Avanti Delay Repay Experience...

[Blinkbonny]

The problem with having a little bit of knowledge of railway matters means that friends and relatives often ask for advice. Glad to help as far as my knowledge allows - but of course there's no allowing for what they might actually experience!

My young nephew, low-waged, was desirous of travelling from Cardiff to Edinburgh for a few days. He found the initially quoted fares of around £200 quite outrageous, and asked me if I could help him find cheaper at all. I persuaded him to buy a 16-25 Railcard and look at Trainsplit.

Trainsplit found him Advance Tickets, fairly late at night, splitting at Crewe and Penrith for around £80 (plus of course his £30 Railcard which - given his experience - he may very well never use again!)

Everything was fine on the way up. Great stuff. He arrived at Waverley in plenty of time for his return journey on the 16.52 on the 7th December only to find the train was cancelled altogether (Fallen tree online.)

He was put on a Replacement Bus to Carlisle, obviously too late to pick up the rest of his itinerary. Nobody at Carlisle was particularly interested in his problem other than somebody telling him to get on a train to Preston.

Thankfully, after asking me what to do, he encountered a guard who helped him as much as he could and advised him to stay on the train to Birmingham New Street and ask again there.

At Birmingham he found that his was not the only train that had been cancelled that night, and in fact he was shocked at the amount of abuse that rail staff were having to experience from stranded passengers.

After consulting me again, he was put into a Taxi from New Street to Cardiff. (Big shout out to the guy that arranged this!) but instead of arriving at Cardiff at the booked 23.04 it was gone half past two - and he still had to travel onwards from there out into the countryside.

No matter - I foolishly assured him - you'll get your whole fare back. And quite frankly, despite the fact that he was so grateful that somebody laid a taxi on for him, I don't regard a journey in the back of a taxi past midnight as being in anyway comparable to the train journey that he had purchased.

Of course, you can guess the rest. Initial Delay Repay to Avanti rejected for "lack of ticket number" (although he forwarded everything that Trainsplit had provided for him.) An email to Customer Services, explaining the situation, results in a reply rejecting his application for a "Ticket Refund" as he had used a third party ticket supplier.

"Dear xxxx Thank you for getting in touch with us to request a refund for your ticket. Whatever your reasons for getting a refund, we do our best to help. After looking into the booking information you have provided us with, it appears that your tickets were purchased via a 3rd party ticket retailer. As we were not the merchants of your ticket, we will not be able to process the refund for your journey. You will need to get in touch with the retailer of your ticket directly, for advice on their refund process and policies. Details in relation to the terms and conditions of tickets purchased from a 3rd party retailer can be found on the refunds section of our website at: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/help-and-support/refund-journey located under the ‘I bought my ticket from another retailer’ tab. I appreciate that this may not have been the response you were hoping for, however I hope you receive your refund soon. Thanks for taking the time to contact us.."

Absolutely so much corporate b******s. He was of course NOT claiming a ticket refund, he was claiming for an extremely uncomfortable delay of over three hours.

And so now of course he has to go through it all again for a third time, in the hope that somebody actually looks at his case instead of just fobbing him off with the nearest available excuse.

How can this possibly be acceptable? And what's his best course of action now?

It's one of the clearest cases of Delay that I have encountered, and yet he's all for giving up - as indeed, without my guidance, he'd probably have just spent the night on Crewe station and bought a fresh ticket the next day.

 

[Hadders]

A couple of things here.

Firstly the disrupted journey, hats off to everyone who got your nephew to Cardiff. Disruption happens with all tyoes of transport from time to time and he should be reassured that he was looked after and not left stranded. I suspect that with other forms of public transport he may well have been left stranded.

Secondly, the delay repay experience is not acceptable. This is quite a complex claim as there is a combination of tickets and a taxi involved. I would telephoen Avanti customer services and speak to someone about it as the online forms aren't really suitable at dealing with this sort of situation.

 

[Haywain]

Sounds like a refund has been requested rather than a Delay Repay claim.

 

[robbeech]

Sounds like a refund has been requested rather than a Delay Repay claim.

It sounds like they have claimed delay repay (when they said the initial delay repay claim was rejected for an ‘out of a hat’ initial fob off reason) and the subsequent appeal has gone through one of the team with insufficient knowledge and has misunderstood the claim and rejected it.

You’d like to think that a further appeal will iron out this problem but I think he’ll have to be prepared to write to the ombudsman as they really seem to be going out of their way to reject at the moment.

As for the journey. It seems as if it was an ordeal but it does seem as if they were helpful overall, a substantial delay but they did get home which is all that can be asked for in the circumstances.

My concern with this sort of disruption is that sometimes it takes a bit of a kick into gear by someone knowledgeable to get them to wake up and comply with the rules and that suggests that a passenger without the knowledge (or a friend on the end of the phone with the knowledge) may not have received the same level of assistance here.

Between Christmas and new year I was put into a ‘stranded’ situation whereby a last minute cancellation would have caused a missed last connection further on. (Journey Newcastle > Retford > Worksop > Whitwell ) As this would have left me at an unstaffed station (Worksop) with a known broken help point I was advised on social media by the operator of the first train (LNER) to seek advice at Retford to likely organise a taxi home. At Retford I was initially confronted with a outright “nothing to do with us we don’t do taxis sorry” which would have been concerning to many passengers who may have been facing a night on a platform. It took a polite but direct and firm reminder of the potential outcome for them to offer to help, which they did by calling Northern control who immediately organised a taxi which subsequently got me home 3 minutes before the train would have. An excellent response by them. So a positive outcome but only when ‘kicked into gear’ with a level of knowledge / experience above that of the average passenger.

 

[AlterEgo]

The answer, as is so often the case, is to pick up the phone and just speak to a person.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I suspect that with other forms of public transport he may well have been left stranded.

Really? I've never known National Express leave passengers. I have known them order coaches (and not just for last services of the day) or, in extreme cases, arrange a taxi. Yes, they get delays, but I've not known them actually strand anyone.
I'm less familiar with airlines but again I think they don't strand anyone. Certainly not at an unstaffed outdoor location!
I guess it depends how you define stranded.
In this case, the railway would have happily stranded the passenger at Crewe had he not have had specialist knowledge at his disposal.

 

[robbeech]

The answer, as is so often the case, is to pick up the phone and just speak to a person.

Absolutely, the only issue with this is one of the key complaints you see with AWC (more than other operators it seems) is that you can be on the phone for 2 hours waiting in a queue and the risk of being cut off is high. This problem appeared out of nowhere at the start of the pandemic so I can only assume they stripped out a bunch of customer service staff to save money like many of the other companies across many industries. Of course they get a taste for lower wages so they may not return.

Really? I've never known National Express leave passengers. I have known them order coaches (and not just for last services of the day) or, in extreme cases, arrange a taxi. Yes, they get delays, but I've not known them actually strand anyone.
I'm less familiar with airlines but again I think they don't strand anyone. Certainly not at an unstaffed outdoor location!
I guess it depends how you define stranded.
In this case, the railway would have happily stranded the passenger at Crewe had he not have had specialist knowledge at his disposal.

There’s plenty of stories of people having to sit in the airport overnight, but at least they’re not an unstaffed station or bus shelter. I’m not sure how coach operators work but certainly bus operators providing local service buses have zero liability to get passengers anywhere at all regardless of whether they have a ticket or not. For example if a bus operator cancels the last bus of the day then you walk, get a taxi at your own expense or you make overnight arrangements at your own expense. The railways is massively massively better in this respect, obviously it goes wrong sometimes and it appears that is getting more common as operators are trying to work their way out of it but on paper the policy is excellent and it certainly worked in this case.

 

[Blinkbonny]

The answer, as is so often the case, is to pick up the phone and just speak to a person.

Yes, this what I have advised him to do - either that or Twitter if he's more comfortable with it.

Previous experience with Virgin (Never tried Avanti yet, but I'm not hopeful!) however leads me to believe there may be a number of problems with this approach


1) You have to get through to somebody.
2) That person has to speak a reasonable level of English (and no offence whatsoever to the many overseas operatives that still manage to do a fantastic job!)
3) Apart from any language issues, that person has to be able to understand just what point it is you're trying to make.
4) That person has to be in a position to be able to do anything about it!

After one particular nightmare experience with Virgin I was given access to a special number (!) and I received exemplary service. Who knows if that number still exists - however I'm not about to pass it on just yet.

The wider question of the taxi etc. Yes, I agree it was fantastic they got him home. I do however firmly believe that without my advice he would never have got past Crewe for the night, and perhaps even that if it hadn't been for the absolute chaos at New Street he may not have been dealt with there so promptly. Still all in all, it's good to know that if you know your rights - and meet the right person -you will be given them.

Another plus from it all is that at no point did anybody have any issue with him travelling on split tickets. Although maybe the lack of concern at Carlisle for his predicament may have arisen from him just having an initial ticket as far as Penrith. Hopefully not, as the train they told him to get on heading South didn't even stop there!

Anyway - as a wider question - am I alone in beginning to regret having a bit of a reputation as a rail travel expert?

 

[robbeech]

Anyway - as a wider question - am I alone in beginning to regret having a bit of a reputation as a rail travel expert?

It’s a blessing and a curse.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Ok everybody, thanks for your input. Today he was refunded £34.25 - The cost of his return legs. He went up on advance singles and returned on advance singles, all bought in a single transaction. Does that mean he's not entitled to a full return journey refund?

If they'd just given him that in the first place without all the teeth pulling I'd be inclined to leave it at that, but if he IS entitled to the full return journey....

 

[Haywain]

He went up on advance singles and returned on advance singles, all bought in a single transaction. Does that mean he's not entitled to a full return journey refund?

No, for Delay Repay purposes they are single tickets, so the outward tickets are of no relevance to a delay on the return journey.

 

[robbeech]

I’m afraid that is correct, even if it seems ridiculous (I agree). Here is a perfect example of where single leg pricing strips passenger rights. Whilst it’s always been the case with advance singles the same applies to flows where there is no longer a return fare. The railway market this as a simplification in the fares structure where as in reality all it does is confuse passengers, take away much of the flexibility and halve the delay repay Compensation they’re entitled to for the most severe disruption. It’s a notable stealthy reduction in the true value of your ticket.

 

[Horizon22]

I’m afraid that is correct, even if it seems ridiculous (I agree). Here is a perfect example of where single leg pricing strips passenger rights. Whilst it’s always been the case with advance singles the same applies to flows where there is no longer a return fare. The railway market this as a simplification in the fares structure where as in reality all it does is confuse passengers, take away much of the flexibility and halve the delay repay Compensation they’re entitled to for the most severe disruption. It’s a notable stealthy reduction in the true value of your ticket.

Why would someone be entitled to a refund on a journey that was completely without issue? (the outbound portion ran fine). Thus they got 100% of their return fare which seems entirely reasonable given the significant disruption they encountered.

 

[robbeech]

Why would someone be entitled to a refund on a journey that was completely without issue? (the outbound portion ran fine). Thus they got 100% of their return fare which seems entirely reasonable given the significant disruption they encountered.

They’re the rules with advances and they’ve always been the rules so that’s fair. But other rights are being removed left right and centre without amendment to the price of tickets so it’s just a reduction in true ticket value.

Even if it’s unreasonable to offer 100% of a return ticket for a 2 hour delay, they are the rules and that’s what rights you get for your money, so attempts to bypass those rules by the operators by changing the available tickets is unwelcome.