Availability of accessible rail replacement coaches

[kingqueen]

The problem is with the coaches... and the problem with coaches is that, although new coaches for express/ scheduled services have been required to be compliant since 2005, there is no requirement for tour/ PH coaches to be compliant. And therein lies the problem... coaches on express/ scheduled services are in the minority {albeit a large one}

I agree 100%, I think you've nailed it on the head.

One thing does puzzle me though, and that is what is happening to these coaches once they have come off of Nat Ex work {remember a coach will only be used on frontline service for 5-7 yrs} the oldest are now 13 yrs old and yet none seems to be coming onto the 2nd hand market and having a 2nd life... so where are they going?

I'd like to know that too. Also: I'm wondering why National Express only use coaches for 5-7 years, when they evidently have much useful life after that? I'm guessing reliability, and appeal to passengers?

and even if the law was changed tomorrow it would be 15 years or so before non compliant vehicles would be unusable... after all will the government like the alternative of a large compensation bill if it rendered the whole of the coach parc unusable overnight?

There's no chance of the current government introducing such requirements, neither for immediate change nor long-term. They are strongly against increased regulatory burden on pretty much everything - "red tape challenge" and all that - and even if they weren't, their legislative agenda is fully occupied with other matters for the foreseeable future, especially Brexit. So, sadly, I don't see this changing or improving any time soon.

 

[Deafdoggie]

One thing does puzzle me though, and that is what is happening to these coaches once they have come off of Nat Ex work {remember a coach will only be used on frontline service for 5-7 yrs} the oldest are now 13 yrs old and yet none seems to be coming onto the 2nd hand market and having a 2nd life... so where are they going?

Unbelievably, many are "converted" to non-wheelchair accessible coaches. As Tour coaches and private hire don't need these things, these features are often removed before resale onto second-hand market. I know I know! But if operators don't need it, they aren't go to pay for it. If the equipment is removed and reused, it makes it cheaper for all. The extra cost of the equipment is paid for by the Nat Ex contract, also factored into contract cost is the cost of removal, The equipment is then sold to manufacturers where possible for reuse either as a whole or as parts. The coach is then sold as tour/private-hire coach. Occasional ones, do of course, retain their equipment, and most coach companies have a couple in the fleet, but the exemption of tour/private hire coaches from needing the equipment is what is driving this situation forward. Try finding a second-hand wheelchair accessible coach for sale, they aren't plentiful, as the market isn't there.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's not the best solution for me, for all sorts of reasons.
1) it's considerably more expensive, and I have no money
2) Employing a driver is non-viable
3) It reduces spontaneity
4) My disability is such that it is exacerbated considerably by car transport, in fact it's dangerous and has previously resulted in a stroke
5) I feel really rough on long car journeys.
6) I love public transport journeys, and particularly train journeys. They are a main pleasure in my life.
7) I don't want to be segregated
8) I want to have the same opportunities, as much as practicable, as anybody else
9) It's also (theoretically) the intent behind the law, that disabled people should have such.

OK, what about your own personal tax-payer funded bus then? With a driver on 24-hour standby? I suspect that would be cheaper and easier to provide than accessible coaches on every rail-replacement service just in case you decided to use a particular one on a particular day.

 

[kingqueen]

Unbelievably, many are "converted" to non-wheelchair accessible coaches.

Wow. Interesting, thank you.

If the equipment is removed and reused, it makes it cheaper for all. ...The equipment is then sold to manufacturers where possible for reuse either as a whole or as parts.

There's a market for such? For whole mechanisms, from what you've said I should imagine the market for second hand mechanisms to retrofit inaccessible coaches. So are they used on otherwise new coaches? And as parts: for spares and repairs I assume?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Some are just disabled. Think of it like the XC Super Voyager fleet, they could tilt, but it is all turned off. Some coaches could carry a wheelchair, but they aren't needed to, so to keep maintenance cheaper the equipment is isolated, and not used. It is just business really, no good paying for what you don't need

 

[kingqueen]

OK, what about your own personal tax-payer funded bus then? With a driver on 24-hour standby?

There's no need to be facetious.
It would be cheaper and easier to not bother making any public transport services accessible ever, but we still do it. Thankfully.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It would be cheaper and easier to not bother making any public transport services ever.

Given local authority spending cuts, it is pretty much happening! The idea was great, to give old people and disabled people free bus transport, but now it is free, there aren't the buses to travel on! I am sure most would rather pay half fare and have a bus, than pay nothing, but not have a bus! But I digress...

 

[Dai Corner]

There's no need to be facetious.
It would be cheaper and easier to not bother making any public transport services accessible ever, but we still do it. Thankfully.

I want being facetious, I was trying to come up with a solution that addressed all your objections to having a car. I think it does, apart perhaps from the segregation; but you could always invite some fellow passengers to ride in your bus with you.

 

[aylesbury]

This morning on the BBC a discussion was held about wheelchair access on rail and Angela Rippon got extremely angry at the responses by the Rail Delivery Group man. It is interesting to read how the problems are being transferred onto replacement buses. Our local companies are very good about this and help when required ,but having used replacement bus services I note that not every driver is actually aware that he has to help someone who needs assistance to board the bus. Many of these drivers are part time and only drive a few times per month and also drive for some dodgy companies. Given the number of coaches required it is easy to run out of reputable companies especially if it is an urgent need for them. This is a problem that needs attention now and if operators are locking out wheelchair lifts they need to be advised it is against the law especially with the 2020 disability act coming closer to implemation.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Surely the simple way to solve the problem of accessibility on rail replacement is to hire a company who provide "ring and ride" or "flexibus" services to have standby vehicles at the ends/centre of the rail blockade and have them run on demand.

 

[kingqueen]

Surely the simple way to solve the problem of accessibility on rail replacement is to hire a company who provide "ring and ride" or "flexibus" services to have standby vehicles at the ends/centre of the rail blockade and have them run on demand.

Would certainly suit me.

 

[Flying Snail]

Surely the simple way to solve the problem of accessibility on rail replacement is to hire a company who provide "ring and ride" or "flexibus" services to have standby vehicles at the ends/centre of the rail blockade and have them run on demand.

The problem as usual with any idea to hire a company doing another service is that they are already doing another service. Those flexibus operations are no more likely to have spare buses and drivers than other service operators. You can put whatever angle you like on it but the fact remains that only the private hire sector has the availability and flexibility to cover most RRB requirements, particularly short notice ones.

There is no way that the OP is going to get what he wants; all RRBs to be accessible, the vehicles are simply not available to do this and won't be for the foreseeable.

 

[mde]

Ah, I see. It was before I was a wheelchair. I have not traveled on a coach in my wheelchair. (To be 100% accurate: I once caught Stagecoach's Number 50 bus from Portree to Kyle in my wheelchair, having booked in advance, which turned out to be a coach, and that was the only time I have been on a coach in my wheelchair. I haven't travelled on any Megabus / Citylink / National Express coach in my wheelchair, nor have I travelled without pre-booking.)

I've done Citylink a few times in my wheels (and quite a few times without) - the turn up and go from a bus station generally 'just works', but, I'd be more apprehensive trying it from a stop or somewhere like a services since there's an element of unpredictability.

The 'magic seats' video you linked to elsewhere are the type they have on the Caetano Levante's used on those services and they tend to work fairly well and can be adapted quickly - IME it tends to take longer for the lift to be sorted than the seats. It's not a horrible method of transport by any means if it's done correctly.

That said, rail is much more comfortable!

 

[Dai Corner]

The problem as usual with any idea to hire a company doing another service is that they are already doing another service. Those flexibus operations are no more likely to have spare buses and drivers than other service operators. You can put whatever angle you like on it but the fact remains that only the private hire sector has the availability and flexibility to cover most RRB requirements, particularly short notice ones.

There is no way that the OP is going to get what he wants; all RRBs to be accessible, the vehicles are simply not available to do this and won't be for the foreseeable.

Better to have one of these flexibuses dedicated to each potential user than deploying them all over the country on the off chance they'll be needed.

 

[thaitransit]

My this seems rather backwards. I would have thought by now that wheelchair accessible buses would universal throughout the UK by now. Especially considering that we got the idea from the UK in the 1990s to use low floor buses and wheelchair lifts on long distance coaches.

In Australia the railways are required to provide wheelchair accessible buses on train replacement services as they are considered public transport services. In the event that wheelchair accessible buses are not available then a wheelchair accessable taxi is called in and will take the wheelchair passenger to there final destination not just around the trackwork. Yes this means a 500km plus taxi trip is possible.

However in Australia almost all public bus and coach services now have wheelchair accessible buses on them. Even in fairly remote areas without wheelchair facilities locally.

 

[Bantamzen]

My this seems rather backwards. I would have thought by now that wheelchair accessible buses would universal throughout the UK by now. Especially considering that we got the idea from the UK in the 1990s to use low floor buses and wheelchair lifts on long distance coaches.

In Australia the railways are required to provide wheelchair accessible buses on train replacement services as they are considered public transport services. In the event that wheelchair accessible buses are not available then a wheelchair accessable taxi is called in and will take the wheelchair passenger to there final destination not just around the trackwork. Yes this means a 500km plus taxi trip is possible.

However in Australia almost all public bus and coach services now have wheelchair accessible buses on them. Even in fairly remote areas without wheelchair facilities locally.

The thing is that in the UK private hire coaches are still not required to be accessible, just those operating scheduled services as discussed above. So many coach companies who only supply to the private hire, holiday tour, school bus contracts haven't needed to make all their fleets accessible. And it is often these companies that are far more likely to available vehicles and drivers to work many RRBs booked by TOCs, hence the issue. In some parts of the UK bus operators may have spare accessible vehicles, especially where they operate seasonal services which might make it easier for some TOCs to book them than others. Certainly in my corner of England it is rare to see an RRB that isn't a non-accessible coach.

 

[thaitransit]

Ok. I know with train replacement bus service contracts in Victoria Australia. When they companies apply for the tender wheelchair accessible buses is part of the contract terms for both trackwork and emergency buses. As these contacts are often for a number of years. Rather than a last minute random selection of local charter bus operaters.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ok. I know with train replacement bus service contracts in Victoria Australia. When they companies apply for the tender wheelchair accessible buses is part of the contract terms for both trackwork and emergency buses. As these contacts are often for a number of years. Rather than a last minute random selection of local charter bus operaters.

That would be joined-up thinking, we don't do joined-up anything when it comes to public transport in the UK!!

 

[Dai Corner]

The thing is that in the UK private hire coaches are still not required to be accessible, just those operating scheduled services as discussed above. So many coach companies who only supply to the private hire, holiday tour, school bus contracts haven't needed to make all their fleets accessible. And it is often these companies that are far more likely to available vehicles and drivers to work many RRBs booked by TOCs, hence the issue. In some parts of the UK bus operators may have spare accessible vehicles, especially where they operate seasonal services which might make it easier for some TOCs to book them than others. Certainly in my corner of England it is rare to see an RRB that isn't a non-accessible coach.

A current example is the Newport-Bristol Parkway run. It's a mixture of (non-accessible) coaches from independent firms and (accessible) First buses normally used on their University services but surplus as many of the students have gone home for the summer.

I haven't had the patience to observe long enough to see what happens if a wheelchair user wants to travel and a coach is scheduled. There always seem to be several buses waiting so perhaps one of those would be used (though that would mess up the diagrams).

Alternatively, there are always plenty of accessible taxis at the station and GWR staff on hand to arrange a hire.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A current example is the Newport-Bristol Parkway run. It's a mixture of (non-accessible) coaches from independent firms and (accessible) First buses normally used on their University services but surplus as many of the students have gone home for the summer.

I haven't had the patience to observe long enough to see what happens if a wheelchair user wants to travel and a coach is scheduled. There always seem to be several buses waiting so perhaps one of those would be used (though that would mess up the diagrams).

Alternatively, there are always plenty of accessible taxis at the station and GWR staff on hand to arrange a hire.

At least on previous tunnel closures, more than one bus / coach has been needed for each timetabled service, so it tended to be one coach and one bus used for the same "service". Not sure if that has ever been planned, or if it is the case this time around, but certainly has seemed to happen on multiple occasions in the past.

 

[Dai Corner]

At least on previous tunnel closures, more than one bus / coach has been needed for each timetabled service, so it tended to be one coach and one bus used for the same "service". Not sure if that has ever been planned, or if it is the case this time around, but certainly has seemed to happen on multiple occasions in the past.

I was at Newport in the middle of the day and didn't use the RR service but there didn't seem to be enough passengers to fill a minibus let alone two full-size vehicles. I'm pretty sure at least one "service" was just a coach.

 

[Robertj21a]

At least on previous tunnel closures, more than one bus / coach has been needed for each timetabled service, so it tended to be one coach and one bus used for the same "service". Not sure if that has ever been planned, or if it is the case this time around, but certainly has seemed to happen on multiple occasions in the past.

I think it has been *planned* on previous occasions to deliberately allocate a PSVAR-compliant bus with every coach departure. There's no reason why that shouldn't generally be the case.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was at Newport in the middle of the day and didn't use the RR service but there didn't seem to be enough passengers to fill a minibus let alone two full-size vehicles. I'm pretty sure at least one "service" was just a coach.

To be fair, my experiences with rail replacement services when the tunnel is closed as been either on a Friday evening or on weekend where presumably more people will be travelling than in the middle of the day on a weekday. So can't really speak for when services are quieter.

 

[Smylers]

... on a bus service you must follow a pre-set route, on RRB as long as you get to the place, any route will do.

On most public bus services the defined stops are so close together that there's only one plausible route they could take between any pair of stops; effectively the stops define the route.

But where that isn't the case, I've encountered variation between drivers. For instance, around a decade ago I often caught a bus out of Leeds bus station with its next stop on Boar Lane; about half the days, the bus would leave the bus station and turn left at the roundabout (along Eastgate) and half turn right (down St Peter's Street). Both ways worked; they varied in distance, traffic lights, and queues, so one wasn't clearly better than t'other.

For practical purposes (where passengers could board and alight the bus, and and what times) the overall ‘route’ of the buses was the same in both cases; it was a scheduled bus service, operating to a published timetable.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think it has been *planned* on previous occasions to deliberately allocate a PSVAR-compliant bus with every coach departure. There's no reason why that shouldn't generally be the case.

Or to look at I think another way, run all services with PSVAR-compliant buses and supplement with non-compliant coaches whee traffic demands. Makes sense.

 

[Sybic26]

Ok. I know with train replacement bus service contracts in Victoria Australia. When they companies apply for the tender wheelchair accessible buses is part of the contract terms for both trackwork and emergency buses. As these contacts are often for a number of years. Rather than a last minute random selection of local charter bus operaters.

Including the XPT services between Melbourne and Sydney, all rail services and those operated by V Line and most bus/coach services that are operated in Victoria are operated on behalf of the State. That is not the case in the UK. Four months ago I saw rail replacement services in both Avenel and Euroa that were not wheelchair accessible. Most school buses in Victoria and other states are not wheelchair accessible.
I understood that all local buses in Tasmania will not be fully accessible until the 2020s. Not a problem, they do not do rail replacement services.

 

[Smylers]

sorry, wrong. No RRB service can be called a local service. To be a local service under ANY definition ...

Weirdly, in law a single bus could simultaneously be both a local service and not a local service at the same time.

I'm a law-degree drop-out, but I think we were taught that each piece of legislation is independent (except where one piece explicitly refers to each other). Specifically, each defines its own terms. And it's perfectly possible for two separate pieces of legislation to define the same term in different ways; in each case, the definition is effectively saying “where you encounter the term FOO in this document, that's a shortcut for meaning [whatever]”. That meaning overrides whatever preconceptions you have about the term from its use elsewhere in English (including in other legislation).

(To put it the other way round, a piece of legislation involves a particular concept, and to avoid spelling out that precise concept every time it needs to be referred to, the concept is defined once and a ‘label’ specified for it, for use throughout that document. Because human language is woolly, with many words having ambiguous meanings, it's quite likely that two separate pieces of legislation referring to similar concepts end up each picking the same word to use for them, in their own documents. That isn't a problem, because neither has any meaning in the other.)

So legally it's fine for a given bus to be a ‘local service’ for the purposes of one law (such as wheelchair provision) and simultaneously not be a ‘local service’ for a different law (such as traffic commission registration).

[Note, I'm not claiming that that is the case with RRBs: I don't know either of the laws beyond what's been quoted in this thread. Merely that if the rules on accessible buses explain what they mean by a local service, those aren't contradicted by a different law using a different definition.]

 

[Smylers]

you purchase a rail ticket which means you enter a contract with the TOC to travel between 2 points. The fact that they then put you on a replacement bus is immaterial. you still haven't paid for a bus journey you've paid for a rail journey. They have just transferred you to a free, gratis, complimentary replacement bus. So you, as a passenger, haven't paid a fare to travel on the bus...

I'm not sure that follows.

When travelling on a train last month our five-year-old got a free activity pack, with wordsearches and the like in it. That is unquestionably free: the operator didn't have to provide it, and we wouldn't've had any valid complaint if they hadn't. The operator can choose to hand out puzzle books to anybody they want, passenger or not.

But in the case of rail-replacement buses, I — as you say above — have a contract for the train operator to get me to a specific destination. The only reason they are providing a bus service for me is because I have bought a ticket from them. It isn't valid for somebody to travel on the bus service without a ticket. And if the train operator doesn't provide the bus service, they (the train operator) will have to provide me with compensation for not getting to my destination, or reaching it late. There's enough there that makes it not obviously the same sort of ‘free’ as the puzzle book scenario.

Most relevantly, I have had to pay something to the train operator (not the bus operator) to be allowed on the bus. And that opportunity to do so is open to any member of the public.

now it could be argued that the train operator has paid a bus fare on your behalf... but they haven't. that's not how RRB contracts work.

Sure. From the point of view of the bus operator, they are undoubtedly providing a contract service (to the train operator), not a public service. That's because the rail operator (with whom the passenger buys a ticket and has a contract) has chosen to subcontract bus provision to a third party, rather than, say owning a fleet of buses of their own ready for deployment in such a situation. That's an entirely reasonable business decision for the train operator to make, but it doesn't mean they can avoid their obligations to their passengers.

From a passenger's point of view, the train operator is putting on a replacement bus for them. How the train operator makes these buses appear and the details of any contracts they have with bus operators (whether by directly employing bus drivers, contracting a local bus operator, or using a mysterious chain of shell businesses flowing through the Cayman Islands) doesn't affect the relationship between the train operator and the passenger.

If I buy some bread from a supermarket, and when I get home the bread turns out to be mouldy, my contract was with the supermarket, and it's up to them to remedy the situation or compensate me. It doesn't matter whether the supermarket baked the bread themselves in an in-store bakery, had it baked under contract by a third-party bakery, or bought it through an unnecessarily long-winded chain of wholesalers. The baker may well be providing a contract service, but by the time it reaches the customer, it's a retail service.

 

[philthetube]

Or to look at I think another way, run all services with PSVAR-compliant buses and supplement with non-compliant coaches whee traffic demands. Makes sense.

I suspect that most wheelchair users would not be happy at 40mph on a bus between Watford and Milton Keynes.

 

[kevjs]

One further complication that will arise in the very near future is LEZ compliance. How many coaches are Euro 6 compliant?

Outside London is this an issue - the Nottingham one will be local buses only (hence CT4N having a nearly all electric fleet with the Diesels running round suburbia only, and NCT replacing Euro III/IV Double Deckers with BioGas and Euro V buses are being upgrade at the moment - The remaining Euro IV being the subject of a government grant application).

As for Rail Replacement Buses during the Nottingham blockade NCT expanded it's fleet beforehand, used the nearly-new buses on the blockade work, then refurbed them properly after the RR work before getting rid of their old Euro III ones. With the low floor buses there early 00s ones turned out to be non-compliant (Designed for working with raised kerbs and not fitted with ramps) so were prematurely replaced with newer models (although they were the most elderly in the fleet by that time) - I guess on such pre-planned and long closures that is quite "easy" to plan round.

I can understand the issues with rail replacement work (i.e. using older coaches pre-viable wheelchair access) but what I can't understand is why were are still having trains and platforms built to different heights - e.g. after the Nottingham Blockade why on earth do you still have to take a massive step to get on the Meridians (i.e. both 21st century platforms and rolling stock) - should have been aligned at the same time. Okay some stations with curved platforms are harder to fix admittedly, but here they are all straight!

Also, is Stagecoach the only operator with dedicated rail replacement buses? Saw plenty of them during the blockade, and infrequently since. Also, for rail replacement work can "local buses" be used to fill the gaps? NET Trams have had ticket acceptance during issues in Nottingham before now.