ATW to order Pacer Replacement

[metrostars]

Unreliable doesn't describe it.

since christmas i have been on about 15 pacers and 3 of them broke down in some wy.

Wasn't pleased.

 

[Gareth Hale]

Unreliable doesn't describe it.

since christmas i have been on about 15 pacers and 3 of them broke down in some wy.

Wasn't pleased.

That must be a one off, ive rode/seen every single 142 from

142001 - 142058, 142060 - 142096 and only ever witnessed 1 break down.

 

[Techniquest]

Gareth, can you honestly say you've bashed 002, 006, 010, 069, 072, 074, 076, 080 and 085 (I think that's all of the ATW 142s, I'm not sure without checking my books)? That would be a bit of a feat, considering you're in the USA predominately.

On another topic, welcome to the forum one TN. Glad to see there's someone who knows what he's talking about regarding Winston (I'm sick of hearing about that, it's been raised...5 times since November 2005!).

Only time I've had problems with a Pacer was when I went to Cwmbach. The 142 I was in had a problem with the doors nearest to me, in that manual closing was required on most occasions to close them and enable the train to continue. This meant that the conductoress had to keep coming up and closing the doors. Lots of time is wasted doing this, so when the door problem struck, I got up and closed them on most stops. The conductoress thanked me on departure, I was only too happy to help. That's the only incident I've experienced on a Pacer, but it's hardly major.

Pacers are pretty reliable down with ATW, but the frequent stop-start, door open-close operation (average every 1.5 minutes!) is affecting the reliability considerably.

 

[metrostars]

i must say though before that i never had one that broke down and were on time usually.

Must have just been a bad stretch of time.

laverack222 - Double post deleted. In addition, please watch spelling and grammer. Text speak is not allowed. The above is barely even readable!

 

[Gareth Hale]

Gareth, can you honestly say you've bashed 002, 006, 010, 069, 072, 074, 076, 080 and 085 (I think that's all of the ATW 142s, I'm not sure without checking my books)? That would be a bit of a feat, considering you're in the USA predominately.

Hi, I actually have rode/seen them, ive been in the UK for longer than ive been in the USA. Ive been on trips to Wales to see them a few years back.

 

[Guinness]

Ahh so I'm not the only one to have experienced Pacer Door Problems! A couple of years ago I had the misfortune of having to travel on a Pacer from Maryport to Barrow in Furness. All the doors my Car had completely failed and the Conductor had to get the driver to fix the problem, he couldn't. Eventually the FNW Conductor told me to try and open it myself, so I did. I was surprised to find how easy the doors can open. It's that easy that even a vandal at Newton Heath can access the 142 and do as much damage he pleases.....

 

[AlexS]

Most train doors are fairly easy open if necessary unless you have a bad back, possibly something to do with health and safety and why overcrowded trains need to be detrained. Give a plug door or a folding door like on the pacers a good shove and it should pop out.

 

[Gareth Hale]

Yes, Ive had Pacer Door Problem too. Only once though

 

[Guinness]

According to this icWales News Report the replacement could be Turbostars as opposed to a totally new design from other manufactors. Turbostars are much better than Pacers IMO but I doubt that they are less expensive to run. However according to icWales they are cheaper to maintain.

Either way the Pacers are finally going

Clicky

 

[Gareth Hale]

According to this icWales News Report the replacement could be Turbostars as opposed to a totally new design from other manufactors. Turbostars are much better than Pacers IMO but I doubt that they are less expensive to run. However according to icWales they are cheaper to maintain.

Either way the Pacers are finally going

Clicky

Going up north

 

[Techniquest]

170s! In the Cardiff Valleys! Are they MAD?

Clearly someone's not thinking straight. Turbostars would be a good replacement on the mainline runs, NOT in the Valleys. 170s on, say, Carmarthen to Manchester runs would be excellent, although not my cup of tea if equipped with the right facilities it could be a good step forward. This would then displace some 158s to FINALLY get rid of 150s on the mainline runs (I mean, come on, whoever granted permission to send out a 150 on a Cardiff to Holyhead run...Or a Milford Haven to Manchester Oxford Road run! Both happened and both were rather noisy trips!), these 150s then, with some 150s from Northern for the Pacers they could have back, could run the Valleys easily enough. Perfect for the Valleys the 150s are.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next.

EDIT: Reading the article, I found this:

"Transport consultant John Davies said the Pacers were ready for replacement, although some might be kept for easy duties in the Cardiff area."

So they aren't all going really, although they'll be taken off the hard work.

It's also worth noting that to replace them by the end of 2007, an order would have to be placed in the next couple of months. The article also mentions the order is unlikely to happen until the summer, if they choose Bombardier of course. Although they'd be stupid not to if you ask me.

 

[O L Leigh]

On another topic, welcome to the forum one TN. Glad to see there's someone who knows what he's talking about regarding Winston (I'm sick of hearing about that, it's been raised...5 times since November 2005!).

Thanks fella!! It's nice to be here.

Almost every type of train with power operated doors suffers door trouble at some point or another, especially if it's used on frequent stopping suburban services. There's hardly a day goes by when I don't experience some sort of door trouble with a unit, especially the Cl315's that have spent the last 20+ years on inner suburban services. Pacers really aren't any worse.

one TN

 

[TheSlash]

Is there a TOC that doesn't have problems with it's 170's?

 

[Gareth Hale]

170's are now my ENERMY'S

Why are they replacing a decent fleet of trains, just because of the bouncy bounces? If so, its a big waste of money.

The Railway as we know it, will be gone soon. The best trains are going or are gone

HST - 37'S - 47'S - 86'S - 87'S - 158'S and now, the 142's/143's.


edit: WOOOO 400TH Post, but on a topic that makes me sad :cry:

 

[Tom]

142s and 143s aren't exactly 'proper traction'.

Also didn't you read that they may be retained for some minor jobs around Cardiff?

 

[AlexS]

Turbostar's aren't that good with hills - ScotRail's seem to do OK, but Central's units tended to give up and die on the Mid Wales Mainline.

As for any operators without any trouble with their units - I believe Hull Trains were OK :P The ex MML units have had some of their faults ironed out being older units, and I'm not sure what kind of state of play the Anglia ones are in.

I would have thought that if an order for 170s come in, it would be akin to ScotRails suburban 150 replacement units, as opposed to mainline style 170/1s, /6s /3s etc.

 

[Andrew]

170's are now my ENERMY'S

Why are they replacing a decent fleet of trains, just because of the bouncy bounces? If so, its a big waste of money.

The Railway as we know it, will be gone soon. The best trains are going or are gone

HST - 37'S - 47'S - 86'S - 87'S - 158'S and now, the 142's/143's.

So you're arguing to stop all investment in new rolling stock now? All things must come to an end, surely. Do/Did you really think the Pacers will/would last forever?

BTW HSTs are hardly "going". They'll still be in frontline service for (I guess) at least 8 years on GW, probably similar, if not longer on the ECML.

 

[Sprog]

Now, now............

 

[Techniquest]

On another topic, welcome to the forum one TN. Glad to see there's someone who knows what he's talking about regarding Winston (I'm sick of hearing about that, it's been raised...5 times since November 2005!).

Thanks fella!! It's nice to be here.

Almost every type of train with power operated doors suffers door trouble at some point or another, especially if it's used on frequent stopping suburban services. There's hardly a day goes by when I don't experience some sort of door trouble with a unit, especially the Cl315's that have spent the last 20+ years on inner suburban services. Pacers really aren't any worse.

one TN

You're welcome.

Ah yes, the London equivilent of the Pacer, the 315. Good units those, underrated by most. At least Pacers do get some high-speed runs in, what with use with ATW on quite a few Cardiff to Gloucester stoppers pre-December, as well as SuO runs on Cardiff to Hereford runs on most weekends. 142s and 143s have been known to do Cardiff to Pembroke Dock or Milford Haven runs as well, not forgetting Fishguard Harbour, a run from Swansea I did on a 143 once as far as Carmarthen. Nice fast run actually! A 142 has even been on the Heart of Wales according to sources! hock: Wessex give them a bit of a test too, with runs to Cheltenham from WSM fairly frequently.

Gareth, calm down. For one thing, the 170s are not directly replacing the Pacers if they have any sense. It would be quite interesting to see them do Barry Island/Penarth to Aberdare/Merthyr Tydfil/Treherbert runs, what with the extra doors that passengers could use to board and alight quicker than is the case currently. Still, the 170s would have to be using a pretty different seating layout and general facility change to accommodate the high number of passengers that use the services. At least the Aberdare branch wouldn't need longer platforms, that's already been taken care of. Running 170s on the Merthyr and Treherbert line might be more troublesome, some of the platforms are very short. Try stopping a 170 at Gilfach Fargoed on the Rhymney line too...

Regarding HSTs, they've hardly gone yet. Granted, they have from VXC/VWC usage, but the 43s and rolling stock from there is, in some cases, being refurbished at this time to work with FGW. They might have MTU engines, but I'm loving that idea. Besides, emissions rules on new trains means this is the best way forward at the moment. I'd rather have a world to live in, and one that people don't blame trains for when it comes to global warming!

Don't get me wrong, by all means I'm not happy with the general progress being made. Indeed, some areas are seeing retrograde steps in terms of progress, but we've got to let the Pacers retire eventually. They were only built on the cheap, and they've saved many branches and other lines from closure, which we'll always be grateful for, but now it's time for the Pacers to go and rest in preservation, Booths or on easier work.

That's my piece for now.

 

[tramboy]

Remebering that a turbostar is much heavier than a pacer, there really is no current (in service) UK train design that can effectively replace them. I'd love to see them replaced, as they are showing their age now, but with something that European (Continental) Manufacturers do...nothing Chinese mind!

A Desiro based thing would be good. What, Desiro? Yes. Desiro's in Germany and the Netherlands tend to be lighter, smaller units...so would be quite a good replacement. Either that or a modified Talent railcar design from Bombardier. Even something from people most of us haven't heard of (Stadler anyone!!!?!) would be good. As long as it's not Chinese based. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the manufacturing processes in China, or against the country etc etc, it's just that their current contribution to European rail design is negligible, to say the least.

And don't worry. The HST will be around for at least 8-10 years yet. THe DfT have to pull their finger out on a replacement to get going.

Regards

Dave

 

[Tom]

Is Mr. DD trying to say that Arriva should rip off some work that you have been doing on INR?

 

[yorkie]

I was under the impression that the replacement for the pacers was coming from China? Either way a high value/low cost unit is needed which is attractive to passengers. Pacers were always about ‘cheap and nasty’ and do the minimum, I wonder if any will be preserved?

Northern talked about this when bidding for the franchise, then they were told that no funding would be available, and the plan got shelved.

Pacers are very cheap to run so whatever replaces them would also have to be cheap.

Pacers should actually be even cheaper as the leasing companies charge too much for them (the whole ROSCO model really doesn't work well for TOCs unless there is a surplus of rolling stock).

 

[Z12XE]

Didnt the SRA managed to get the price of the Pacers on Northern altered at the last franchise change effective from this year to make them a little more inline with their real value?

If that is the case, The leasco must then be paying Northern to use them.....

 

[B37425]

Turbostars? Will these be able to cope with some of the gradients?
Will there be a point for tables on the Valley Services?

The Valley services require a large amount of seating- 4 car trains would be the answer as most stations have had platfrom extensions. Space for standees with shopping would be good too.

As Arriva continue to have shotages, I gather some Pacers would be kept behind? I see this was demonstarted as there was a Wessex unit passing my school on Thursday.

 

[Z12XE]

170s will probably be the cheapest option, although IMO not the best (and thats not through some dislike of anything less than 25 years old like some..)
I suppose they could re-gear them to allow Max Speed of 75mph and faster acceleration.

The 170 now is proved to provide a fairly decent train, although its rather silly bodyshell doesnt help, its too narrow and quite long compared with other units.

If they could take the 150/2 and bring that upto modern standard then they'd be onto a winner.

 

[O L Leigh]

Hi Gang!!

Unfortunately, cheapness of operation doesn't seem to enter into the equation very much these days.

Whatever eventually replaces the Pacers will almost certainly not be another railbus. If it's going to be any time soon, it will probably be based heavily on existing DMU/EMU design, though development in these areas in recent times has focused more on XC units rather than local ones.

I wonder if a sensible solution would be a DMU based on the Electrostar bodyshell rather than the Cl170. Something like a diesel version of the Cl376 with through corridors and geared for 75mph running might be a good compromise. Compatibility with existing Sprinter classes would be required to ensure flexibility, so a similar drivetrain and BSI autocouplers would be a must.

I'd like to think that there would be some new designs and innovation here, but I don't seriously expect any. The demand for local/rural/suburban DMU's is currently low (even assuming every TOC currently running Pacers orders it), so paying for the development of a totally new design would make them prohibitively expensive. Therefore, it's going to be a development of something that is in current use now.

one TN

 

[southy39]

I was under the impression that the replacement for the pacers was coming from China? Either way a high value/low cost unit is needed which is attractive to passengers. Pacers were always about ‘cheap and nasty’ and do the minimum, I wonder if any will be preserved?

Northern talked about this when bidding for the franchise, then they were told that no funding would be available, and the plan got shelved.

Pacers are very cheap to run so whatever replaces them would also have to be cheap.

Pacers should actually be even cheaper as the leasing companies charge too much for them (the whole ROSCO model really doesn't work well for TOCs unless there is a surplus of rolling stock).

yeah but was the welsh government dept not loooking at investing in the stock like METRO with northern do with the 321/9 and 158/9 units... dedicated units that they lease from like porterbrook but allow norther to operate specified services with...

 

[Sprog]

...Something like a diesel version of the Cl376 with through corridors and geared for 75mph running might be a good compromise. Compatibility with existing Sprinter classes would be required to ensure flexibility, so a similar drivetrain and BSI autocouplers would be a must...one TN

Crikes! Great minds think alike! I was reading this last night and i was gonna reply saying a similar thing this morning!

That does sound ideal, except, that the '375' - type ends with Corridor Connections should be used as opposed to the full width cabs, allowing units to be doubled up at peaks. I think compatability with other units would be possible, considering the current '170s' can work in multiple with any 15x unit. Basically, a highbrid design is needed, using the 'mechaniscs of a Turbostar and the boodyshell of a 376. 2-car or 3-car units?? If they have 'metro' style interiors, then 2-car should be adiquite IMO. The current 100mph top speed of a Turbostar wouldnt be nessesary, so it should be regeared for a maximum of...75?, 80?? allowing it to cope with Stop/Start better.

As for the pacers, they should be cascaded to other routes. ATW should keep some and others should go to routes and branches with other TOCs.

 

[Z12XE]

As for the pacers, they should be cascaded to other routes. ATW should keep some and others should go to routes and branches with other TOCs.

But surely the only justification ATW have for getting rid of them is their poor relilability, so if they can just put them on different routes, questions will be asked at the DfT about it?

 

[Sprog]

That shouldnt be the main justification. 175s where, and often still are cr*p, but it doesnt mean that they will be scrapped!

Pacers are only unreliable becase they are used on inapropriate routes - this is specially apparent with Wessex Trains anyway (ie, Gloucester to Bristol Temple Meads or BTW - Cardiff Central). Pacers are ideal for short branches. I think some of ATW valley branches just fall out of this catagory. Ie, CF - Rhymney or Merthyr. Routes like Cardiff Central - Barry Island, as i did on saturday, are just about acceptable! The other solution is to improve track on the route, as Pacers DO NOT get on with Joined track and sharp curves.

The Parry people Mover is being trialled at Stourbridge. In reality, what would be wrong with a Pacer on this route?? Even if the PPM is purchased, eventually, the route is goig to expand as it is promoted and require more capacity than a single car can provide!........this is where a pacers place is!

The DfT should not be so short sighted. We already have stock shoratges in the UK. The Valleys need a new train, allowing the Pacers to be handed on to increase capacity across the Network! Sending them to Booth's will be a step backwards!