Avanti Reduced Speeds 24/01 - 25/01

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RightAwayGuy

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As a result of the weather conditions we are seeing Avanti have been running services at a maximum speed of 100mph all day today. This is set to continue until the end of service Monday. I believe this is as a result of the ice build-up on the bogies leading to a large number of broken windscreens and outer bodyside windows. The speed restriction applies to both 221s and 390s.

The actual time lost is somewhat mitigated by the generous timings in place with the COVID timetable.
 
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Ceat0908

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Is it across the entire network? For example, between Preston and Carlisle, it seemed to be normal working, but from Gretna JN to carstairs it was definitely reduced to 100MPH max on board today as we lost around 8 mins.
 

RightAwayGuy

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Is it across the entire network? For example, between Preston and Carlisle, it seemed to be normal working, but from Gretna JN to carstairs it was definitely reduced to 100MPH max on board today as we lost around 8 mins.
It is across the network for all traction.
 

Mag_seven

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As a result of the weather conditions we are seeing Avanti have been running services at a maximum speed of 100mph all day today. This is set to continue until the end of service Monday

Is there anything different about the icy conditions now and those icy/cold periods we have experienced in previous winters?
 

Carlisle

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Is there anything different about the icy conditions now and those icy/cold periods we have experienced in previous winters?
I seem to remember there were quite a few broken train windows & windscreens during those 2 very cold winters of 2010/ 11.
Are speed restrictions for similar reasons routinely implemented on the considerably higher speed lines elsewhere in Europe?
 
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ChiefPlanner

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That's the sort of comment you expect from mr or mrs sarcasm on a local newspapers Facebook page.

Quite - and not one to be appreciated by those keeping the services going - including depot staff removing ice build up off the underneath of units.
 

dk1

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Quite - and not one to be appreciated by those keeping the services going - including depot staff removing ice build up off the underneath of units.
Remember being in my office as IC sets came into the shed during after such weather conditions & great chunks falling off as it began to melt. You didn't want to be in the pit below without a hard hat.
 

1955LR

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Am I right in assuming the glass breakage issue is ice hitting the glass or is it the actual temperature creating stress in the glass?
 

dk1

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Am I right in assuming the glass breakage issue is ice hitting the glass or is it the actual temperature creating stress in the glass?
From what I recall it was ice. There was an option of running at reduced speed but Virgin chose to run the full VHF schedule normally & suffered many incidents which ended up with trains out of traffic over the subsequent days.
 

Nottingham59

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Many apologies, I didn't mean to come across as sarcastic. It was just that I imagine that you will get very different sorts and amounts of ice build-up depending on the temperature and humidity conditions encountered over the course of a day's working, and some of these ice profiles will be much more likely than others to fall off the rolling stock in large hard lumps likely to cause damage to windows etc. at speed.
 

dk1

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Many apologies, I didn't mean to come across as sarcastic. It was just that I imagine that you will get very different sorts and amounts of ice build-up depending on the temperature and humidity conditions encountered over the course of a day's working, and some of these ice profiles will be much more likely than others to fall off the rolling stock in large hard lumps likely to cause damage to windows etc. at speed.
No worries mate. My Dad has been saying that for everything rail related to me since the late 80s & still thinks its amusing <(
 

eMeS

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Could Avanti have changed their insurers? Decades ago when I was working for GEC, Lord Weinstock changed the company's insurers and we had to be a lot more pro-active in managing business risks.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Remember being in my office as IC sets came into the shed during after such weather conditions & great chunks falling off as it began to melt. You didn't want to be in the pit below without a hard hat.

Exactly - half a ton of ice under some sets on WCML I am advised , and yes , done my fair bit of deicing trains (and tracks) back in the day. We had a 20 set Freightliner frozen to the rails at the Beach Sidings in Felixstowe , loaded for a special to Swansea - berthed for a couple of hours and ended up frozen. 4x37's , the FDRC O8 and a lot of manual spraying got it moved , eventually. Another risk was blocks of ice coming off the top of containers in transit.

These are not trivial issues.
 

greyman42

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Can someone explain how the ice on bogies ends up breaking windscreens and windows?
 

RightAwayGuy

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Can someone explain how the ice on bogies ends up breaking windscreens and windows?
Often the ice and snow on the bogies ends up with bits ballast frozen into it. When two trains pass together this can result in pieces of ballast hitting the windscreen at near 250mph collision speed.
 

Nottingham59

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Ice falling off the bogies will hit the ballast at at around 120mph and it could go anywhere, including richocheting into the windows of following carriages. But I imagine the biggest danger occurs when trains are passing each other at speed, as it would then be much easier for the ice/ballast shrapnel to intersect with a window pane,

I don't have any direct experience, but a single-wheel derailment at Market Harborough in 2010 kicked up a lot of ballast, and broke at least one window of the train itself, so self-inflicted wounds can happen. But road vehicles passing under a bridge were showered with ballast, so the main danger is to other vehicles (and people on platforms and crossings, of course).

The RAIB report is here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...74a428d00015d/R012012_120130_East_Langton.pdf
 

Master Cutler

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The speed of the 221 Avanti Voyager I saw today at about 13:00 was a steady 60mph.
I was driving north on the A4146 dual carriage way through Stoke Hammond and met a north bound Super Voyager on the parallel West Coast main line just south of Milton Keynes.
At first I thought it was slowing down for a danger signal but it held a steady 60 all the way up until I took a right turn at Newton Leys.
Understandable taking account of the snow and -5 deg C temperatures seen on that stretch at 07:00 this morning.
 

Ceat0908

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Interesting that normal running re commenced at 1630. 9S70 lost time between Carlisle, departing at 1702, and Edinburgh due to running at 100MPH max. Wonder if the message of normal running cannot be communicated to driver en route (driver would’ve taken over at Preston at 1553)
 

The Chimaera

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Interesting that normal running re commenced at 1630. 9S70 lost time between Carlisle, departing at 1702, and Edinburgh due to running at 100MPH max. Wonder if the message of normal running cannot be communicated to driver en route (driver would’ve taken over at Preston at 1553)
If snow is falling or being disturbed by the passage of trains all disk braked passenger stock would be limited to 100mph anyway. This helps to stop ice build up in the brake callipers that can reduce brake performance.
 

Ceat0908

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If snow is falling or being disturbed by the passage of trains all disk braked passenger stock would be limited to 100mph anyway. This helps to stop ice build up in the brake callipers that can reduce braking ability.
I thought that 125 running was allowed, as long as running break tests are carried out every 3-5 mins. Except on pendos as they have snow brakes.
 

RightAwayGuy

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I thought that 125 running was allowed, as long as running break tests are carried out every 3-5 mins. Except on pendos as they have snow brakes.
With 390s the instruction is during falling snow or snow disturbed by the passage of trains 100mph max speed or 10 mph below PS whichever is lower and the snow brake to be operated every 3-5 minutes. The snow brake provides 1 bar of brake pressure for 15 seconds once pressed. If the snow brake is defective a full service brake application with a retardation of 10mph minimum every 3-5 minutes. Also the regenerative brake must be isolated.
 
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Boodiggy

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Interesting that normal running re commenced at 1630. 9S70 lost time between Carlisle, departing at 1702, and Edinburgh due to running at 100MPH max. Wonder if the message of normal running cannot be communicated to driver en route (driver would’ve taken over at Preston at 1553)
The Train Manager would inform the driver after they are contacted by control - email or phone call...
 

Crossover

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With 390s the instruction is during falling snow or snow disturbed by the passage of trains 100mph max speed or 10 mph below PS whichever is lower
I presume there is a minimum PS which it applied to as well? I can't imagine a reduction of a 15mph limit to 5mph is going to have significant effect on much other than obliterating the service further
 

RightAwayGuy

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I presume there is a minimum PS which it applied to as well? I can't imagine a reduction of a 15mph limit to 5mph is going to have significant effect on much other than obliterating the service further
50 mph is the minimum PS.
 
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