ATW Premier Service

[All Line Rover]

Surely that's unofficial, so that they don't look like tight buggers going round checking ticket destinations

Considering the lack of VT Advance fares between Crewe and Wolverhampton and the (in my opinion) very expensive FOS, I don't think it is unreasonable for Virgin to serve such customers. Along the entire Scotland to Birmingham route, Scotland to Carlisle, Penrith to Oxenholme and Crewe to Wolverhampton are the only sections of track where "premium" First Class fares exist.

But I'm going way off-topic now...

 

[merlodlliw]

To Jones Bangor 1192313]As for VT, you have a point, but VT trains are a franchise operation, not a one off open access Welsh Govt train Id imagine those travelling to Holyhead in VT First are ongoing to Dublin.

As for the Bangor car park, well for those travelling from Anglesey, that defeats the train idea. I suppose many seasoned on exs do this


To LNW/GW Joint
The Wag Ex, although this wont happen,as an open access train so could be pulled at any time if WG wanted the annual £2million funds.

It appears the non withdrawal of Wagair & not paying its contract off was due to Cardiff airports shaky position, The key staff at Rhoose need to take a lesson from,
Manchester/Liverpool & Birmingham airports. as Bristol is now the key airport for South Wales.

Bob[/QUOTE]...............

 

[jones_bangor]

To Jones Bangor 1192313]
As for the Bangor car park, well for those travelling from Anglesey, that defeats the train idea. I suppose many seasoned on exs....

I'm not sure what you mean by "exs", but common sense dictates that if you live in Llangefni, you'll drive to Bangor for the train rather than leave 40 minutes earlier to get the same train at Holyhead.

Anyway, the return of Manxhester services and the improved car park will really boost passenger numbers at Bangor, I'd expect a double digit increase on the back of the changes, making it by far the most well used station in North Wales. And the improved West Coast IC service will be a future boost too, happy days!

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure what you mean by "exs", but common sense dictates that if you live in Llangefni, you'll drive to Bangor for the train rather than leave 40 minutes earlier to get the same train at Holyhead.

Anyway, the return of Manxhester services and the improved car park will really boost passenger numbers at Bangor, I'd expect a double digit increase on the back of the changes, making it by far the most well used station in North Wales. And the improved West Coast IC service will be a future boost too, happy days!

Expenses. I take your point about those living nearer Bangor

I expect Wrexham to remain the busiest North Wales station, most certainly after line doubling.

The return of the Manchester services is long overdue.

 

[jones_bangor]

Expenses. I take your point about those living nearer Bangor

I expect Wrexham to remain the busiest North Wales station, most certainly after line doubling.

The return of the Manchester services is long overdue.

EXpenses or not, still paying passengers.

NB Bangor is the single busiest station in North Wales. Happy to provide the figures; below. I accept your point about re-doubling, but bear in mind that journey times of 3.5 hours between Bangor and Cardiff will pulverize the attractiveness of the A470.

10/11 09/10
Bangor (Gwynedd) 633,664 591,978

Wrexham General 613,618 584,176

A steady lead - the new services for the city will no doubt consolidate this.

I do include the "Central" figures for you also, but I would expect an "outright" lead for the city in future years....

Wrexham Central 31,952 23,338

Interestingly, looking back to 2005, the lead for Bangor was much higher. Why the large increase in usage at Wrexham? - Perhaps the introduction of better North - South Wales links was more popular with the people of the town of Wrexham than some people can accept?

05/06 04/05
BANGOR (GWYNEDD) 537,511 534,185
WREXHAM CENTRAL 16,211 17,459
WREXHAM GENERAL 401,242 391,693

 

[merlodlliw]

EXpenses or not, still paying passengers.

NB Bangor is the single busiest station in North Wales. Happy to provide the figures; below. I accept your point about re-doubling, but bear in mind that journey times of 3.5 hours between Bangor and Cardiff will pulverize the attractiveness of the A470.

10/11 09/10
Bangor (Gwynedd) 633,664 591,978

Wrexham General 613,618 584,176

A steady lead - the new services for the city will no doubt consolidate this.

I do include the "Central" figures for you also, but I would expect an "outright" lead for the city in future years....

Wrexham Central 31,952 23,338

Interestingly, looking back to 2005, the lead for Bangor was much higher. Why the large increase in usage at Wrexham? - Perhaps the introduction of better North - South Wales links was more popular with the people of the town of Wrexham than some people can accept?

05/06 04/05
BANGOR (GWYNEDD) 537,511 534,185
WREXHAM CENTRAL 16,211 17,459
WREXHAM GENERAL 401,242 391,693

Wrexham serves several Cities,why the big increase,one train an hour in place of two hours,also the growth is to Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham,ATW confirm this in their bulletins.When Wrexham is redoubled with extra services it will take the lead, as I would expect from the largest town in North Wales.
Today we have lost two services,piddling towns on the coast have lost none.

 

[jones_bangor]

Wrexham serves several Cities,why the big increase,one train an hour in place of two hours,also the growth is to Manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham,ATW confirm this in their bulletins.When Wrexham is redoubled with extra services it will take the lead, as I would expect from the largest town in North Wales.
Today we have lost two services,piddling towns on the coast have lost none.

Time will tell, but as I said in earlier posts, the fantastic new parking facilities at Bangor will be attracting "park and ride" passengers to the city's station, as well as the welcome return of direct Manchester services.

So there's been no growth to Cardiff....???

 

[merlodlliw]

Time will tell, but as I said in earlier posts, the fantastic new parking facilities at Bangor will be attracting "park and ride" passengers to the city's station, as well as the welcome return of direct Manchester services.

So there's been no growth to Cardiff....???

From Wrexham there will be some small growth to Cardiff , but the key expansion is is most certainly East/West, at Wrexham all the spare land has been developed into Morrisons Flagship & a soon to be opened hotel complex,we dont have the spare land for park & Ride.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shrewsbury to Chester going hourly about 7 years ago is the big driver in Wrexham's growth - its the frequency though if the trains went directly to where people wanted i.e Liverpool/Manchester it would be more.

The obsession with relative handfuls going to Cardiff whilst hundreds are put off by lack of direct trains elsewhere is unhealthy. Elven years ago when I first started going to Cardiff on regular basis (from Cambrian) there were often long waits at Shrewsbury now with short ones I notice hardly anymore people doing the journey than before. Prioritising Cardiff as connection destination for the Cambrian has done little for improved usage or to meet latent demand.

 

[jones_bangor]

Shrewsbury to Chester going hourly about 7 years ago is the big driver in Wrexham's growth - its the frequency though if the trains went directly to where people wanted i.e Liverpool/Manchester it would be more.

The obsession with relative handfuls going to Cardiff whilst hundreds are put off by lack of direct trains elsewhere is unhealthy. Elven years ago when I first started going to Cardiff on regular basis (from Cambrian) there were often long waits at Shrewsbury now with short ones I notice hardly anymore people doing the journey than before. Prioritising Cardiff as connection destination for the Cambrian has done little for improved usage or to meet latent demand.

There is no "obsession", I guess most people from Aberystwyth drive to Cardiff - Lampeter - Carmarthen - M4 and you're more or less there, why take a long U shaped journey out of Wales and in again??

WG really should pull their fingers out and re-open Carmarthen-Lampeter-Aber.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have just picked up this quote from the North Wales Rail newsboard dated
22nd August, makes interesting reading,the ATW timetables remain showing a trolley service today 28th August on the down. Below is the comment from their newsboard

"Another oddity which has been pointed out to us and to ATW by several readers is that the new version of the evening loco-hauled Cardiff - Holyhead express, despite having a restaurant car which is advertised for the southbound service, is shown as having only a trolley service in the evening. We have commented before on the long hours apparently expected of the catering staff in the new timings: could it be that this is not an error, but the true situation? Arriva's own Customer Services staff seem to think so."

September 17th will have the answer, but in my book, it all remains shrouded in mystery,if any change was to be made it would be service from the counter,not a Trolley,I wonder why ATW after two weeks of complaint,including my chat to Head of Publicity at ATW have left the trolley logo unchanged. However a quick glace at the NR site tells me it is a Dinner for 1st class,so confusing

Bob

...............................................................................

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW told you they would change the logo. Am I right ?

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW told you they would change the logo. Am I right ?

Thats what the man said,two weeks ago.


Bob

 

[emoaconr]

I do include the "Central" figures for you also, but I would expect an "outright" lead for the city in future years....

Wrexham Central 31,952 23,338

Wrexham Central figures are null and void.
Tickets are rarely ever made out to Wrexham Central, even if a passenger asks for it. The only way to get a ticket with Wrexham Central printed on it these days is to buy one from the Wrexham Central ticket machine; you're unlikely to get a guard sell you a Central ticket. Just the way the figures work.

Additionally, there is a high level of uncollected fares on the Borderlands Line particulary between Gwersyllt and Wrexham Central.

Gwersyllt's figure for example I believe is half the real amount that realistically use the station. I find it far more well used than say Chirk or even Ruabon, yet its figures don't reflect that, simply because fares are not collected.

 

[Tracky]

Figures are based on passenger counts and not ticket sales.

 

[merlodlliw]

Figures are based on passenger counts and not ticket sales.

So how does this work, once a month? take Chester four tocs for example, do counters stand by the entrance checking egress & access,
Or is the count on/off trains at a specific point say 7b for the busiest toc. Seems very subjective

Bob

 

[Manchester77]

Deleted

 

[ainsworth74]

It was probably on a traction training run.

 

[jones_bangor]

Top 20 stations in terms of "Entries and Exits" 10-11 in Wales

Station Name
1. Cardiff Central 11,259,968
2. Cardiff Queen Street 2,411,438
3. Newport (Gwent) 2,291,040
4. Swansea 2,155,906
5. Bridgend 1,604,944
6. Pontypridd 1,034,976
7. Neath 819,546
8. Trefforest 769,646
9. Cardiff Bay 753,148
10. Cathays 701,082
11. Caerphilly 665,328
12. Bangor (Gwynedd) 633,664
13. Barry Island 618,346
14. Wrexham General 613,618
15. Rhyl 609,178
16. Penarth 586,048
17. Treherbert 526,862
18. Aberdare 524,592
19. Barry 503,634
20. Port Talbot Parkway 478,844

Last (no. 218) was Sugar Loaf with a worrying 84.

Any bets on whether the city of Bangor or town of Wrexham could make it into the top 10 in future!?

 

[cymro inside]

Bangor useage much higher than shown due to rail rover useage and taith tickets, at least 20 per cent of passengers from Holyhead to Bangor buy the rover cos its only 50p more than day return,saves rebooking on the bus for town clock,hospital,uni and retail parks.incidentally the useage statistics tell another story too,very few people buy tickets at Bangor for Holyhead so we can safely say that 98 per cent of the Bangor figure applies in one direction only (eastbound) whereas the Wrexham figures apply to 3 routes and dont forget the WAG bus pass free rail journeys in Wrexham and out to Shotton,that boost the Borderlands lines figures by at least 200 journeys per day,it also explains the dramatic increase in useage at Wrexham in short freebies...

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is no "obsession", I guess most people from Aberystwyth drive to Cardiff - Lampeter - Carmarthen - M4 and you're more or less there, why take a long U shaped journey out of Wales and in again??

WG really should pull their fingers out and re-open Carmarthen-Lampeter-Aber.

Re-opening of the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth rail link has been busted, with regional transport consortia saying:

• The service was only a few trains a day
• The service was slower than the X40 bus (via Aberaeron and Lampeter)
• The X40's replacment, the TC1, is going to improve the bus service

However, the TC1 never appeared, instead Arriva started their own commertial service, blocking the route, with the first bus not reaching Aberystwth before 9am on weekdays and the last bus for Carmarthen leaving quite early in the evening (6pm I think).

My opinion is that a new line, using the straight section of the orriginal alignment from Lampeter to Strata Florida with a 90mph linespeed and a new much-straightened (to allow 60-75mph running for most of the route) alignment elsewhere would probably be quite a bit faster than the bus via Lampeter could ever be. Using the original alignment all the way though, as the consortia said, would render reopening pointless because the bus would probably beat the train.

The first step though is to make Carmarthen - Cardiff alot faster to compete with the M4, to do that you need to use the Swansea District Line. Arriva's new commertial Aberystwyth - Cardiff coach service bypasses Swansea, why shouldn't extra trains be introduced to do the same, aside from stock shortage?

 

[merlodlliw]

Bangor useage much higher than shown due to rail rover useage and taith tickets, at least 20 per cent of passengers from Holyhead to Bangor buy the rover cos its only 50p more than day return,saves rebooking on the bus for town clock,hospital,uni and retail parks.incidentally the useage statistics tell another story too,very few people buy tickets at Bangor for Holyhead so we can safely say that 98 per cent of the Bangor figure applies in one direction only (eastbound) whereas the Wrexham figures apply to 3 routes and dont forget the WAG bus pass free rail journeys in Wrexham and out to Shotton,that boost the Borderlands lines figures by at least 200 journeys per day,it also explains the dramatic increase in useage at Wrexham in short freebies...

If its entries & exits it makes no difference what the ticket is,be it rovers or free, as I visit Rhyl often I find the figure of 609K strange.
How are these figures worked out,if they are not on ticket sales? The dramatic use at Wrexham is not on the Bidston line alone,when I visit the station.

 

[Tracky]

On train passenger counts present the most reliable set of data.

 

[merlodlliw]

On train passenger counts present the most reliable set of data.

Depends when the counts take place, for example Rhyl is busy June/August
but not Sept to May, so if the count is taken in July for example,it gives a false reading to say December, I find it difficult to except Rhyl shifts 609K pax, is just a small town for 40 weeks of the year.

How many counts take place in a year, out of interest

Bob

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On train passenger counts present the most reliable set of data.

The entries-exits data is based entirely on point-to-point ticket sales, using the LENNON database.
It disregards anything without an origin and destination, so will ignore rovers, rangers etc.
I'm not sure if it includes on-board sales (depends if these reach LENNON or not).
They have some rules to estimate figures for journeys with travelcards, PTE tickets etc but nothing helpful for Wales.
ATW will have much more accurate figures from the stations, but they aren't going to publish those.

 

[jones_bangor]

Depends when the counts take place, for example Rhyl is busy June/August
but not Sept to May, so if the count is taken in July for example,it gives a false reading to say December, I find it difficult to except Rhyl shifts 609K pax, is just a small town for 40 weeks of the year.

How many counts take place in a year, out of interest

Bob

I think Rhyl, like Bangor, attracts passengers from a wide catchment who drive their car to the station and then jump on the train. So you've got to consider towns like Denbigh, Abergele etc, all of which add up to a large catchment.

I suppose Wrexham is disadvantaged in that respect in that the trains also call at Ruabon, Chirk and Oswestry. The parking facilities at Wrexham also seem limited.

I think I've mentioned before, anecdotally, that a lot of people from the Wrexham area also drive to Crewe.

 

[PHILIPE]

It would be great if they had re-opened the line from Gobowen to Oswestry
Phil

 

[merlodlliw]

I think Rhyl, like Bangor, attracts passengers from a wide catchment who drive their car to the station and then jump on the train. So you've got to consider towns like Denbigh, Abergele etc, all of which add up to a large catchment.

I suppose Wrexham is disadvantaged in that respect in that the trains also call at Ruabon, Chirk and Oswestry. The parking facilities at Wrexham also seem limited.

I think I've mentioned before, anecdotally, that a lot of people from the Wrexham area also drive to Crewe.

Agree Yes they do, as getting into Chester after 0700 is a no go to catch a VT, the Wrexham by pass usually backs up from Chester Post House to Rossett from that time,what would be Wrexham/Chester Station at 0600 say 20 mins, at 0700 can be an hour(distance less than 12 miles),Crewe from Wrexham is longer(27 miles) but quicker by car less than an hour & more VTs

I never noticed Oswestry Also Rhyl is the station for the Vale of Clwyd

 

[jones_bangor]

Agree Yes they do, as getting into Chester after 0700 is a no go to catch a VT, the Wrexham by pass usually backs up from Chester Post House to Rossett from that time,what would be Wrexham/Chester Station at 0600 say 20 mins, at 0700 can be an hour(distance less than 12 miles),Crewe from Wrexham is longer(27 miles) but quicker by car less than an hour & more VTs

I never noticed Oswestry Also Rhyl is the station for the Vale of Clwyd

It does say "Gobowen for Oswestry" on and old sign there!!!

 

[merlodlliw]

It does say "Gobowen for Oswestry" on and old sign there!!!

Indeed it does, If I recall its a GWR sign in wood.

Bob