ATW Track Access Application

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headshot119

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The ATW track access application for changes to the timetable starting on the 17th of September 2012 is now available online.

The summary of the changes

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Arriva Trains Wales will be operating the north-south Premier service in a new formation, Cl.67 + 4x Mk3 coaches + DVT. This formation allows the train to reverse at Chester and so be routed via Wrexham. 

The 0532 Holyhead-Cardiff will run via Wrexham and the 0511 Holyhead-Birmingham will run via Crewe. The path of the 0740 Crewe-Shrewsbury is taken by the 0532 Holyhead-Cardiff and is replaced by an 0638 departure from Crewe.

An additional 0700 Shrewsbury-Wrexham General and an additional 0747 Wrexham General-Shrewsbury will run, allowing passengers from stations between Wrexham and Shrewsbury to connect at Shrewsbury into the 0532 Holyhead-Cardiff. In the evening, the 1615 Cardiff-Holyhead via Crewe is replaced by a 1621 Cardiff-Chester, also via Crewe. The 1821 Cardiff-Holyhead will be worked by the loco-hauled set but the routeing, via Wrexham, is unchanged.

On the north Wales coast, several diagramming alterations have caused some changes to the service.

The full list of changes is as follows:
0700 Addl Shrewsbury-Wrexham General
0747 Addl Wrexham General-Shrewsbury
1615 Cardiff-Holyhead via Crewe will now depart Cardiff at 1621 and terminate at Chester
0650 Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno will now terminate at Llandudno Jn
0510 Cardiff Central-Holyhead will now be diverted to Llandudno
0750 Manchester Piccadilly-Llandudno will now be diverted to Bangor
0709 Birmingham International-Holyhead will now be diverted to Llandudno
0850 Manchester Piccadilly-Llandudno will now be diverted to Holyhead
1002 Addl Chester-Llandudno
1050 Manchester Piccadilly-Llandudno will now be diverted to Bangor
0751 Holyhead-Cardiff Central will now start from Llandudno at 0830
0845 Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly will now start from Llandudno Jn at 0854
0908 Llandudno-Llandudno Jn is cancelled
0928 Llandudno Jn-Llandudno is cancelled
1008 Llandudno-Llandudno Jn is cancelled
1028 Llandudno Jn-Llandudno is cancelled
1308 Llandudno-Llandudno Jn is cancelled
1328 Llandudno Jn-Llandudno is cancelled
1033 Holyhead-Cardiff Central will now start from Bangor at 1102
1344 Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly will now start from Bangor at 1331

These changes more suitably reflect customers' requirements and also make better use of Arriva
Interesting but it does seem that the Llandudno - Manchesters will perform a quicker turn around at Llandudno by not doing a run to Llandudno Junction and back. Which will destroy the rather regular service you get on the coast at the moment.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Haven't checked all the implications but this provides some Manchester-Bangor/Holyhead and Birmingham-Llandudno variations on the clock-face pattern.
The remarks about the Crewe-Shrewsbury path don't seem to make sense, unless it's me.
Nothing new Chester-Manchester I see.
 

headshot119

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Haven't checked all the implications but this provides some Manchester-Bangor/Holyhead and Birmingham-Llandudno variations on the clock-face pattern.
The remarks about the Crewe-Shrewsbury path don't seem to make sense, unless it's me.
Nothing new Chester-Manchester I see.
The comment on the Crewe - Shrewsbury path is confusing, but I believe is meant to mean that the 0532 from Holyhead - Birmingham will now call all stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, unlike the WAG which didn't.
 

Michael.Y

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Does anyone know what will happen to the mk2s currently employed on the wag workings if the Septembet setup is mk3s throughout
I've heard rumours of additional services, but I'm not willing to divulge anything until it's announced officially by ATW. Plus there are some on here who refuse to believe ATW will pay the higher track access charges associated with LHS.

In the meantime, the current Premier Service will be lengthened to up to 6 coaches with no First Class (a la rugex) on days when there are football matches at the Millennium Stadium, with the WAG1 and WAG2 return timings swapped in the evening so that the 1615 will be a unit and the 1818 will be 67+Mk2s.
 

merlodlliw

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The comment on the Crewe - Shrewsbury path is confusing, but I believe is meant to mean that the 0532 from Holyhead - Birmingham will now call all stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury, unlike the WAG which didn't.
I understand this diverted train will run via Crewe to arrive Salop at its usual time,but will not be a stopper between Crewe & Salop,path given to DVT
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've heard rumours of additional services, but I'm not willing to divulge anything until it's announced officially by ATW. Plus there are some on here who refuse to believe ATW will pay the higher track access charges associated with LHS.

In the meantime, the current Premier Service will be lengthened to up to 6 coaches with no First Class (a la rugex) on days when there are football matches at the Millennium Stadium, with the WAG1 and WAG2 return timings swapped in the evening so that the 1615 will be a unit and the 1818 will be 67+Mk2s.
A lot of fog is being put about for the 2012/13 timetable, if ATW are to pay for an extra LHS service, hire of stock and all associated costs, this will be a sea change for ATW who have always refused to pay for such extra services.but the new franchise is less than five years away,none of my contacts at ATW have mentioned this, in fact an e mail from one of them which I made available said " no major changes in 2012/13" but this may be a bit of spin.
Consultation timetable for 2012/13 is supposed to out late August/Sept,then all will be revealed
Interesting weekday Manchester service Bangor/Holyhead confirms West/East growth.

Finally the wording "Premier Service" is back, whereas WG have been spinning enhanced service, so does this mean the Chef is still on board ,
I would also expect the BHX services to be brought back on the Salop /Wrexham line, as ATW have found an extra DMU to run between these two Monday to Friday to connect with the Birmingham at Salop & prevent the chaos at Chester station last Bank Holiday Monday when over 100 were stuck for two hours without a service

Bob
 
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tbtc

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this provides some Manchester-Bangor/Holyhead and Birmingham-Llandudno variations on the clock-face pattern
This is the interesting part, which is both good news and bad news. Good news in that it restores the daytime link from Manchester to Bangor etc but bad news in that it spoils some of the simplicity of the clockface timetable.

Is this all just to save a unit (cutting back some Holyhead services to just Bangor, cutting some Llandudno services back to just the junction, cutting some of the "shuttles" from Llandudno to the junction)?
 

anthony263

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A lot of fog is being put about for the 2012/13 timetable, if ATW are to pay for an extra LHS service, hire of stock and all associated costs, this will be a sea change for ATW who have always refused to pay for such extra services.but the new franchise is less than five years away,none of my contacts at ATW have mentioned this, in fact an e mail from one of them which I made available said " no major changes in 2012/13" but this may be a bit of spin.
Consultation timetable for 2012/13 is supposed to out late August/Sept,then all will be revealed
Bob
Thank you and I hope you will give us all a heads up when the consultation timetable is released.
 

merlodlliw

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Thank you and I hope you will give us all a heads up when the consultation timetable is released.
Indeed I will,remember All the County Councils,Rugs & others get the consultation timetable, sadly ATW choose not to issue consultation documents for May & September, but wont get away withholding the 2012/13 consultation has this is already being asked for with CC to the Minister.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is the interesting part, which is both good news and bad news. Good news in that it restores the daytime link from Manchester to Bangor etc but bad news in that it spoils some of the simplicity of the clockface timetable.

Is this all just to save a unit (cutting back some Holyhead services to just Bangor, cutting some Llandudno services back to just the junction, cutting some of the "shuttles" from Llandudno to the junction)?
You are probably correct, there will be a cut in service in this application somewhere. as occurred in the May timetable. I dont refer to WAG2 either
 
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jones_bangor

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Better links between Holyhead, Bangor and Manchester will be welcome news to many, including myself. Never understood why all the trains had to go to / start from Llandudno.
 

Rhydgaled

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It looks as if Llandudno will have a less-frequent service, unless I missed something. Maybe that's your cut merlodlliw.

Also, as regards LHCS, the track-access might be higher but if they use the mark2s don't they own them, so only leasing costs for the locos?
 

merlodlliw

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It looks as if Llandudno will have a less-frequent service, unless I missed something. Maybe that's your cut merlodlliw.

Also, as regards LHCS, the track-access might be higher but if they use the mark2s don't they own them, so only leasing costs for the locos?
Yes that's my cut, I will need to spend a good few hours looking at what's hidden if the May timetable is anything to go by.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Better links between Holyhead, Bangor and Manchester will be welcome news to many, including myself. Never understood why all the trains had to go to / start from Llandudno.
Agree. Looks like Llandudno is well & truly demoted
 

tbtc

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It looks as if Llandudno will have a less-frequent service, unless I missed something. Maybe that's your cut merlodlliw
Looks like Llandudno is well & truly demoted
The maths in the recent thread about "spare" platforms at Llandudno showed that over the year there were only about fifteen passengers using each service at Llandudno (on average). Taken some busy weekend services in the summer away and that presumably means that the daytime service for most of the year sees even fewer.

Also, as regards LHCS, the track-access might be higher but if they use the mark2s don't they own them, so only leasing costs for the locos?
They are still leasing the DMUs too though so it doesn't save anything
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The passenger on line timetable for ATW September/December is now available,first thoughts on the Chester/Shrewsbury line show two further Bank Holiday cuts in service making four BHX, all without any consultation,and what looks like a Birmingham service replaced with a Cardiff.
http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/
Bob
The 0515 HHD-BHI vanishes into outer space between Chester (dep 0702) and Shrewsbury (arr 0823).
It doesn't seem to call at Crewe, even though it must travel that way, or anywhere else.
Somewhere it will need to kill 20 pointless minutes or so to let the WAG train overtake it.

ATW is routeing Chester-Manchester services via Northwich on Sundays before 1400 from 21 October, with a bus via Warrington, because of electrification work on the Chat Moss route.
 

Michael.Y

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The passenger on line timetable for ATW September/December is now available,first thoughts on the Chester/Shrewsbury line show two further Bank Holiday cuts in service making four BHX, all without any consultation,and what looks like a Birmingham service replaced with a Cardiff.

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/


Bob
How many bank holidays are there between September and December?

These changes are piecemeal - if what we've been led to believe, the major changes, i.e. the ones where consultation will matter most, will occur in December.
 

merlodlliw

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How many bank holidays are there between September and December?

These changes are piecemeal - if what we've been led to believe, the major changes, i.e. the ones where consultation will matter most, will occur in December.
Michael, any cut in service is bad, even for one day, having looked at the timetable on line again,
there are now to be six BHX, three down & three up on the Chester/Salop line in & out of Wrexham from Sept, and Wrexham is the busiest Station in North East Wales with the largest population.
Leaving 100 pax stranded at Chester last Bank Hol Mon for two hours in the evening should have rung alarm bells at ATW.

Bob
 

PHILIPE

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The 0515 HHD-BHI vanishes into outer space between Chester (dep 0702) and Shrewsbury (arr 0823).
It doesn't seem to call at Crewe, even though it must travel that way, or anywhere else.
Somewhere it will need to kill 20 pointless minutes or so to let the WAG train overtake it.

ATW is routeing Chester-Manchester services via Northwich on Sundays before 1400 from 21 October, with a bus via Warrington, because of electrification work on the Chat Moss route.
If you go to Journey Planner and ask for Holyhead to Telford Central from 0500 for example, you are directed to 05 33 Holyhead to Cardiff and change at Chester to another Holyhead to Birmingham Internationl shown to run via and call at stations Wrexham etc., By the time it arrives at Telford it seems to be the 05 11 ex Holyhead. The times from Wrexham seem to be the new portion from Wrexham following the WAG and combining at Shrewsbury with the 05 11.
 

Squaddie

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Leaving 100 pax stranded at Chester last Bank Hol Mon for two hours in the evening should have rung alarm bells at ATW.
But did that actually happen?

You originally posted that as a hypothetical outcome of service cuts, not an actual occurrence:
Worst of all no franchise train will leave Chester between 1928 & 2121 serving Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen. The 2121 service is from Holyhead & is usually standing only on arrival at Chester. No alternative such as bus is offered to cater for the passengers, many will be stuck for two hours on Chester Station, which by 2021 could number between 100 & 200 on a busy bank holiday.
 

Michael.Y

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Devil's advocate, but the timetables, journey planners et. al. clearly state BHX, so maybe pax shouldn't expect services on bank holidays and plan their journeys accordingly?

I went to Narberth on May Day bank holiday. Half the shops were shut. I didn't blame the shops. I blamed myself for expecting a normal day's trading.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If you go to Journey Planner and ask for Holyhead to Telford Central from 0500 for example, you are directed to 05 33 Holyhead to Cardiff and change at Chester to another Holyhead to Birmingham Internationl shown to run via and call at stations Wrexham etc., By the time it arrives at Telford it seems to be the 05 11 ex Holyhead. The times from Wrexham seem to be the new portion from Wrexham following the WAG and combining at Shrewsbury with the 05 11.
The WAG is followed from Wrexham by a 0747 service which has come up from Salop, so it can't initially be the same train as the 0515 ex HHD.
Looks like they merge at Shrewsbury.
The oddity (perhaps a mistake in the printed timetable) is that it does not call at Crewe - it would have time to do that and at Whitchurch and Wem to form a decent peak service for Shropshire commuters.
 

SprinterMan

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I don't understand how the WAG train via Wrexham can take the path of a Crewe-Shrewsbury train. It makes no sense. Can someone enlighten me? Do they mean the 0515 to BHI will call at stations via Crewe? I'm gonna email ATW about that.
Also, the mothballing of Llandudno is concerning, although it's nice to see it getting some long distance services again, they are a worthy replacement to the VT London service.
Adam :D
 
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Rhydgaled

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They are still leasing the DMUs too though so it doesn't save anything
True. My point was that if additional stock is to be introduced in any form (aside from the fact that LHCS is the only additional stock available right now) then the costs of introducing their mark2s could compare better with the costs of using additional units than LHCS normally does.
 

merlodlliw

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Which "one day" is that? According to my diary, there are no Bank Holidays between the end of August and Xmas Day. Therefore BHX doesn't apply for the life of this timetable.
That is not the point, why did ATW put them in the timetable then, it is to put them over as a block into the Dec 12/13 timetable, there is no other sane reason for this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But did that actually happen?

You originally posted that as a hypothetical outcome of service cuts, not an actual occurrence:
It did occur as expected & reported in the local press. Complaints were also made to ATW. I had a colleague confirm this who was returning from Manchester.
 
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