Availability of accessible rail replacement coaches

[kingqueen]

I really feel for coach providers during this Corona outbreak. A very difficult and frightening time, uncertainty and loss. For what it's worth, I wouldn't object to Government consideration of / action upon accessibility of rail replacement vehicles, being postponed until late this year, for that reason.

I'm also scared, to be honest. Not of catching the virus myself, though it would likely have more effect than on a well person; but of the likely impact of care home quarantine, staff unavailability due to quarantine or illness, overstretched NHS etc. I think disabled people are amongst the most vulnerable to such.

I hadn't gathered that you are a public service vehicle operator, by the way.

 

[Flange Squeal]

A further PSVAR exemption has been granted, lasting for the rest of this year. It remains the case that operators need to apply for exemption certificates, and non-compliant vehicles should only be sourced as a last resort.

Minister of State for Transport Chris Heaton-Harris has granted a further temporary exemption to the requirement for PSVAR compliance on rail replacement services. It will commence on 1 May and expire on 31 December.

To obtain a special authorisation valid from 1 May, operators must fill in a form supplied by either a train operating company or a rail replacement service provider. That should be returned directly to the Rail Delivery Group (RDG) by 1700hrs on Tuesday 28 April.

RDG will pass on all collated applications to the Department for Transport (DfT). DfT will then review the forms and “make decisions on issuing special authorisation certificates accordingly.”

Applications received after 28 April are not guaranteed to be processed by 1 May. The current exemption expires on 30 April.

Rail replacement PSVAR compliance still expected eventually

In a letter sent to RDG Chief Executive Paul Plummer, Mr Heaton-Harris has reaffirmed his previous view that he expects overall PSVAR compliance on rail replacement work to be achieved in the future. To that end, he has informed RDG that he requires a written update on the situation every three months describing the progress made.

Mr Heaton-Harris accepts that “the supply of compliant vehicles is not within the [rail] industry’s gift.” He also acknowledges that the issue is one that the rail industry cannot resolve alone. Mr Heaton-Harris gives no indication of how the coach and bus sector can be assisted or encouraged to increase the supply of compliant vehicles.

The Minister additionally noted that earlier proposals made by RDG regarding the issue of PSVAR compliance on rail replacement were not ambitious enough.

routeone is attempting to discover what those proposals constituted. In his letter, Mr Heaton Harris notes that while the RDG proposals “are potentially a step in the right direction, we must be more ambitious about how and by when PSVAR compliance can be achieved”.

Further discussions on compliance expected by Minister

By granting a third exemption for rail replacement services, Mr Heaton Harris adds that he expects RDG “to hold further multi-modal, multi-organisational discussions and explore and devise a more ambitious timeline than that currently proposed in respect of planned and unplanned disruption.”

As part of the latest exemption, it remains the case that rail replacement providers must source and use PSVAR-compliant vehicles wherever possible. Use of non-compliant coaches and buses is only permitted when “all other compliant options have been exhausted”. Alternative transport is to be provided for disabled passengers in those cases.

This is an evolving story. Further updates will be added when available.

Source: https://www.route-one.net/news/third-rail-replacement-psvar-exemption-granted/

 

[HH]

A further PSVAR exemption has been granted, lasting for the rest of this year.

As we forecast back at the beginning of the year; although I don't suppose there is much call for RR at the moment...

 

[jopsuk]

Where there is a need for Rail Replacement right now, given the low demand generally for buses and coaches it should be inexcusable to be using anything other compliant vehicles.

 

[Flange Squeal]

As we forecast back at the beginning of the year; although I don't suppose there is much call for RR at the moment...

There's still plenty going on every week around the SWR network.

Where there is a need for Rail Replacement right now, given the low demand generally for buses and coaches it should be inexcusable to be using anything other compliant vehicles.

Certainly seems to be the case round here now. I guess the only potential issues could arise where the route exceeds 50km and the subsequent sourcing of PSVAR coaches or low-floor buses with tachos. There are obviously operators with them, but some primarily coaching operators have VOR'd much of their fleets and put staff of furlough to save money. Not sure how many lines have had such lengthy closures though, so it probably hasn't been an issue in all honesty.

 

[Llanigraham]

Where there is a need for Rail Replacement right now, given the low demand generally for buses and coaches it should be inexcusable to be using anything other compliant vehicles.

And what happens if there are none available in a particular area?

 

[Robertj21a]

Where there is a need for Rail Replacement right now, given the low demand generally for buses and coaches it should be inexcusable to be using anything other compliant vehicles.

How many more buses/coaches are having to be supplied in order to meet the need for 2m separatìon ?

 

[RJ]

Some areas are certainly doubling or tripling up vehicles on trips where resources allow.

 

[Broken70]

Re the above - Unfortuantly in most areas resources don't allow and social distancing on any form of bus/coach will not be possible as it wont at Rail stations, Bus stations, Airports or anywhere the public will be in force.

Regarding the RR bus scene coach companies who we're looking at getting more PSVAR vehicles lucky enough to be in a stable condition wont be now due to coronavirus. The industry has been hit hard. thousands have been laid off even with the furlough system because coach operators just cannot afford it with no income and no income potentially until March 2021 at best. A company i'm involved with had ordered its first wheelchair accessible vehicle but now has cancelled that. At £120.000 this just isn't doable right now and while cheaper are available your still looking at £40,000. I fear the way forwards for rail replacement will be retired service buses with seatbelts fitted and these will undoubtedly be less reliable than coaches at current but with no wheelchair access etc. They will also have less comfortable seating and less seats in general but you'll be able to stand so they'll still get 50 on an average single deck. The next problem is all the current service bus coverage is required for work and who's going to have buses sat about waiting for the railways to phone up to earn £250 a go an amount that doesn't cover the driver been sat all day doing nothing waiting or in some cases fuel costs. Nobody. The system needs to change or the railways will find itself in a little mess sooner rather than later regarding rail replacement.

 

[richw]

earn £250

this varies presumably between TOC. Where I am in the toc pays the greater amount of £65 an hour from base to base or £1.60 a mile.

 

[Llandudno]

The requirement for ‘disabled friendly’ rail replacement buses/coaches is admirable but shouldn’t the focus on making our current stations more accessible for every day 364 days a year usage.

Alfreton station has no disabled or pushchair access to the Up platform, users have to travel north to Chesterfield for southbound journeys.

Seems odd that Derbyshire County Council spent millions on reopening Ilkeston station with suitable disabled access (but too short a platform for all trains to use it!) but has not improved Alfreton.

 

[221129]

Seems odd that Derbyshire County Council spent millions on reopening Ilkeston station with suitable disabled access (but too short a platform for all trains to use it!) but has not improved Alfreton.

Not that odd at all. All new openings need to be accessible by law. Not the case for existing stations.

 

[RJ]

The next problem is all the current service bus coverage is required for work and who's going to have buses sat about waiting for the railways to phone up to earn £250 a go an amount that doesn't cover the driver been sat all day doing nothing waiting or in some cases fuel costs. Nobody. The system needs to change or the railways will find itself in a little mess sooner rather than later regarding rail replacement.

Sorry, which rail operator is paying £250 to hire a bus for the whole day?

 

[richw]

Sorry, which rail operator is paying £250 to hire a bus for the whole day?

None down here pay that low

 

[Broken70]

Sorry, which rail operator is paying £250 to hire a bus for the whole day?

That was the price Transpennine Express payed recently for 2 trips covering, the price is up to the first 4 hours (Stood down spot on 4hrs to avoid the additional charges). They were Piccadilly-Airport and Airport-Sheffield (All stns).

 

[richw]

That was the price Transpennine Express payed recently for 2 trips covering, the price is up to the first 4 hours (Stood down spot on 4hrs to avoid the additional charges). They were Piccadilly-Airport and Airport-Sheffield (All stns).

so not £250 all day then.

 

[30907]

so not £250 all day then.

And very similar to £65ph quoted upthread

 

[richw]

And very similar to £65ph quoted upthread

Which also has a minimum 3 or 4 hour payment, and is paid from depot back to depot not just station to station

 

[Bamberbridge]

richw comment re OR £1.60 per mile on its own seems very low - Fuel alone will be approaching £1 per mile. Should the post read £65 per hour PLUS £1.60 per mile if the vehicle is actually used rather than just on standby? Presumably if the vehicle duty is from say 0600hrs to 2400hrs the ferrying of drivers from / to the vehicle at say 1500hrs is at the operators cost or if the vehicle returns to depot at say 1500 hrs for driver changeover is the second part regarded as a separate job depot to depot? Presumably vehicle capacity has an effect on charges eg. 49 seater v 70 seat double deck and PSVAR compliant v Not PSVAR compliant. As a retired Bus / Coach operator I realise there will be many issues affecting the charges eg. Advance arrangement or Last Minute emergency, Domestic Driver Hours or EU Drivers Hours regulations etc. I recall in BET/Tilling days it was just an Hourly Rate Depot to Depot plus a Rate per mile but life was a lot less complicated back then.

 

[richw]

richw comment re OR £1.60 per mile on its own seems very low - Fuel alone will be approaching £1 per mile. Should the post read £65 per hour PLUS £1.60 per mile if the vehicle is actually used rather than just on standby? Presumably if the vehicle duty is from say 0600hrs to 2400hrs the ferrying of drivers from / to the vehicle at say 1500hrs is at the operators cost or if the vehicle returns to depot at say 1500 hrs for driver changeover is the second part regarded as a separate job depot to depot? Presumably vehicle capacity has an effect on charges eg. 49 seater v 70 seat double deck and PSVAR compliant v Not PSVAR compliant. As a retired Bus / Coach operator I realise there will be many issues affecting the charges eg. Advance arrangement or Last Minute emergency, Domestic Driver Hours or EU Drivers Hours regulations etc. I recall in BET/Tilling days it was just an Hourly Rate Depot to Depot plus a Rate per mile but life was a lot less complicated back then.

It’s a flat rate regardless of coach. Transit type Minibuses are paid lower If they are pulled in. The 1.60 mile rate is rarely the higher amount, literally only when a long motorway run is the majority of the trip.

 

[RT4038]

richw comment re OR £1.60 per mile on its own seems very low - Fuel alone will be approaching £1 per mile. Should the post read £65 per hour PLUS £1.60 per mile if the vehicle is actually used rather than just on standby? Presumably if the vehicle duty is from say 0600hrs to 2400hrs the ferrying of drivers from / to the vehicle at say 1500hrs is at the operators cost or if the vehicle returns to depot at say 1500 hrs for driver changeover is the second part regarded as a separate job depot to depot? Presumably vehicle capacity has an effect on charges eg. 49 seater v 70 seat double deck and PSVAR compliant v Not PSVAR compliant. As a retired Bus / Coach operator I realise there will be many issues affecting the charges eg. Advance arrangement or Last Minute emergency, Domestic Driver Hours or EU Drivers Hours regulations etc. I recall in BET/Tilling days it was just an Hourly Rate Depot to Depot plus a Rate per mile but life was a lot less complicated back then.

There won't be many vehicles costing £1 per mile for fuel. If they are, you'd better start fixing the leaks! Depending how much the company is paying for fuel and the type of vehicle but 50-60p I should think.

 

[richw]

There won't be many vehicles costing £1 per mile for fuel. If they are, you'd better start fixing the leaks! Depending how much the company is paying for fuel and the type of vehicle but 50-60p I should think.

Around 8mpg from the stuff I’m familiar with. Gallon no more than a fiver At pump at present, Less fuel card discount, reclaim VAT, safe to say 50p a mile maximum at present for fuel. Add in other running costs and probably £1 a mile is about right

 

[unlevel42]

The last Piccadilly RR non stop journey to Sheffield that I made was via M67, A57 EASTBOUND, Woodhead Pass A628, M1 to Sheffield via A57 WESTBOUND along the Parkway. Journey time 2hrs and 35 minutes.

In addition, despite pleas to be dropped off at Meadowhall Interchange Bus Station(which was already being used by RR coaches from his own company working for the same company) we were answered by silence.
We failed to arrive at Sheffield the designated bus stop at the interchange,having driven passed the entrance as he tried to get into the Taxi drop-off where we abandoned him to the mercy of the blocked-in taxi drivers.

 

[Llandudno]

The last Piccadilly RR non stop journey to Sheffield that I made was via M67, A57 EASTBOUND, Woodhead Pass A628, M1 to Sheffield via A57 WESTBOUND along the Parkway. Journey time 2hrs and 35 minutes.

In addition, despite pleas to be dropped off at Meadowhall Interchange Bus Station(which was already being used by RR coaches from his own company working for the same company) we were answered by silence.
We failed to arrive at Sheffield the designated bus stop at the interchange,having driven passed the entrance as he tried to get into the Taxi drop-off where we abandoned him to the mercy of the blocked-in taxi drivers.

A £5 note offered to the rail replacement bus driver normally does the trick for a drop off en-route!

 

[philthetube]

It would be interesting to know just how many PSVAR coaches there are in the country and also what the maximum numbers are which could be made available for rail work.

I would be surprised if these figures exist however.

 

[richw]

It would be interesting to know just how many PSVAR coaches there are in the country and also what the maximum numbers are which could be made available for rail work.

I would be surprised if these figures exist however.

I found a rough answer about 6 months ago, but the source I found had excluded vehicles new for national express and for megabus. It was somewhere between 250 and 300 from memory.
Second hand levantes and megabus vehicles have filtered into other operators and wouldn’t be included in that number neither

 

[Llandudno]

It would be interesting to know just how many PSVAR coaches there are in the country and also what the maximum numbers are which could be made available for rail work.

I would be surprised if these figures exist however.

Not so sure many operators (after the pandemic is over) will have vehicles of such a high spec lying around on the off chance of picking up some rail replacement work

Llew Jones for the Conwy Valley line excepted of course!

 

[philthetube]

I found a rough answer about 6 months ago, but the source I found had excluded vehicles new for national express and for megabus. It was somewhere between 250 and 300 from memory.
Second hand levantes and megabus vehicles have filtered into other operators and wouldn’t be included in that number neither

Thanks, What Interests me would be the total number of PSVAR coaches available for hire after service work is taken into consideration compared with the number of coaches used on a typical weekend, one without coronavirus

 

[richw]

Thanks, What Interests me would be the total number of PSVAR coaches available for hire after service work is taken into consideration compared with the number of coaches used on a typical weekend, one without coronavirus

I believe that is why the source I found removed natex and megabus.
Considering the Plymouth to Tiverton blockade last year required circa 75 coaches a day, we’d have been looking at 25% of all psvar coaches in the U.k!

 

[kingqueen]

It would be interesting to know just how many PSVAR coaches there are in the country and also what the maximum numbers are which could be made available for rail work.

I would be surprised if these figures exist however.

Looking across the UK and not only at its members, CPT estimated that circa 2,200 accessible coaches have been built for the UK market, of which around 1,000 are still regularly used on express and other scheduled services. Of the remaining 1,200, its understanding is that around 600 might still be fully accessible though the ability to accommodate all types of wheelchairs and scooters varies, whilst the remaining 600 vehicles have had their lifts removed to increase coach capacity (in some cases from 49 seats to 70 seats) and to reduce maintenance costs. CPT commented that the availability for rail replacement work of those coaches that are compliant will depend on geographic location and use on other services that may or may not require PSVAR compliance.

ORR consultation on accessibility of rail replacement vehicles, December 2019, section 1.22
(an estimate of course)