Avanti and Sold Out Trains

[redreni]

I hope I'm not making those - it's not my intention

Not if you have a (flexi) season ticket

I think this represents my view.

I wouldn't mind so much if the wording was "reservations full" or the ilk, and if there was a way for you to book the flexible ticket anyway on the understanding you'd probably need to stand, and there's a chance you might be unable to board due to crowding/safety.

But describing it as "sold out" is slightly disengenous, especially if the 1st class fares are sold as the alternative and the unwary are 'upsold' a 1st flexible fare without realising the standard class flexible ticket is still valid, if you know how to circumvent the journey planner.

Maybe the wording could be something more like "Getting on at Coventry, are we, Sir? This train is not for the likes of you."

 

[357]

I’m not sure what point you’re making here. I’m certainly not “leading calls for increased fares”, I’m simply stating that there has to be an ability to manage demand. If operators can’t take steps such as marking trains as reservation only what are we left with? You appear not to acknowledge this is a problem, or have any other solutions to suggest.



So why are you personalising it? Why does the fact I hold a priv have any bearing on the matter? As I say there are many types of railcard available, so are you suggesting that nobody who benefits from a discount should express a view on these issues, or does that only apply to rail staff?

Agreed. I don't understand the anti-staff atmosphere on this forum sometimes.

 

[redreni]

Agreed. I don't understand the anti-staff atmosphere on this forum sometimes.

I interpreted the comment as suggesting that maybe the perspective of somebody balancing the desire for trains not to be overcrowded against the desire to pay as little as possible, might possibly be slightly different if they were only paying a quarter of the fare. I didn't see any suggestion that such a person wouldn't be entitled to an opinion.

Maybe if you disagree with the point, you could explain why?

 

[357]

I interpreted the comment as suggesting that maybe the perspective of somebody balancing the desire for trains not to be overcrowded against the desire to pay as little as possible, might possibly be slightly different if they were only paying a quarter of the fare. I didn't see any suggestion that such a person wouldn't be entitled to an opinion.

Maybe if you disagree with the point, you could explain why?

So why aren’t disabled rail card holders, young person rail card holders who also pay less also told their perspective is different? Why are staff singled out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why aren’t disabled rail card holders, young person rail card holders who also pay less also told their perspective is different? Why are staff singled out?

75% discount is rather bigger than 33.4% to be fair, and does make rail travel good value even in the context of stuff like the LNER fare increase "trial".

 

[357]

75% discount is rather bigger than 33.4% to be fair, and does make rail travel good value even in the context of stuff like the LNER fare increase "trial".

A critical difference is that many/most staff never/rarely use their priv.

I still don't understand why a discount on tickets discounts our opinions about the railway though?

 

[redreni]

So why aren’t disabled rail card holders, young person rail card holders who also pay less also told their perspective is different? Why are staff singled out?

So no substantive answer to the point that for every £1 the fare goes up for a non-Railcard holder, it only goes up by 25p for Priv, but the effect of the price increase on demand and therefore load factors and passenger comfort for those who do travel is the same?

Even comparing against most Railcard holders, a £1 increase for them is only 37.5p for Priv. Why not just acknowledge this and then carry on making your points, which are still perfectly valid?

Let the rest of us decide what weight, if any, to give Yorkie's point (which is also perfectly valid).

Out of interest, where demand is suppressed artificially not by price increases but by false mandatory reservations flags (the topic under discussion), how would that affect somebody wanting to buy a Priv ticket for an affected journey? I get the impression you have limited choice of where you can buy Priv-discounted tickets? Would you have to use the workaround of selecting a different train? Or can you still buy from a ticket office?

 

[Haywain]

So no substantive answer to the point that for every £1 the fare goes up for a non-Railcard holder, it only goes up by 25p for Priv, but the effect of the price increase on demand and therefore load factors and passenger comfort for those who do travel is the same?

Even comparing against most Railcard holders, a £1 increase for them is only 37.5p for Priv. Why not just acknowledge this and then carry on making your points, which are still perfectly valid?

The problem is that it's being suggested that rail staff have complete immunity from public fares and therefore cannot have a valid opinion about them. The reality is that most rail staff have family and friends who travel and do pay those prices and are therefore aware of and, indirectly at least, affected by them.

Out of interest, where demand is suppressed artificially not by price increases but by false mandatory reservations flags (the topic under discussion), how would that affect somebody wanting to buy a Priv ticket for an affected journey? I get the impression you have limited choice of where you can buy Priv-discounted tickets? Would you have to use the workaround of selecting a different train? Or can you still buy from a ticket office?

It's the same as a member of the public in that buying online presents the same difficulties, but with only one website available. As with anyone else, buying from a ticket office is an option but not from a TVM.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The problem is that it's being suggested that rail staff have complete immunity from public fares and therefore cannot have a valid opinion about them. The reality is that most rail staff have family and friends who travel and do pay those prices and are therefore aware of and, indirectly at least, affected by them.

It's the same as a member of the public in that buying online presents the same difficulties, but with only one website available. As with anyone else, buying from a ticket office is an option but not from a TVM.

Some Priv discounts are only available online so they would need to use a workaround.

 

[357]

So no substantive answer to the point that for every £1 the fare goes up for a non-Railcard holder, it only goes up by 25p for Priv, but the effect of the price increase on demand and therefore load factors and passenger comfort for those who do travel is the same?

That's basic maths. However, we can't use our Priv for work or commuting - so the amount of use they get is significantly less than the element of this forum that assume all staff go for a heavily discounted jolly the moment the finish work until the next time they need to start work.

Even comparing against most Railcard holders, a £1 increase for them is only 37.5p for Priv. Why not just acknowledge this and then carry on making your points, which are still perfectly valid?

What other points have I made? I'm only commenting in this thread because staff were being targeted regarding our benefits package.

Out of interest, where demand is suppressed artificially not by price increases but by false mandatory reservations flags (the topic under discussion), how would that affect somebody wanting to buy a Priv ticket for an affected journey? I get the impression you have limited choice of where you can buy Priv-discounted tickets? Would you have to use the workaround of selecting a different train? Or can you still buy from a ticket office?

I have no idea. I've not even put my current priv in my wallet yet. Some of my colleagues haven't even applied for theirs and have been entitled to one for many years.

I can assure readers of this thread that there are significantly more fare evaders, fraudulent freedom pass users, child ticket abusers and short farers than Priv users on the network.

On a side note, I travel on trains run by my own employer and our sister companies, plus some we have a mutual agreement with using a staff pass where I pay absolutely nothing! Am I allowed an opinion on eg class 195s or overcrowding on eg Northern, or would I also be told to get lost?

 

[yorkie]

It also doesn't surpress demand .

Not at all? Are you sure? I seem to recall @sheff1 reporting being on a fairly empty train at a time of expected high demand, due to this issue.

So why aren’t disabled rail card holders, young person rail card holders who also pay less also told their perspective is different?

Do they get 75 per cent off and/or are they calling for higher fares?

No-one is being "singled out" as such; if those calling for higher fares happen to have a hefty discount then people can make up their own minds about that.

 

[357]

No-one is being "singled out" as such; if those calling for higher fares happen to have a hefty discount then people can make up their own minds about that.

You specifically singled out my colleague on his opinion because he has a Priv?

hefty discount

Hefty discount that many hardly use...

Question - what is your solution to the problem?

 

[yorkie]

You specifically singled out my colleague on his opinion because he has a Priv?

If someone suggests hiking up fares as a possibility, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if they are entitled to a 75 per cent discount. If you have a different opinion, you are entitled to it.

Hefty discount that many hardly use...

Question - what is your solution to the problem?

The onus isn't on me to come up with a solution to whatever problem you have in mind; in any case this isn't the Speculative section.

But the premise of this thread is that some train companies are engaging in a practice that is questionable at best, and needs to be challenged in my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still don't understand why a discount on tickets discounts our opinions about the railway though?

Generally not, but it does affect the objectiveness of any opinion about fares levels when those people pay a much cheaper fare. At 75% discount the LNER fare increase trial is not swingeing. At full price it is.

 

[infobleep]

You specifically singled out my colleague on his opinion because he has a Priv?


Hefty discount that many hardly use...

Question - what is your solution to the problem?

I think some people on here are wondering whether someone without a lived experience can understand what it is like.

So if one doesn't pay the full price can they understand what it's like for people who do.

 

[Haywain]

I think some people on here are wondering whether someone without a lived experience can understand what it is like.

There are plenty of people on the forums who seem able to comment on things they haven't experienced. But of course, they're not staff...

 

[infobleep]

There are plenty of people on the forums who seem able to comment on things they haven't experienced. But of course, they're not staff...

Very true but not that doesn't mean they always fully understand what they are commenting on.

 

[Haywain]

Very true but not that doesn't mean they always fully understand what they are commenting on.

And yet we don't question why they are commenting?

 

[infobleep]

And yet we don't question why they are commenting?

I think some do or at least point out their short comings and that they don't understand what they are talking about.

 

[357]

I think some people on here are wondering whether someone without a lived experience can understand what it is like.

There are people on here that tell drivers and other staff how to do their jobs on a daily basis?

 

[infobleep]

There are people on here that tell drivers and other staff how to do their jobs on a daily basis?

Indeed and don't people call them out at times?

 

[PeterC]

The problem with itinerary based ticketing is that the operator "knows" how many passengers to expect. Imagine the press outcry if a TOC knowingly oversold a busy train.

There is plenty wrong with way things are handled at the moment but if itinerary based ticketing is to continue then there must be a guard against overselling.

 

[jayah]

That's because actual capacity on these trains isn't a problem. Do you use these trains? Clearly you do not. If you did, you'd know it wasn't.

What might be a problem, because seat reservations aren't always allocated most efficiently (particularly where seat selection is offered), is that with the compulsory reservation flag set Birmingham-Cov reservations block sale of a more lucrative Birmingham-London ticket.

The obvious fix for this is to remove the compulsory reservation flag and put things back to how they were in 2019, which on these routes worked absolutely fine. Not to bodge more nonsense on top of the nonsense that is the direct cause of the problem.

Let us not forget that Pendolinos have 1 or 3 completely unreserved Standard coaches.

It's sliding back towards the bad old days of COVID when XC were offering First Class or clear off for an entire day, while their social media were telling staff on free passes to sit in any of the 4 unreserved coaches.

Interoperability is actually one thing the UK does pretty well, but these phony compulsory reservations need to be binned off, perhaps excluding Sleeper trains. Kenilworth to Birmingham and Coventry to Aberystwyth should have the full range of services using a non quota controlled ticket.

If you don't even know the capacity of your services to within 200 seats, stop pretending to be behaving like airline.