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Availability of e-tickets

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johncrossley

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Can someone explain the logic why some flows are enabled and others not?

I just noticed LNER will sell an eTicket from Ifield to St Pancras! Why is that available yet Three Bridges to St Pancras isn't? They are both on the same direct Thameslink route.
 
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Watershed

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Can someone explain the logic why some flows are enabled and others not?

I just noticed LNER will sell an eTicket from Ifield to St Pancras! Why is that available yet Three Bridges to St Pancras isn't? They are both on the same direct Thameslink route.
As per @Paul Kelly's post earlier, even if Ifield were in the same flow as Three Bridges (as it happens, it's not), each station to station combination has e-ticket etc. availability individually defined.

I suspect this is down to Ifield not having barriers, and therefore the risk of e-ticket reuse/refund fraud is seen as unacceptably high. Of course, such commercial considerations are a poor excuse for inconveniencing passengers, particularly since existing paper tickets are far more prone to such misuse!
 

infobleep

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No-one is saying that.

They are selling a product the data does say to sell, but in a medium that is not enabled in the data.
That is what I meant. How are they able to sell something where the data says don't enable it?
 

Bletchleyite

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As St Pancras has barriers, you're always going to get a flag on the e-ticket as it having been used to pass a barrier which would presumably lead to manual investigation.
 

infobleep

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As per @Paul Kelly's post earlier, even if Ifield were in the same flow as Three Bridges (as it happens, it's not), each station to station combination has e-ticket etc. availability individually defined.

I suspect this is down to Ifield not having barriers, and therefore the risk of e-ticket reuse/refund fraud is seen as unacceptably high. Of course, such commercial considerations are a poor excuse for inconveniencing passengers, particularly since existing paper tickets are far more prone to such misuse!
But Isfield has etickets so what is that to do with fraud?
 

Paul Kelly

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How are they able to sell something where the data says don't enable it?
For many years the data on fulfilment methods (which as I said, is totally separate from the main fares data) was riddled with so many errors such that many retail systems did not use it. The situation is improving now.
 

ashkeba

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For many years the data on fulfilment methods (which as I said, is totally separate from the main fares data) was riddled with so many errors such that many retail systems did not use it. The situation is improving now.
Is there a site which displays fulfiment info in a friendly display like brfares.com does for fares info? So people can see if it is the data or retailer not offering.
 

Paul Kelly

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Is there a site which displays fulfiment info in a friendly display like brfares.com does for fares info?
I would show it on BRfares.com if I could, but RDG do not make the fulfilment information available to independent sites in the same way they do with the standard fares data.
 

johncrossley

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But Isfield has etickets so what is that to do with fraud?

Yes, arguably there is less reason for Ifield to be enabled! However I recall that Southern originally rolled out eTickets to the busiest stations as it required barcode readers to be installed, and also stations without barriers as they don't need any installation. Three Bridges wasn't part of the original rollout but Ifield was.

Barcode readers have now been installed at Three Bridges and you can now buy eTickets from Three Bridges to most stations not involving a cross London Underground trip.
 

robbeech

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If a ticket has been sold then it doesn't matter whether it "should" or "shouldn't" have been sold - it's valid.
Whilst certainly accurate, we should never underestimate the ability of someone to tell you otherwise on the day.
 

Watershed

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It's also not true of one issued for LU travel, as I understand it.
As licensed retailers legitimately sell Travelcards and other products valid on LU, they clearly have the apparent authority to bind LU when they sell things like Maltese cross e-tickets.

Of course that the passenger is legally in the right doesn't stop LU from acting in breach of contract.
 

Haywain

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As licensed retailers legitimately sell Travelcards and other products valid on LU, they clearly have the apparent authority to bind LU when they sell things like Maltese cross e-tickets.

Of course that the passenger is legally in the right doesn't stop LU from acting in breach of contract.
I suspect that rather than TfL breaching the contract with the ticket holder it would be the ticket issuer breaching the contract with TfL over how the ticket could be issued.
 

Watershed

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I suspect that rather than TfL breaching the contract with the ticket holder it would be the ticket issuer breaching the contract with TfL over how the ticket could be issued.
Both would quite possibly be the case.
 

Haywain

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Both would quite possibly be the case.
I'm not convinced; the customer has a contract to be conveyed but there must be an implication that they will be provided with a form of ticketing that will be accepted for that conveyance and the breach of contract is by the ticket issuer failing to provide the correct form of ticketing.
 

Watershed

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I'm not convinced; the customer has a contract to be conveyed but there must be an implication that they will be provided with a form of ticketing that will be accepted for that conveyance and the breach of contract is by the ticket issuer failing to provide the correct form of ticketing.
I'm sure @tspaul26 might be able to elaborate a little more on the principles involved here. Anyway, I fear we are heading wildly off topic!
 

infobleep

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The Lavender Line must be the first heritage railway to introduce e tickets! Have they got scanners on their barriers?
Well spotted. Oops. :lol:

I did if course mean Ifield.

So is fulfilment data only made available to accredited booking sites?
 

johncrossley

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The Three Bridges to St Pancras eTicket bought from the EMR app was used this morning and was accepted at the St Pancras barcode reader.
 

Haywain

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Because I commute from Northallerton to York on a regular basis and the app will only fulfill them as tod. I've attached an example. If I selected an any permitted ticket it offers an e ticket.
Grand Central have now had this enabled for eTicket fulfilment by all retailers, so in a few days it should be available to buy in eTicket format.
 

johncrossley

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Grand Central have now had this enabled for eTicket fulfilment by all retailers, so in a few days it should be available to buy in eTicket format.

EMR already sell this in their app as an eTicket.

I found another ticket, Polegate to Gatwick single, not available on the LNER app as eTicket but is on the EMR app.

Is there any good reason for not using the EMR app? It seems to offer a lot more tickets.
 

Haywain

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I found another ticket, Polegate to Gatwick single, not available on the LNER app as eTicket but is on the EMR app.
Which single - SDS or CDS? The SDS is available as an eTicket but the CDS isn't. Is the EMR app offering both as eTickets?
 

johncrossley

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Which single - SDS or CDS? The SDS is available as an eTicket but the CDS isn't. Is the EMR app offering both as eTickets?

I just tested it for tomorrow morning. Anytime and Off-Peak singles both available as eTickets. Also Advance single where available.
 

Haywain

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I just tested it for tomorrow morning. Anytime and Off-Peak singles both available as eTickets. Also Advance single where available.
Curious - there's obviously something weird in the background data that differs as we only see the SDS (of those two) as available for eTicket fulfilment and that applies to both of our TIS. Why EMR would see it differently I don't know.
 

mikeg

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Grand Central have now had this enabled for eTicket fulfilment by all retailers, so in a few days it should be available to buy in eTicket format.
That's great thanks for sorting it (I assume you had some role to play?)
 

JaJaWa

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Is there a site which displays fulfiment info in a friendly display like brfares.com does for fares info? So people can see if it is the data or retailer not offering.
Yes this website shows which fulfilment options are available between 2 stations that you input: https://smartmap.nationalrail.co.uk (by ticket type and TOC).

Trying various routes I've seen the following come up:
  • Oyster
  • Contactless
  • Smartcards
  • m-Ticket
  • e-Ticket
  • Self Print
 

Haywain

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Yes this website shows which fulfilment options are available between 2 stations that you input: https://smartmap.nationalrail.co.uk (by ticket type and TOC).

Trying various routes I've seen the following come up:
  • Oyster
  • Contactless
  • Smartcards
  • m-Ticket
  • e-Ticket
  • Self Print
I wasn't aware of that website but I have just tried a few different journeys and I have to say it should not be regarded as anything more than an indication of what's available. It appears to be less than 100% accurate.
 

paul1609

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I wasn't aware of that website but I have just tried a few different journeys and I have to say it should not be regarded as anything more than an indication of what's available. It appears to be less than 100% accurate.
Its a lot less than 100% accurate for journeys I use in the south east!
 
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