Avanti "not accepting Trainline tickets"?

[Howardh]

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Got on their 11.23am train yesterday from Rugby to Euston with 2 all day off peak return bought the day before from trainline.com. Turns out they don't accept tickets from trainline. Got threatened by their staff with police action until I paid 92 QUID. Not allowed off the train either. That's a lot of money to a person holding what they genuinely believe is a valid ticket.

Massive scam.

J Wilson on Trustpilot.

OK, all we have is a short paragraph, and there may be a lot more to it - but this is the first time I have heard of a TOC not accepting tickets from a third party such as Trainline, Split-ticketing and so on. However I do note that they are happy to allow Seatfrog for upgrades.

If a pax has a perfectly valid ticket for the train the want to catch (and let's assume this is a fuly-paid for correct time/date and the ticket hasn't been disfigured) what rights does a pax have if they aren't allowed on?

But Avanti West Coast are becoming frightening the shoddy way they treat their customers? I really think they are trying to turn their customers away from first-class by stealth to run an all-standard train?? But then again, it appears they aren't letting standard-class passengers on??

 

[Royston Vasey]

The quote is 100% not the full story and I doubt any Avanti employee had ever or would ever have said that. Let me guess... wrong route, wrong day or wrong operator. Take your pick. I'm going to guess it's a "West Midlands Trains only" restriction that Avanti would not accept and nothing to do with Trainline.

 

[yorkie]

The quote is 100% not the full story and I doubt any Avanti employee had ever or would ever have said that. Let me guess... wrong route, wrong day or wrong operator. Take your pick. I'm going to guess it's a "West Midlands Trains only" restriction that Avanti would not accept and nothing to do with Trainline.

I know for a fact that some staff refuse to accept valid tickets and instruct customers not to use third party sites; when such incidents occur Trainline do tend to be mentioned by name (even if the customer didn't actually book with them).

Here is an example; below is an actual letter that was sent to GWR by a forum member in 2018, after their staff rejected a valid ticket. Although not mentioned in the letter, Trainline were mentioned by name specifically by GWR staff. The customer was not successful in their initial letter to GWR. The retailer they booked with contacted GWR and the matter was then resolved with a refund and complimentary travel ticket. Staff who work Paddington later confirmed that the company had issued a reminder to accept such tickets in future.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I booked a return journey from Reading to Paddington on Friday 27 April (booking confirmation attached); on the return journey I approached Emmanuel at the gateline who said that the ticket was not valid on the 1830 or 1833 fast trains to Reading.

He looked at my booking confirmation, which stated the 1833 Plymouth train, and said that it was wrong and the ticket did not allow me to travel to Reading on "peak" trains. Another member of your gateline staff called Danny said similar and that GWR does not accept booking confirmations as evidence of validity.

I was directed to the customer information desk, where David also confirmed that it was the company's policy not to allow travel to customers who have itineraries which the company deems invalid. I asked to speak to a manager; I was directed to the ticket office.

I then spoke to Audrey who was very polite but did state it was company policy not to allow travel on fast trains to Reading at peak times even if the customer holds a reservation or booking confirmation. I asked if this was evidence of a contract to travel at that time; he said it was not. He advised me not to book with third party websites as they make mistakes, and to book direct with GWR.

In the end I was over half an hour late into Reading and was denied travel in accordance with the terms of the contract.

I have since looked on the GWR website and this shows the same ticket as being valid for the 1833 train on future dates.

I would like to request clarification regarding what the company's policy is on this matter, and invite you to demonstrate how you will ensure that staff do not put the company in a position of breaching contractual terms in future.

Yours faithfully,

While we do not know exactly what happened with this Avanti incident, we do know that some Avanti staff behave in an appalling manner (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-euston-gateline-staff-so-hostile.196174/ ) and we do know that some rail staff reject valid tickets issued by third party sites, with derogatory comments towards those retailers.

Don't doubt for a moment that this sort of thing does happen!

 

[Howardh]

I know for a fact that some staff refuse to accept valid tickets and instruct customers not to use third party sites; when such incidents occur Trainline do tend to be mentioned by name (even if the customer didn't actually book with them).

Here is an example; below is an actual letter that was sent to GWR by a forum member in 2018, after their staff rejected a valid ticket. Although not mentioned in the letter, Trainline were mentioned by name specifically by GWR staff. The customer was not successful in their initial letter to GWR. The retailer they booked with contacted GWR and the matter was then resolved with a refund and complimentary travel ticket. Staff who work Paddington later confirmed that the company had issued a reminder to accept such tickets in future.

​

While we do not know exactly what happened with this Avanti incident, we do know that some Avanti staff behave in an appalling manner (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-are-euston-gateline-staff-so-hostile.196174/ ) and we do know that some rail staff reject valid tickets issued by third party sites, with derogatory comments towards those retailers.

Don't doubt for a moment that this sort of thing does happen!

Thanks - so what rights does the customer have if they are denied boarding? How are they to know that the third party has "made a mistake" - can they get the balance of an upgraded ticket from them?

In my case I book from Bolton to Euston using Northern's app - am I likely to be denied access to an Avanti train? All this is very stressful for the passenger.

 

[Royston Vasey]

@yorkie GWR peak time gateline ineptitude at Paddington is renowned and the example looks a much more general issue than merely a Trainline itinerary and who the retailer was may only have been a secondary issue used as a further excuse. Some of those are morons and just make it up. In this case, in a onboard check, I'm sticking by "West Midlands Trains only" until proven otherwise.

 

[Starmill]

Threatening or actually using the police to remove people from the train over a ticket related dispute, where the customer had an entirely valid ticket, is something their staff have been know to do in the past.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks - so what rights does the customer have if they are denied boarding?

What rights does a customer have if they have been denied the right to travel? That's a tricky one to answer as their rights have already been denied.

You could pay for a new ticket and insist that Avanti refunds it. If it was me, I would ensure that I made it clear the new ticket was being brought under duress, I would use a credit card, and if the refund request was denied I would be contacting the original retailer, informing them of my reference number and asking if they would contact Avanti on my behalf asking Avanti to resolve my case.

I'd be using a retailer who I know I could trust to do this.

If all else failed, I would be referring the matter to the Rail Ombudsman, ORR and I would also consider making a credit card chargeback.

How are they to know that the third party has "made a mistake" - can they get the balance of an upgraded ticket from them?

This is a matter between the train company and retailer. The customer cannot be penalised. They can either make a note of the details of the ticket, photograph it or they could withdraw it, but a withdrawal of the ticket could only be done if they issued a free of charge replacement ticket for the whole journey.

In my case I book from Bolton to Euston using Northern's app - am I likely to be denied access to an Avanti train? All this is very stressful for the passenger.

At Manchester? Very unlikely. On the return journey at Euston? Still unlikely though nothing can be ruled out at Euston.

@yorkie GWR peak time gateline ineptitude at Paddington is renowned and the example looks a much more general issue than merely a Trainline itinerary and who the retailer was may only have been a secondary issue used as a further excuse. Some of those are morons and just make it up.

It was a GWR data error, but staff were blaming the retailer, and instructing the passenger not to use third party retailers such as Trainline on the basis they apparently issue invalid itineraries.

In this case, in a onboard check, I'm sticking by "West Midlands Trains only" until proven otherwise.

Possibly, but there is insufficient information to say either way.

My point is that the possibility of the behaviour being as described does exist as I, and others I know, have witnessed such behaviour on previous occasions.

 

[Darandio]

The quote is 100% not the full story and I doubt any Avanti employee had ever or would ever have said that. Let me guess... wrong route, wrong day or wrong operator. Take your pick. I'm going to guess it's a "West Midlands Trains only" restriction that Avanti would not accept and nothing to do with Trainline.

Given what seems an increase in incorrect behaviour by staff since Avanti have taken over, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss anything. Only a couple of weeks ago they openly tried to state that NRE (National Rail Enquiries) is irrelevant and they are not bound by anything it says. Giving out incorrect information such as that hasn't been an isolated case either.

 

[Trackman]

Haven't we had this recently on the forums?
Someone on an Avanti train with some sort of mobile ticket and was told it wasn't valid because it was trainline ticket.
I've had a search of the posts, cant find anything, I might be thinking of something else.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Avanti and VTWC guards have been known to behave despicably- one just got sacked for their behaviour at Crewe- but I suspect this person on Trustpilot bought a WMR/LNR-Only ticket.

That said, railway staff behaviour generally seems to be deteriorating- I've seen arguments (involving other passengers) I wouldn't have seen even ten years ago- and I do wonder what that is all about. I suspect it's weak management and a trade union whose leaders think assaulting "scabs" is ok.

 

[James H]

Haven't we had this recently on the forums?
Someone on an Avanti train with some sort of mobile ticket and was told it wasn't valid because it was trainline ticket.
I've had a search of the posts, cant find anything, I might be thinking of something else.

You may be thinking of the poster who had trouble on CrossCountry because their e-ticket had been purchased from Avanti

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti and VTWC guards have been known to behave despicably- one just got sacked for their behaviour at Crewe- but I suspect this person on Trustpilot bought a WMR/LNR-Only ticket.

That said, railway staff behaviour generally seems to be deteriorating- I've seen arguments (involving other passengers) I wouldn't have seen even ten years ago- and I do wonder what that is all about. I suspect it's weak management and a trade union whose leaders think assaulting "scabs" is ok.

The one who was sacked, does it relate to the disability related incident? If so, good.

 

[bb21]

Since the discussion has strayed far away from the actual topic, locked.