Austria (and perhaps other European countries?) return to full lockdown

[Jamiescott1]

Deleted post.
Incorrect information

 

[hst43102]

The response of certain countries to Covid is also a powerful counter argument to those who argue that codified constitutions are in any way beneficial as a way of protecting individual liberty. The USA, Australia, South Africa and Austria have written constitutions. All have behaved fairly diabolically towards their citizens over the last two years.

How many countries have not behaved "fairly diabolically" toward their citizens, though? In many ways those countries have had a much lighter approach than other countries such as China or Japan.

 

[takno]

Not in quite the same way as the U.K. In fact France has existed as a republic for less time than the USA! The Netherlands is a better counter example as, like the U.K., it’s political system was essentially a feudal style monarchy which has incrementally evolved into a modern democracy.

The response of certain countries to Covid is also a powerful counter argument to those who argue that codified constitutions are in any way beneficial as a way of protecting individual liberty. The USA, Australia, South Africa and Austria have written constitutions. All have behaved fairly diabolically towards their citizens over the last two years.

I think this is splitting quite a few hairs. The behaviour of pretty much all western democracies has been surprising, unprincipled and shameful. In essence this stems from everybody's willingness to treat Covid as a 2-year-long state of emergency, even when it self-evidently just isn't. Since all countries and constitutions have some form of provision for states of emergency they have all been just as incapable of standing up to an attack based on that fiction.

 

[43066]

I think this is splitting quite a few hairs. The behaviour of pretty much all western democracies has been surprising, unprincipled and shameful. In essence this stems from everybody's willingness to treat Covid as a 2-year-long state of emergency, even when it self-evidently just isn't. Since all countries and constitutions have some form of provision for states of emergency they have all been just as incapable of standing up to an attack based on that fiction.

Perhaps.

I’ve also been extremely disappointed with the reaction of western governments, particularly ours. Albeit there probably aren’t many countries where I would have rather lived over the last two years - Sweden’s response was probably the most measured in Europe by a long way.

Our government has certainly been excessively authoritarian, but still a lot better than many other places in Europe where I get the sense things like mask wearing have been enforced a lot more heavy handedly.

 

[brad465]

Austria has just legalised assisted suicide for those who are terminally ill or have a permanent debilitating condition. It amazes me that a country can care about quality of life and enable an earlier end to relieve suffering in this way, but fail to recognise the loss in quality of life draconian measures against covid has had as if life extension matters above all else:

New law allowing assisted suicide takes effect in Austria

The new law allows chronically or terminally ill adults to make provisions for an assisted suicide.

www.bbc.co.uk

A law allowing assisted suicide has taken effect in Austria.

From Saturday, adults who are terminally ill or have a permanent, debilitating condition, can opt to make provisions for an assisted death.

Parliament approved the new law in December, following a constitutional court ruling on the issue.

The practice will be tightly regulated, with each case assessed by two doctors - one of whom would have to be a palliative medicine expert.

Officials say the government has also allocated funds to develop palliative care to ensure no one chooses to die when other options are available.

Assisted suicide, in which somebody is given the means to end their own life, is legal in neighbouring Switzerland.

It's also been decriminalised in several European countries, including Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Active assistance to suicide will remain outlawed in Austria, and the new rules explicitly exclude minors or those with mental health conditions.

Adults who want to end their lives must produce a diagnosis and have confirmation that they are able to make their own decisions.

After gaining approval from two doctors, patients must wait for 12 weeks to reflect on their decision - or two weeks if they have a terminal illness.

If they still want to go ahead after this waiting period, they can then get lethal drugs at a pharmacy after giving notification to a lawyer or notary.

To prevent abuse, the names of pharmacies that sell these drugs will only be disclosed to lawyers and notaries who receive these notifications, and will not be advertised publicly.

Until now, under Austrian law, anyone who induced or helped someone to kill themselves faced up to five years in prison.

An absolute ban on assisted dying was lifted by a federal court last year, which ruled that it "violated the right of self-determination".

But the same punishment will remain in place for those who kill another person at their "serious and emphatic request".

Before the new rules were approved by parliament this year, some political opponents argued that it placed too many hurdles in the way of those seeking assisted dying.

Others argued that too few restrictions were to be put in place, saying that a psychiatric evaluation was not enough to assess patients' decision-making ability.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would never have guessed that of all the countries in Europe, the Netherlands of all places is taking the most authoritarian approach, even extending to directing you what sort of food to eat.

Most people in Britain are entirely ignorant of what Europe is actually like. it is usually portrayed as a semi-utopian bastion of culture, freedom and practical governance. In reality much of (Western) Europe is in thrall to technocracy and the elevation of subject matter experts as oligarchs and I am entirely unsurprised to learn that England remains one of a few holdouts against the bio-cringe this winter.

(Not a jab at you btw!)

 

[island]

That is appalling. If someone falls seriously ill from lack of water when travelling on a train, I hope action is taken against the Macron government.

The ban takes effect from today; there were some soundbites on French news this morning from (masked) senior SNCF types saying staff will be "encouraged to show discretion" on longer journeys.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The ban takes effect from today; there were some soundbites on French news this morning from (masked) senior SNCF types saying staff will be "encouraged to show discretion" on longer journeys.

Does this mean the chances of getting in to the toilet for it's intended use will be much reduced? People sitting in there with picnic, snacks or just for a quick drink! And these will be passengers who are fully vaccinated as France bans the unvaccinated from long-distance trains. You really have to wonder just what this measure is intended to achieve!

 

[Cdd89]

staff will be "encouraged to show discretion" on longer journeys.

I find it wholly unacceptable that this legal requirement can apparently be breached with the “discretion” of staff. (Hopefully it won’t last too long anyway as the concessions at the stations will kick up a fuss…)

 

[island]

Emmanuel Macron in an interview this week says he has a goal of pissing off the unvaccinated.

Macron declares his Covid strategy is to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated

French president stokes divisions as parliament debates tighter requirements for mandatory health pass

www.theguardian.com

 

[nw1]

To

Emmanuel Macron in an interview this week says he has a goal of pissing off the unvaccinated.

Macron declares his Covid strategy is to ‘piss off’ the unvaccinated

French president stokes divisions as parliament debates tighter requirements for mandatory health pass

www.theguardian.com

(To make it clear: I have no strong views on vaccines and have taken the first two jabs, but...)

He appears to be going as far as to call the unvaccinated 'not citizens'. That is beyond the pale. Arrogant, sanctimonious, authoritarian so-and-so. Maybe it's not actually Le Pen who's the real far-right leader in France. Instead perhaps it's Macron, particularly when you also consider his bans on taking photos of the police and general bad attitude towards protest. Certainly challenging Trump as the most authoritarian leader of a G7 country in remotely recent times.

 

[island]

I think he's got one and a half eyes on the election in April. None of his rivals can realistically challenge that without coming out as anti-vaccine, and that's unlikely to win enough votes.

 

[kristiang85]

To

(To make it clear: I have no strong views on vaccines and have taken the first two jabs, but...)

He appears to be going as far as to call the unvaccinated 'not citizens'. That is beyond the pale. Arrogant, sanctimonious, authoritarian so-and-so. Maybe it's not actually Le Pen who's the real far-right leader in France. Instead perhaps it's Macron, particularly when you also consider his bans on taking photos of the police and general bad attitude towards protest. Certainly challenging Trump as the most authoritarian leader of a G7 country in remotely recent times.

Don't forget Trudeau saying last week most of the unvaccinated were misogynists and racists...

 

[brad465]

I think he's got one and a half eyes on the election in April. None of his rivals can realistically challenge that without coming out as anti-vaccine, and that's unlikely to win enough votes.

Depends, on it's own there won't be enough votes, but if Macron annoyed those not to take a vaccine to the point that they engage in the what the French are renowned for doing, protesting/striking/rioting, then this will impact the lives of others and look very bad internationally, which would then impact other voters.

 

[nw1]

I think he's got one and a half eyes on the election in April. None of his rivals can realistically challenge that without coming out as anti-vaccine, and that's unlikely to win enough votes.

They can certainly challenge use of derogatory, even anti-democratic, language such as 'non-citizens'. Implying the unvaccinated are 'non-citizens' is not exactly a good way of attracting support in a democracy.

You can be anti-vaccine-passport, and anti-curtailing-the-liberty-of-the-unvaccinated, without being anti-vaccine. If the other candidates take that middle of the road line (encouraging take up of the vaccine without punishing the unvaccinated), I suspect that would attract quite a few votes. For a variety of reasons - not just this - Macron comes across as an authoritarian control freak and France really needs to ditch him. Not sure of the best alternative from perhaps a bad lot but besides Le Pen, any of the others would probably do better.

 

[kristiang85]

Italy seems to be going a step further on the effective lockdown of the unvaccinated:

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1478820676253462529

Italy's government approves by decree *compulsory* #Covid vaccinations for residents older than 50.
Vaccine passports will be necessary also to enter shops, banks, and hairdressers/barbers
The only accessible shops without the so called “Green Pass” (which means double vaccination or LTF which costs 10 euro or more and cannot be self-administered in Italy) will be supermarkets and pharmacies.
Moreover, those who don’t hold the so called “Super Green Pass” (which can be obtained only with at least 2 vaccine doses valid for 6 months or a 3rd dose - no paid LFTs allowed) will not be able to enter
- Restaurants, Bars, Pubs
- Concerts/Cinema
- Pools/Gyms
- Stadiums
The so-called “Super Green Pass” (which can be obtained only with at least 2 vaccine doses valid for 6 months or a 3rd dose - no paid LFTs allowed) will be also necessary for *everyone* to:
- Travel on public transportation
- Work in healthcare sector, police and schools
All the other workers in Italy, *of any age*, will instead need the so-called “Green Pass”, which means double vaccination or LTF which costs 10 euro or more and cannot be self-administered in Italy.

 

[nw1]

Italy seems to be going a step further on the effective lockdown of the unvaccinated:

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1478820676253462529

Made this point already but does the natural immunity that will arise from the winter's Omicron wave not count for anything? Banning travel on public transport, for instance, sounds incredibly draconian.

I think vaccination is a good idea, but I really dislike this sort of authoritarianism preventing people doing the most basic everyday activities.

 

[MikeWM]

Made this point already but does the natural immunity that will arise from the winter's Omicron wave not count for anything? Banning travel on public transport, for instance, sounds incredibly draconian.

I think vaccination is a good idea, but I really dislike this sort of authoritarianism preventing people doing the most basic everyday activities.

Because in many cases this is nothing to do with preventing the spread of a virus, but rather 'punishing' those people who haven't done what the government has told them to do. You only have to look at the recent comments by Macron and Trudeau to see that.

And, as a convenient side-effect, giving the government the ability to require obtaining and showing government permission to do all manner of things you could previously do freely without government interference. Which - as I've said many times - appears to be the end-goal of all this.

 

[Bantamzen]

Because in many cases this is nothing to do with preventing the spread of a virus, but rather 'punishing' those people who haven't done what the government has told them to do. You only have to look at the recent comments by Macron and Trudeau to see that.

And, as a convenient side-effect, giving the government the ability to require obtaining and showing government permission to do all manner of things you could previously do freely without government interference. Which - as I've said many times - appears to be the end-goal of all this.

And donning the tin hat for a moment, once a population is acclimatised to having mandatory vaccines to be allowed to function "normally", what's to stop the conspiracy theorists dreaded microchip?

You know, rather than having an app as a passport to go shopping, a chip in your hand that can be scanned at the door. Science fiction is full of this kind of stuff. Just saying like..

 

[MikeWM]

And donning the tin hat for a moment, once a population is acclimatised to having mandatory vaccines to be allowed to function "normally", what's to stop the conspiracy theorists dreaded microchip?

You know, rather than having an app as a passport to go shopping, a chip in your hand that can be scanned at the door. Science fiction is full of this kind of stuff. Just saying like..

No tin hat required - already happening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ip-implant-stores-COVID-vaccine-passport.html

Swedish startup Epicenter unveils rice-sized microchip implant that stores your COVID vaccine passport under your skin and is read with technology used to take contactless payments

Epicenter, a Stockholm-based startup, unveiled a new way of carrying around a COVID vaccine passport – in a microchip implanted under your skin.

'Implants are very versatile technology that can be used for many different things, and right now it is very convenient to have COVID passport always accessible on your implant, he said in a statement.

 

[Bantamzen]

No tin hat required - already happening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ip-implant-stores-COVID-vaccine-passport.html

Oh s&@*!

Time to move to some remote island!

 

[MikeWM]

Just seen it reported that Austria is making wearing FFP2 masks *outside* mandatory.

They've really gone entirely mad, it seems.

 

[ExRes]

Oh s&@*!

Time to move to some remote island!

Indeed, hopefully one that doesn't allow the existence of the Daily Mail

 

[brad465]

This view won't be shared with everyone, but there comes a point where fun/freedom is drained out of society to the point that death might actually be preferable. I'm personally not afraid of covid as someone of low risk and 3x jabbed, but there is a long list of things I am afraid of that are resulting and might result from our covid attitude.

 

[bramling]

This view won't be shared with everyone, but there comes a point where fun/freedom is drained out of society to the point that death might actually be preferable. I'm personally not afraid of covid as someone of low risk and 3x jabbed, but there is a long list of things I am afraid of that are resulting and might result from our covid attitude.

It’s interesting to hear more than a few people now very glad of such people as Steve Baker and Sir Graham Brady. It is this which seems to be stopping us copying some of these European countries, who have really lost the plot now.

Yes it really does bother me what we’re likely to be left with at the end of all this. The hope is that Covid continues to move more towards resembling a cold. The trouble is, it seems to have already have done that, but this isn’t stopping people who have an answer to everything continuing to jump on it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Just seen it reported that Austria is making wearing FFP2 masks *outside* mandatory.

They've really gone entirely mad, it seems.

I would assume there is some solid science behind that decision (not). Might as well go the whole hog and make if FFP3, or those with the hose pipe from the face over the shoulder to a pack in the lower back.

No tin hat required - already happening.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ip-implant-stores-COVID-vaccine-passport.html

And many people will queue up outside, in winter weather, for five hours, in order to get one fitted ASAP: because it is the responsible thing to do, everyone must do their bit.

 

[brad465]

Does anyone know how the Dutch lockdown is getting on? They introduced it while cases were going down in the hope of stopping Omicron, but looking at their latest data that doesn't seem to be working:

Netherlands COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Netherlands Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

 

[kevin_roche]

I have just booked flights to Seville in March so fingers crossed that it will be OK.

 

[nw1]

I would have thought so by March. Omicron will be well past its peak then just about everywhere I suspect; if there are not show-stopping restrictions now, I doubt there will be by March.

 

[philosopher]

Does anyone know how the Dutch lockdown is getting on? They introduced it while cases were going down in the hope of stopping Omicron, but looking at their latest data that doesn't seem to be working:

Netherlands COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Netherlands Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

View attachment 108356

Looks even worse today for the Netherlands in terms of cases and their increase does not look much different than countries that did not introduce lockdowns. Perhaps this finally is the evidence that lockdowns don’t work, or least they don’t work for Omicron.