Avanti IET Speeds

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Chiltern006

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Hello all
Will the new Hitachi units on Avanti be modified to run 125mph on the WCML or be limited to 110? Cheers
 
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Scotrail314209

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They won't be tilt enabled, but can still run at 125. However as they can't tilt they will need to be slower round curves, but the acceleration means theres no decrease in journey times. I'm assuming on straight sections they could run at 125 without issue
 

Huntergreed

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Units will have a design maximum speed of 125mph but I believe they will be restricted to 110mph running on the mainline as they don’t tilt so EPS won’t apply.

That being said, I believe the caveat is that they will be much, much quicker at accelerating and, as a result, this will partially make up for running 15mph slower.
 

hexagon789

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I thought there was that plan to permit speeds over 110 for non-tilting trains on the WCML. Orignally on the northern end for TPE 397s, but more recently the Southern section taking priority specifically due to the non-tilt Avanti IETs.

Most increases would be to 115/120 rather than the full 125 but that would be allowed in a few places.

So has this plan been entirely shelved now?
 

Bald Rick

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I thought there was that plan to permit speeds over 110 for non-tilting trains on the WCML. Orignally on the northern end for TPE 397s, but more recently the Southern section taking priority specifically due to the non-tilt Avanti IETs.

Most increases would be to 115/120 rather than the full 125 but that would be allowed in a few places.

So has this plan been entirely shelved now?

Someone needs to pay for it...
 

The Planner

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They won't be tilt enabled, but can still run at 125. However as they can't tilt they will need to be slower round curves, but the acceleration means theres no decrease in journey times. I'm assuming on straight sections they could run at 125 without issue
Not the case. They will lose some time.
Units will have a design maximum speed of 125mph but I believe they will be restricted to 110mph running on the mainline as they don’t tilt so EPS won’t apply.

That being said, I believe the caveat is that they will be much, much quicker at accelerating and, as a result, this will partially make up for running 15mph slower.
Work still going on to raise non EPS line speeds led by Avanti, but it has slowed down as of late.
 

hexagon789

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Someone needs to pay for it...
Of course, and the I assume increased maintenance as a result, but my impression was NR was actively pursuing the 110mph+ non-tilt on the WCML or at least they were

Work still going on to raise non EPS line speeds led by Avanti, but it has slowed down as of late.
That was the last I had heard ongoing but delayed. It is still going on then?
 

Bald Rick

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AIUI, NR haven’t been asked to do anything, yet. The studies to date have been done by HS2 and Avanti.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Avanti is still negotiating a 5-year direct award with DfT, to replace the current ERMA.
In the meantime, DfT is not likely to underwrite extra spend for NR to alter the route speed profile.
This week is also supposed to be the deadline for most of the other TOC owning groups to agree franchise termination deals with DfT.
 

swt_passenger

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Hello all
Will the new Hitachi units on Avanti be modified to run 125mph on the WCML or be limited to 110? Cheers
I think you’re asking the wrong question. The infrastructure needs the modifications, not the trains, as the last few posts mention...
 

Railperf

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Units will have a design maximum speed of 125mph but I believe they will be restricted to 110mph running on the mainline as they don’t tilt so EPS won’t apply.

That being said, I believe the caveat is that they will be much, much quicker at accelerating and, as a result, this will partially make up for running 15mph slower.
All this talk of IET;s accelerating so much quicker than a Class 390 is absolute nonsense. A Class 801 does 0-125mph in 3 mins flat. The 390's take around 20 seconds longer. It makes very little difference on the road. There's only a few seconds in if you were to try and stage a drag race from 0 to 5 miles!

Even if you could save 10 or 15 seconds per 0-125mph acceleration - you'd need at least three or four station stops to claim back a single minute of time. As an example - 390's run Carlisle to Carstairs junction approx 5 mins quicker than an IET. There's only one major station start from Carlisle. And the 390's have a better top end acceleration for accelerating back to the higher speeds from 80 and 90mph.

The 390's are often run in ECO mode unless running late, so can feel slower. On the other hand, the 390's do seem to have greater noise insulation and a smoother ride - which can disguise how fast they are actually going.

Until we see a definitive chart showing what the uprated non-EPS limits will be - then it is impossible to say how much slower the IET's will run.

Remember the WCML North was supposed to have had sections of track upgraded for 125mph by now for TPE's Class 397's. And yet it hasn't happened yet.
 

Bald Rick

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Everything you wrote was bang on up to this point:

Remember the WCML North was supposed to have had sections of track upgraded for 125mph by now for TPE's Class 397's.

As far as I’m aware, there’s never been anything more than a cursory look at this, and certainly no commitment to do the work.
 

Railperf

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Everything you wrote was bang on up to this point:



As far as I’m aware, there’s never been anything more than a cursory look at this, and certainly no commitment to do the work.
Rail Magazine did an article on in December 2019 and I quote:
"TPE, CAF, Hitachi and Network Rail have undertaken extensive modelling to assess the requirements for non-tilting 125mph operation. The overhead traction equipment (not least the tension of the contact wire), signalling distances and vertical alignment (even a railway has to consider vertical accelerations to keep passengers comfortable and track materials intact) are 125mph-capable without any alteration.

Only curving forces present an issue, and having identified several test sections, CAF in particular have been running their Class 397s at the proposed speeds and ensuring that comfort in the passenger saloons isn’t impacted. Testing of this aspect of the new trains’ operation has shown that 125mph without tilt is comfortably feasible, and that the better acceleration of the units allows them to make more use of the short straight sections between curves. If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed-off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year
.
"......., some pragmatism from rolling stock and infrastructure engineers has gained a quick win for passengers. 125mph operations without tilt are happening as you read this issue of RAIL [edit: not passenger service though, that has to wait for the new speed signs to be put up, which looks like it won’t happen before the middle of 2020].

Link to original article here: https://garethdennis.medium.com/is-the-end-already-in-sight-for-britains-tilting-trains-b6ebb496433c
 
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Bald Rick

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Rail Magazine did an article on in December 2019 and I quote:

"TPE, CAF, Hitachi and Network Rail have undertaken extensive modelling to assess the requirements for non-tilting 125mph operation. The overhead traction equipment (not least the tension of the contact wire), signalling distances and vertical alignment (even a railway has to consider vertical accelerations to keep passengers comfortable and track materials intact) are 125mph-capable without any alteration.

Only curving forces present an issue, and having identified several test sections, CAF in particular have been running their Class 397s at the proposed speeds and ensuring that comfort in the passenger saloons isn’t impacted. Testing of this aspect of the new trains’ operation has shown that 125mph without tilt is comfortably feasible, and that the better acceleration of the units allows them to make more use of the short straight sections between curves. If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed-off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year
."

Ah, believing what you read in Rail. A common error.
 

Railperf

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Ah, believing what you read in Rail. A common error.
Hmmm...within reason i do expect articles of this nature to be reasonably accurate. I have been a journalist myself - and do contribute to some articles. If it ain't factual, i'm not writing it!
 

gka472l

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Which they won't be using much at all if the plan remains to keep them on London-Birmingham and London-Chester/Shrewsbury!
The 807's (as opposed to the bi-mode 805's) are mainly intended for the additional Liverpool service to make that route two an hour, with the odd West Mids working.

HTH
 

Wapps

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We have gone backwards. Tilting infrastructure and they ordered a non-tilting train. They might as well have taken surplus class 90s with Mark IV carriages.
 

HarryL

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It does seem a bit crazy to order new trains that will end up running slower. Obviously IETs are basically the default option these days and almost all First operations have them, but how much extra would it have cost to give the west coast ones tilting capabilities? They're already ordering their own spec of them as it is.
 
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