ATW to 'hold talks' for buying D-Trains

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/old-unsafe-tube-trains-could-9335349

We can almost certainly dismiss any thought of a speculative commercial order looking at these comments. ATW true to form "someone else must pay.

However, Arriva Trains Wales said any discussions were at a very early stage and that any such plans would have to be given government approval.
An Arriva Trains Wales spokesperson said: “We met Vivarail and they offered us a visit to see whether their units would be suitable to add to our fleet to help to improve capacity across our network for our customers.

“However, the responsibility for the funding and specification of rolling stock for our network rests with the Welsh Government and the Department for Transport (DfT).”

A DfT spokesperson said: “The Welsh Government is responsible for setting the requirements for the next Wales and Borders franchise, including any plans for rolling stock.

“The UK government has no plans to introduce old London Underground trains on the Welsh rail network.”

ATW are not a true commercial organisation in the sense that they take risk and speculate to make a profit like most companies they are in fact the reverse using the franchise agreement and rising passenger and revenue due to external structural factors to sit tight and accumulate profit.

 

[RobShipway]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/old-unsafe-tube-trains-could-9335349

We can almost certainly dismiss any thought of a speculative commercial order looking at these comments. ATW true to form "someone else must pay.


ATW are not a true commercial organisation in the sense that they take risk and speculate to make a profit like most companies they are in fact the reverse using the franchise agreement and rising passenger and revenue due to external structural factors to sit tight and accumulate profit.

In an ideal world, ATW should use purpose built rains for their needs but they come expensive and the government has in the past said that it is up to the TOC's to obtain the trains that they require to run their services.

 

[kieron]

ATW are not a true commercial organisation in the sense that they take risk and speculate to make a profit like most companies they are in fact the reverse using the franchise agreement and rising passenger and revenue due to external structural factors to sit tight and accumulate profit.

It's all part and parcel of being a TOC. They don't buy trains. They don't build trains. They don't string up wires or lay down track. They get trains from one place to another and do a bit of property development on the side.

They take plenty of risks when they put together a franchise bid, and take risks when they decide how much to ask the government to pay before they do something, even if this is only running trains to time.

Buying trains off-plan when they'll be lucky to have 3 years' use out of them just isn't the sort of risk any TOC would take.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Edwina Hart the Welsh Govt's Transport Minister has just told the Assembly's Enterprise and Business Committee that The Welsh Govt have no knowledge of any correspondence ATW may have had about London Underground stock.

She has also said that rolling stock for the next franchise must be of the highest standard, but gave no insight or timetable as to what that would involve.

 

[pemma]

Buying trains off-plan when they'll be lucky to have 3 years' use out of them just isn't the sort of risk any TOC would take.

Agreed. With the D-Trains reportedly been 1/3 cheaper to operate than Sprinters and reportedly capable of doing 10 years service opposed to 30+ years, it's possible a franchisee could buy them but only if they'd just been awarded a franchise, not with just over 3 years left to run on an existing franchise.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Edwina Hart the Welsh Govt's Transport Minister has just told the Assembly's Enterprise and Business Committee that The Welsh Govt have no knowledge of any correspondence ATW may have had about London Underground stock.

She has also said that rolling stock for the next franchise must be of the highest standard, but gave no insight or timetable as to what that would involve.

Carefully worded as Vivarail were hawking D78's around the Welsh Govt in January.

James Price her senior civil servant told the Rail user seminar in Cardiff on the 11th May that WG were looking to "own stock for the new franchise".
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Agreed. With the D-Trains reportedly been 1/3 cheaper to operate than Sprinters and reportedly capable of doing 10 years service opposed to 30+ years, it's possible a franchisee could buy them but only if they'd just been awarded a franchise, not with just over 3 years left to run on an existing franchise.

Given the talk of "franchise extension" or "direct award" that's emerging its probably been worth ATW's time looking at the costings.....

 

[Class 170101]

Apologies for the continued off-topic, but I remember reading in a book (Underground Movement, published in 2000 iirc), that the plan for the second batch of 83TS (the ones which barely lasted a decade in service) after their displacement by the 96TS in 1998 was to convert them to run alongside 73TS on the Piccadilly line, perhaps as a dedicated airport train. Evidently, this never happened, probably because of the costs needed to get rid of the single doors.

I'm surprised the 1983 Stock didn't go to the Isle of Wight Line to replace the 1938 Stock
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32-35 years is hardly long service for LU stock - another 15 years would be expected,

The design life is supposedly 35 to 40 years for Tube Stock which is similar to Mainline Stock. Of course some are extended beyond that.

A60/62 lasted 50 years
1972 Bakerloo Line Stock is expected to see its 50th Birthday as a minimum.
1938 Stock is still running on Isle of Wight Line now approaching 80 years old.

 

[Chris125]

I'm surprised the 1983 Stock didn't go to the Isle of Wight Line to replace the 1938 Stock

I believe it was considered but ruled out due to issues with their construction - don't forget that the 38 Stock had only been on the Island a handful of years and had been purchased in excellent condition, having not been used until after the war.

 

[edwin_m]

The 1938 stock is pretty low-tech and probably easier to keep going using the rather basic maintenance facilities available on the IoW.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I believe it was considered but ruled out due to issues with their construction - don't forget that the 38 Stock had only been on the Island a handful of years and had been purchased in excellent condition, having not been used until after the war.

Indeed I can only imagine the effect of the sea spray from running along Ryde pier on the stainless steel bodyshell of the '83 stock!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Carefully worded as Vivarail were hawking D78's around the Welsh Govt in January.

Indeed so. There must be a number of options that will be on the agenda of the Welsh Government for consideration. Vivarail must surely have been aware that their particular option would have been but one of these said options.

 

[Domh245]

Indeed I can only imagine the effect of the sea spray from running along Ryde pier on the stainless steel bodyshell of the '83 stock!

The 83TS (like the D78 stock) have got aluminium bodyshells, so they would have fared quite well. The main reason 83TS probably weren't used was because of their awful reliability. If you have got a small fleet of unreliable trains, you will be faced with large numbers of trains out of service at any point , which is somewhat detrimental to running a train service!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Can we keep this thread to discussing ATW and Vivarail and not a general discussion about tube stock please.
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Indeed so. There must be a number of options that will be on the agenda of the Welsh Government for consideration. Vivarail must surely have been aware that their particular option would have been but one of these said options.

I'm told there's a Hitachi Rolling Stock brochure on the loose in Cardiff as well.

 

[anthony263]

Truth be told I wont say no to having some D trains on certain Valley Lines services such as the Coryton - Radyr & proposed Caerphilly - Cardiff - Pontypridd city line services if it frees up other stock for use elsewhere by ATW such as additional capacity on the Ebbw Vale branch.

However it would need to be short term until electrification.

If Hitachi have been promoting their emu's I wouldn't be surprised if Bombardier and the other builders haven't been trying especially if the WG want new rolling stock for the valleys post electrification.

used stock is not too bad the 315's look pretty good in LO livery with the interios spruced up. Mind you those 3 carriage class 375's would be great if they were used after being fitted with pantographs

 

[Rhydgaled]

Have there been any updates on the possibility of 'D-Trains' coming to ATW? And any indication of whether e-Pacers are being considered as an alternative stop-gap measure until the valleys get their wires?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Have there been any updates on the possibility of 'D-Trains' coming to ATW? And any indication of whether e-Pacers are being considered as an alternative stop-gap measure until the valleys get their wires?

Dead as a dodo WG are not going countable ex Tube stock when no one else is.