put in, I'd imagine most people from Anglesey would drive to Bangor to catch a train - if you're 40 minutes away from Bangor, go there and you'll get home quicker.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The kitchen is already installed - it will cost more to remove it - If someone is in the market for a MK3 from which they need to remove a kitchen then fair enough there is a working capital cost for not selling surplus stock - if on the other hand it would be retired then using it or not using it has the same cost.
The vehicle has no absolute marginal cost because of its already installed kitchen.

Hauling it up and down the line each day will obviously have a fuel & maintenance cost. Not sure what the cost of that would be. Again remembering that the engineering staff are already employed so its just the marginal hours that cost. I don't believe the per hour costs are that relevant as the engineering workforce will have slack to deal with unplanned maintenance.

The privatised railway does not work like that.
All stock is leased (certainly ATW's Mk3) and there is a going rate per vehicle.
All paths carry access charges, and there is a going rate per vehicle.
Staffing, stocking and operating a Mk3 restaurant car is not a simple operation and is a high cost/low revenue operation.

You surely know there are no spare 175s (or any other decent DMUs).
The train will not "run anyway" without all its costs covered.
The train may possibly last up to the end of the franchise in 2018, but I don't think anybody has committed the full 6 years - depends on the WG budget position.
The comparison should be with the air service from Holyhead to Cardiff - also heavily subsidised by the WG and subject to a high political content.

 

[jones_bangor]

The privatised railway does not work like that.
All stock is leased (certainly ATW's Mk3) and there is a going rate per vehicle.
All paths carry access charges, and there is a going rate per vehicle.
Staffing, stocking and operating a Mk3 restaurant car is not a simple operation and is a high cost/low revenue operation.

You surely know there are no spare 175s (or any other decent DMUs).
The train will not "run anyway" without all its costs covered.
The train may possibly last up to the end of the franchise in 2018, but I don't think anybody has committed the full 6 years - depends on the WG budget position.
The comparison should be with the air service from Holyhead to Cardiff - also heavily subsidised by the WG and subject to a high political content.

Is "high political content" the same as "hot air"?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is "high political content" the same as "hot air"?

Well I nearly got into them both "improving north-south links" but that's a long story.
What made me smile recently was the furure about the state of Cardiff airport and that if they were not careful all that would be left would be the Holyhead service!
The subsidy appears to be propping up both ends.

 

[jones_bangor]

Well I nearly got into them both "improving north-south links" but that's a long story.
What made me smile recently was the furure about the state of Cardiff airport and that if they were not careful all that would be left would be the Holyhead service!
The subsidy appears to be propping up both ends.

Yes, the future for Cardiff IA is not good....

 

[Paule23]

I would imagine most VT first class seats are also empty on arrival at Holyhead.

It's not just this train that has an empty first class or arrival. After leaving the lovely Premier service at Crewe I eventually joined an 11 car Pendolino at Preston and by the time we arrived at Glasgow that wet Tuesday evening at 2239 I had all 4 first class carriages to myself. Still never saw any staff after Carlisle for another drink mind you....

 

[jones_bangor]

It's not just this train that has an empty first class or arrival. After leaving the lovely Premier service at Crewe I eventually joined an 11 car Pendolino at Preston and by the time we arrived at Glasgow that wet Tuesday evening at 2239 I had all 4 first class carriages to myself. Still never saw any staff after Carlisle for another drink mind you....

Whilst Voyager's don't have enough (I suppose coach D has helped...), Pendo's have far too much First Class - I hope First turn at least 1 carriage into standard.

 

[All Line Rover]

It's not just this train that has an empty first class or arrival. After leaving the lovely Premier service at Crewe I eventually joined an 11 car Pendolino at Preston and by the time we arrived at Glasgow that wet Tuesday evening at 2239 I had all 4 first class carriages to myself. Still never saw any staff after Carlisle for another drink mind you....

On certain very late VT services, the First Class catering staff seem to leave the train early. For example, the last time I travelled on the 20:10 from Glasgow to Crewe (which was a Super Voyager on this occasion, but can also be a Pendolino), the First Class host left at Preston.

What's surprising is how expensive the First Class fares are on the service you travelled on. Preston/Lancaster to Glasgow is a minimum of £61.50, a tier 3 fare, even though you say there are few, if any, First Class passengers on-board. Madness!

 

[calc7]

On certain very late VT services, the First Class catering staff seem to leave the train early. For example, the last time I travelled on the 20:10 from Glasgow to Crewe (which was a Super Voyager on this occasion, but can also be a Pendolino), the First Class host left at Preston.

Surely that's because PRE-CRE is scheduled for 44 mins and VT doesn't do a full First Class offer for sub-45 minute journeys?

That said, it would be good if they announced this and pointed passengers to the shop to pick up a coffee and biscuits or whatever.

 

[All Line Rover]

Surely that's because PRE-CRE is scheduled for 44 mins and VT doesn't do a full First Class offer for sub-45 minute journeys?

That said, it would be good if they announced this and pointed passengers to the shop to pick up a coffee and biscuits or whatever.

The shop was closed too. I can't complain. There were five people on-board after Preston - that's including the TM and driver!

EDIT: VT do do the First Class offer for sub-45 minute journeys. Crewe to Wolverhampton and vice versa - a 30 minute journey - includes the full works (ie. sandwich, crisps, drinks, alcohol, cake, even a full breakfast on the 10:01 off Crewe when it is a Pendolino).

 

[calc7]

The shop was closed too. I can't complain. There were five people on-board after Preston - that's including the TM and driver!

EDIT: VT do do the First Class offer for sub-45 minute journeys. Crewe to Wolverhampton and vice versa - a 30 minute journey - includes the full works (ie. sandwich, crisps, drinks, alcohol, cake, even a full breakfast on the 10:01 off Crewe when it is a Pendolino).

Surely that's unofficial, so that they don't look like tight buggers going round checking ticket destinations