Avanti West Coast and HS2.

[Hb06_]

As HS2 mostly follows the same path as Avanti West Coast, what sort of relationship will the two operators have? Will HS2 be under Avanti West Coast branding and if not, who would be the operator for HS2?

 

[Mills444]

Services on High Speed 2 are included within the West Coast Partnership franchise, which was awarded to Avanti West Coast—a joint venture between FirstGroup and Trenitalia—when the franchise commenced in December 2019. Avanti West Coast will be responsible for running all aspects of the service including ticketing, trains and the maintenance of the infrastructure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Except that Avanti is not choosing and buying the trains for HS2 - DfT is doing that, similar to the IEP programme.
As it stands I think HS2 Ltd will be managing the infrastructure, probably via Network Rail as contractor (as for HS1).
The rights to sell the capacity for HS2 may also be sold to a third party - again as for HS1.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if it will have "Avanti High Speed" branding or similar? Otherwise the suffix seems a little unnecessary - there must be an intention for "Avanti <something else>" at some point.

 

[Hb06_]

I wonder if it will have "Avanti High Speed" branding or similar? Otherwise the suffix seems a little unnecessary - there must be an intention for "Avanti <something else>" at some point.

I was thinking that, they did similar for Southeastern on HS1.

 

[Hb06_]

Except that Avanti is not choosing and buying the trains for HS2 - DfT is doing that, similar to the IEP programme.
As it stands I think HS2 Ltd will be managing the infrastructure, probably via Network Rail as contractor (as for HS1).
The rights to sell the capacity for HS2 may also be sold to a third party - again as for HS1.

Didn't Southeastern buy the trains for HS1? Wouldn't it be the same for HS2?

 

[Domh245]

Didn't Southeastern buy the trains for HS1? Wouldn't it be the same for HS2?

No, SouthEastern didn't 'buy' the trains - Hitachi were decided on before they were even awarded the integrated kent franchise, and they were bought by HSBC rail (now Eversholt) as part of a build & maintain consortium and leased to the whoever operated the IKF. It's almost exactly the same as will be happening with HS2

 

[Hb06_]

No, SouthEastern didn't 'buy' the trains - Hitachi were decided on before they were even awarded the integrated kent franchise, and they were bought by HSBC rail (now Eversholt) as part of a build & maintain consortium and leased to the whoever operated the IKF. It's almost exactly the same as will be happening with HS2

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Energy]

How much control does Avanti have over the interior? LNER/Virgin got to choose some of the interior of their IETs but GWR got stuck with a grey interior.

 

[Hb06_]

How much control does Avanti have over the interior? LNER/Virgin got to choose some of the interior of their IETs but GWR got stuck with a grey interior.

Do you mean for national rail services? So far, they haven't changed anything, but they are apparently changing the interior as I read on their website.

 

[Hb06_]

So is the HS2 fleet gonna be branded in Avanti West Coast livery similar to Southeastern Highspeed?

 

[Energy]

Do you mean for national rail services? So far, they haven't changed anything, but they are apparently changing the interior as I read on their website.

I mean for control over the new HS2 train order.

 

[Hb06_]

I mean for control over the new HS2 train order.

Southeastern did, so I assume they will too.

 

[quantinghome]

Franchising as we know it is dead. All franchises are now moved on to management contracts - effectively concessions as per TfL rail and Merseyrail.

Branding etc will be decided much closer to the time. But I imagine it would be branded completely differently to whatever runs on WCML after HS2 opens.

The really important thing that should be happening right now is proper consultation and planning on how best to use the freed up capacity on the WCML. This is vital as it's one of the biggest reasons for building HS2. Unfortunately the DfT are content to give outline ideas about the revised service and wait until just before HS2 opens to work out the detail. That can't wait; it needs to happen now.

I would like to see the current Avanti service given over to a regular interval semi-fast service on the current fast lines. Every train should stop at Watford, MK and Rugby. There's no need for non-stop services. They will just eat up capacity.

 

[popeter45]

Franchising as we know it is dead. All franchises are now moved on to management contracts - effectively concessions as per TfL rail and Merseyrail.

Branding etc will be decided much closer to the time. But I imagine it would be branded completely differently to whatever runs on WCML after HS2 opens.

The really important thing that should be happening right now is proper consultation and planning on how best to use the freed up capacity on the WCML. This is vital as it's one of the biggest reasons for building HS2. Unfortunately the DfT are content to give outline ideas about the revised service and wait until just before HS2 opens to work out the detail. That can't wait; it needs to happen now.

I would like to see the current Avanti service given over to a regular interval semi-fast service on the current fast lines. Every train should stop at Watford, MK and Rugby. There's no need for non-stop services. They will just eat up capacity.

management contracts are only temporary due to COVID-19 crisis so after this it will revert to Franchises
pretty sure it will be Dft who decide layout and seats but will be Avanti who decide branding

 

[Hb06_]

pretty sure it will be Dft who decide layout and seats but will be Avanti who decide branding

That's sounds likely. This is what happened with Southeastern Highspeed, I'm pretty sure.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

I wonder if it will have "Avanti High Speed" branding or similar? Otherwise the suffix seems a little unnecessary - there must be an intention for "Avanti <something else>" at some point.

Unfortunately the DfT are content to give outline ideas about the revised service and wait until just before HS2 opens to work out the detail. That can't wait; it needs to happen now.

Even if everything happens to plan, there are years and years of construction ahead, and plenty of time to decide these things in the future. "It needs to happen now" is simply never going to happen, and people will soon be asking when advance tickets go on sale at this rate.

 

[Domh245]

It'll be HS2 ltd that have the final say over the rolling stock as they are the official procurer. AWC will have input over the requirements for this, and should have submitted a first draft of this to HS2 ltd on the 31st March

AWC will also be developing "recommendations for the development of a marketing strategy which will include product, service and brand proposals", due within 6 months of franchise start, as well as more concrete proposals in 2023 with it finalised 36 months prior to HS services starting.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/west-coast-partnership-2019-rail-franchise-agreement - if anyone wants to spend hours chasing clauses through the different documents setting out AWC's obligations (vols 1 & 4 are the useful ones)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

management contracts are only temporary due to COVID-19 crisis so after this it will revert to Franchises
pretty sure it will be Dft who decide layout and seats but will be Avanti who decide branding

Avanti has a consultative role in HS2 service matters, as part of the way the franchise was let - it is why Trenitalia is in there to provide High Speed experience.
But as it stands I don't think that gives them a casting vote over any design issues.
Network Rail also has a role as the operator of the part of the WCML that HS2 trains will run on.

One other morsel from the Business Case published yesterday is that HS2 trains will run at a maximum of 177 km/h (110mph) on the WCML.
So there is no DfT expectation at the moment of any line speed increases on the WCML for non-tilting trains.

 

[quantinghome]

management contracts are only temporary due to COVID-19 crisis so after this it will revert to Franchises

I'm willing to take a bet that franchises will not return.

Three weeks ago, the business case for every single franchise in the country was shot through. Who knows how long it will take for passenger revenues to return to what they were? The DfT will never have the resources to renegotiate franchise agreements with all the train operators, which is what would be needed in the circumstances. If the government could somehow insist the TOCs continue with their current franchise agreements, the TOCs would simply run down their bonds and then hand the keys back.

Franchising was dying anyway - it never really recovered from the WCML debacle in 2012. The Williams review was likely to have sounded the death knell for it in any case but the lockdown did it first. We won't be seeing franchising again. We might see private companies being paid some sort of management fee to run trains, but we won't see franchising i.e. private companies agreeing a subsidy/premium with DfT and then taking on revenue risk and making actual decisions on services.

 

[The Planner]

The really important thing that should be happening right now is proper consultation and planning on how best to use the freed up capacity on the WCML. This is vital as it's one of the biggest reasons for building HS2. Unfortunately the DfT are content to give outline ideas about the revised service and wait until just before HS2 opens to work out the detail. That can't wait; it needs to happen now.

I would like to see the current Avanti service given over to a regular interval semi-fast service on the current fast lines. Every train should stop at Watford, MK and Rugby. There's no need for non-stop services. They will just eat up capacity.

It has been happening for a long time, you just don't hear about it as nothing is decided.

 

[Hb06_]

I don't really understand why they are not putting an HS2 station around Northamptonshire. There is no HS2 station in Milton Keynes either, which would be a perfect point to put one. The closest HS2 station to MKC is Birmingham Interchange, and it takes 35 mins to get to Euston on the WCML, so HS2 isn't really gonna help Northamptonshire and the surrounding counties.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don't really understand why they are not putting an HS2 station around Northamptonshire. There is no HS2 station in Milton Keynes either, which would be a perfect point to put one. The closest HS2 station to MKC is Birmingham Interchange, and it takes 35 mins to get to Euston on the WCML, so HS2 isn't really gonna help Northamptonshire and the surrounding counties.

It will help MK and the surrounding counties through having the possibility of a greater frequency of services per hour than they enjoy today. A nice uplift on an already very good frequency and capacity.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't really understand why they are not putting an HS2 station around Northamptonshire. There is no HS2 station in Milton Keynes either, which would be a perfect point to put one. The closest HS2 station to MKC is Birmingham Interchange, and it takes 35 mins to get to Euston on the WCML, so HS2 isn't really gonna help Northamptonshire and the surrounding counties.

It doesn't go near MKC plus the idea is to take the fast services out of the existing line and put them on HS2. I expect that all services will stop at MKC and more trains to Northampton.

Here is the business case which says more services will call at MKC and Northampton.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879445/full-business-case-hs2-phase-one.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will help MK and the surrounding counties through having the possibility of a greater frequency of services per hour than they enjoy today. A nice uplift on an already very good frequency and capacity.

Agreed. MK is a very big part of the business case for it - to allow it to become a key node on the classic WCML. Think of it as a pair of "super-fast" lines added to the WCML.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Here is the map post Phase one according to the business case:







Thats 25tph out of Euston of which 4tph will be Avanti West Coast, 4 Overground, 17 LNWR trains per hour in the peak plus 17-18tph on HS2

 

[irish_rail]

Here is the map post Phase one according to the business case:

View attachment 76686

View attachment 76687

View attachment 76688

So according to this Avanti will no longer be running to Liverpool!? Crikey . The WCML really is going to look very different if hs2 ever happens.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So according to this Avanti will no longer be running to Liverpool!? Crikey . The WCML really is going to look very different if hs2 ever happens.

Yes, they will - on HS2!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yes, they will - on HS2!

Correct, though LNWR will keep its service via Birmingham

 

[si404]

So according to this Avanti will no longer be running to Liverpool!?

It will, just not via the WCML. 2tph (one splitting at Crewe and with the other portion going to Lancaster).