Avanti West Coast New Stock - Hitachi chosen

[43096]

Why does Avanti want to eviscerate the Pendolino by removing the seats to replace them with ironing boards? Those will be the last comfortable IC seats left. Why not take advantage of having trains that were built before ridiculous PRM compliance that demands an overly uncomfortable seat?

Pendolinos have abysmal seats in standard class already. Let's see if they fit something even more rubbish instead...

 

[RailWonderer]

Pendolinos have abysmal seats in standard class already. Let's see if they fit something even more rubbish instead...

Pendolino seats themselves are comfortable, just slightly too narrow, it's more the legroom that is poor in the airline seats and the bay seats that are cramped. The whole chassis is too high because of the tilt mechanism below, and the sole bar diameter means a narrow 2+2 was the only option for those trains.

 

[43096]

Pendolino seats themselves are comfortable.

That's your opinion. I fundamentally disagree. For me they are appallingly uncomfortable: any length of time on them gives me neck and back ache.

 

[greatvoyager]

Pendolino seats themselves are comfortable, just slightly too narrow, it's more the legroom that is poor in the airline seats and the bay seats that are cramped. The whole chassis is too high because of the tilt mechanism below, and the sole bar diameter means a narrow 2+2 was the only option for those trains.

Will the 390s be fitted with the same seats that are being used in the 805/807s?

 

[Starmill]

The claim has been made that the seats Avanti intend to use aren't currently in use on any other trains in Britain. It has also been said the ones being fitted in the Pendolino fleet are the same as the ones that the 803, 805 and 807 fleets will have.

I am afraid I don't know for sure what's true any more.

 

[greatvoyager]

The claim has been made that the seats Avanti intend to use aren't currently in use on any other trains in Britain. It has also been said the ones being fitted in the Pendolino fleet are the same as the ones that the 803, 805 and 807 fleets will have.

I am afraid I don't know for sure what's true any more.

Ah, I see. Well I hope either way that whatever they go with is comfortable.

 

[Steve14]

What I don’t get is:

- the WCML was transformed with infrastructure to facilitate the arrival of pendos and tilt voyagers
- the 80X series doesn’t tilt, which means that they won’t be able to operate at the speed of 125mph
- with that in mind, what’s the likeliness that the hitachi trains can match or keep up with pendos and voyagers timings with all that in mind?

Seems like Avanti or DfT have just jumped on the bandwagon in ordering a bunch of shiny new hitachi trains purely because every other operator seems to be doing so.

 

[Starmill]

What I don’t get is:

- the WCML was transformed with infrastructure to facilitate the arrival of pendos and tilt voyagers
- the 80X series doesn’t tilt, which means that they won’t be able to operate at the speed of 125mph
- with that in mind, what’s the likeliness that the hitachi trains can match or keep up with pendos and voyagers timings with all that in mind?

Seems like Avanti or DfT have just jumped on the bandwagon in ordering a bunch of shiny new hitachi trains purely because every other operator seems to be doing so.

Same reason TransPennine Express got rolling stock that's not capable of using EPS speeds presumably. It's expensive and gains little time.

 

[gsnedders]

What I don’t get is:

- the WCML was transformed with infrastructure to facilitate the arrival of pendos and tilt voyagers
- the 80X series doesn’t tilt, which means that they won’t be able to operate at the speed of 125mph
- with that in mind, what’s the likeliness that the hitachi trains can match or keep up with pendos and voyagers timings with all that in mind?

Seems like Avanti or DfT have just jumped on the bandwagon in ordering a bunch of shiny new hitachi trains purely because every other operator seems to be doing so.

Note that tilt was only really considered an absolute requirement for 140mph running on the WCML (and the Pendolinos have a 140mph top speed as a result of that), though the scope-reduction of the West Coast Modernisation Programme led us to only have 125mph running. There's various parts of the WCML that are expected to be cleared for 125mph running without tilt in the near future.

I also remember seeing something saying that the Super Voyagers were actually slower than Voyagers on semi-fast services because while the Super Voyagers have tilt (and can use the EPS speeds), they lost vastly more time due to their comparatively poor acceleration versus the Voyagers. (The Super Voyagers are not more powerful but are substantially heavier, so that's totally plausible.)

As a result, it's quite plausible that the 805/807 stock will actually be quicker than the Super Voyagers on the services they replace them. They will unquestionably accelerate much quicker (they have a lot more power available to them than what the Super Voyagers can produce on-board!), which will provide gains at every single stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anything going to Shrewsbury will obviously need to be a bi-mode.

I forget now, is there going to be an hourly Shrewsbury? If so that's one of the three Brums per hour - that'd probably make it add up.

Why does Avanti want to eviscerate the Pendolino by removing the seats to replace them with ironing boards? Those will be the last comfortable IC seats left. Why not take advantage of having trains that were built before ridiculous PRM compliance that demands an overly uncomfortable seat?

They are not installing ironing boards, nor are they installing Fainsa Sophias. It's a completely new design of seat which FirstGroup have submitted for certification. I've not seen one yet, but it is neither of those existing products.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a map appeared on the RockRail website for these that suggests they'll make it as far as Blackpool/Lancaster on 'peak' services

If there's going to be a shortage of accessible replacement coaches, it would seem to make sense to clear them for all the likely diesel diversionary routes and return to that approach.

 

[The Bear]

This would seem to suggest that there will be no more capability to divert via the Glasgow SW route if required then, not even for planned engineering closures.

Or for train-to-train evacuations on the northern WCML when a Pendo gets its self wrapped up in OHLE as dragging with a 57/3 with passengers on seems to have now become forbidden.....

remember seeing something saying that the Super Voyagers were actually slower than Voyagers on semi-fast services because while the Super Voyagers have tilt (and can use the EPS speeds), they lost vastly more time due to their comparatively poor acceleration versus the Voyagers. (The Super Voyagers are not more powerful but are substantially heavier, so that's totally plausible.

I hear that this difference is down to the TASS system it's self and its inability to cope with Voyagers in multiple.
I recall hearing that the maximum number of Voyager vehicles that can run in a formation in 16. Therefore no matter how long the train is the driver of a 221 must be passed the EPS speed board by 16 coach lengths before accelerating, where as the driver of a 220 can accelerate immediately.

 

[py_megapixel]

What I don’t get is:

- the WCML was transformed with infrastructure to facilitate the arrival of pendos and tilt voyagers
- the 80X series doesn’t tilt, which means that they won’t be able to operate at the speed of 125mph
- with that in mind, what’s the likeliness that the hitachi trains can match or keep up with pendos and voyagers timings with all that in mind?

Seems like Avanti or DfT have just jumped on the bandwagon in ordering a bunch of shiny new hitachi trains purely because every other operator seems to be doing so.

I think there's two things you're forgetting:

• Comparing a Pendolino to an 80x the acceleration isn't even close. You're going to regain a lot of time through the far shorter time taken to reach full speed. (With that in mind if I was in charge of the diagramming I would have the 80x allocated to routes with the most stops to gain maximum benefit from this but I am sure there are other concerns which I've not noticed)

• There are other sacrifices to be made in implementing tilt. As well as the cost, the Pendolinos and Voyagers have unusually tapered bodysides and high floors which gives them an unpleasant cramped feel. For all their flaws, the 80x interiors are actually very spacious and if it comes at the expense of a few extra minutes of travel time then I'm sure many, myself included, will be happy with that sacrifice.

I don't think tilt is as revolutionary as is often made out. If it had actually got large parts of the WCML up to 140 then maybe I'd have more faith in it, but honestly I think WCML tilt will just be another entry in a long list of failed technological endeavours on the railway.

Of course that doesn't mean there's no place for tilting trains, but I don't think they are massively significant in the UK so far.

 

[Energy]

(With that in mind if I was in charge of the diagramming I would have the 80x allocated to routes with the most stops to gain maximum benefit from this but I am sure there are other concerns which I've not noticed)

This is what they are doing, the long routes with not many stops will be Pendolino operated which can stay at high speeds throughout due to the tilt, the routes which stop more will use the 80X because of their better acceleration and the top speed doesn't matter as much as the stops are frequent enough that the high acceleration 80Xs can match the timings.

 

[James90012]

Why does Avanti want to eviscerate the Pendolino by removing the seats to replace them with ironing boards? Those will be the last comfortable IC seats left. Why not take advantage of having trains that were built before ridiculous PRM compliance that demands an overly uncomfortable seat?

I really object to this kind of post - there is zero evidence that the new seats will be 'ironing boards' - it's pure inflammatory conjecture despite it being widely covered that the plan is for these to be a new type of seat altogether.

 

[The Ham]

23xAT300s replace 21 Voyagers.
Not a great increase (though capacity will be increased).
There is some sort of additional Liverpool service calling at Parkway to cover, and extensions in North Wales.

Nor all trains are created equal though, Voyagers have about 260 seats over 5 coaches whilst the 80x's can have about 340. Wiki suggests 301 seats as such there's around (subject to actual seating capacity) 17% more capacity.

Also, again subject to actual seating capacity, it's expected that the 7 coach units will have 453 seats which broadly match the 469 seats of the 9 coach 390's

 

[James James]

I really object to this kind of post - there is zero evidence that the new seats will be 'ironing boards' - it's pure inflammatory conjecture despite it being widely covered that the plan is for these to be a new type of seat altogether.

Most new seats are effectively ironing boards, so it's probably fair to assume it's an ironing board comfort level until proven otherwise. (By ironing board I refer primarily to comfort and not necessarily appearance.)

 

[class26]

I think there's two things you're forgetting:

• Comparing a Pendolino to an 80x the acceleration isn't even close. You're going to regain a lot of time through the far shorter time taken to reach full speed. (With that in mind if I was in charge of the diagramming I would have the 80x allocated to routes with the most stops to gain maximum benefit from this but I am sure there are other concerns which I've not noticed)

• There are other sacrifices to be made in implementing tilt. As well as the cost, the Pendolinos and Voyagers have unusually tapered bodysides and high floors which gives them an unpleasant cramped feel. For all their flaws, the 80x interiors are actually very spacious and if it comes at the expense of a few extra minutes of travel time then I'm sure many, myself included, will be happy with that sacrifice.

I don't think tilt is as revolutionary as is often made out. If it had actually got large parts of the WCML up to 140 then maybe I'd have more faith in it, but honestly I think WCML tilt will just be another entry in a long list of failed technological endeavours on the railway.

Of course that doesn't mean there's no place for tilting trains, but I don't think they are massively significant in the UK so far.

Off topic but there might be a case for electrifying Plymouth - Exeter for tilt. Its rather bendy , especially between Plymouth and N Abbott. Obviously would require new stock

 

[Brissle Girl]

You don’t need to electrify to have tilt, as the Super Voyagers prove, but we should probably start a new thread in speculative ideas if we want to take that discussion any further!

 

[DB]

Most new seats are effectively ironing boards, so it's probably fair to assume it's an ironing board comfort level until proven otherwise. (By ironing board I refer primarily to comfort and not necessarily appearance.)

'Ironing boards' (I think the term was coined by Ian Walmsley in one of his Modern Railways articles) specifically refers to those Fainsa seats which curve inwards at the top, giving them the shape of ironing boards. They are normally fitted with little/no padding and found on commuter trains built in the past few years, and they are awful (although in fairness, the ones with extra padding which Northern have used on 158s / 331s / 195s are tolerable, even if they couldn't be described as great.

Apparently the seats planned for the Pendoinos (and new fleet) are of a new design, so time will tell how good they are - they'd have to be pretty bad to be worse than the current Pendolino / Voyager seats, though.

 

[irish_rail]

One Hope's that if AWC are getting a new type of seat that Firsts other franchises may also benefit, particularly London to Penzance, which is the longest trip from London possible other than Inverness and Aberdeen.

 

[py_megapixel]

One Hope's that if AWC are getting a new type of seat that Firsts other franchises may also benefit, particularly London to Penzance, which is the longest trip from London possible other than Inverness and Aberdeen.

The IET fleet was specced by, and is partially owned by, the DfT and in any case the seats are new - so I don't expect to see them being replaced by Firstgroup.
However, it seems likely that the new London to Edinburgh open access operation will get the new seats - which may have the slightly odd effect of making what is intended as the "budget" service into a more comfortable experience than LNER!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

One Hope's that if AWC are getting a new type of seat that Firsts other franchises may also benefit, particularly London to Penzance, which is the longest trip from London possible other than Inverness and Aberdeen.

Fort William would like to have a word with you...

 

[gsnedders]

The IET fleet was specced by, and is partially owned by, the DfT and in any case the seats are new - so I don't expect to see them being replaced by Firstgroup.

I mean they literally can't; it's a matter for the DfT to negotiate with Agility Trains. And when the franchisees already expressed their negative opinion to the DfT (as did Hitachi!) during the design phase, seemingly nobody can convince the DfT otherwise. GWR wanted to fit nicer seats on the 802 AIUI, but authorisation to proceed with the order from the DfT was contingent on them being the same internal spec at the IEP stock.

 

[DB]

I mean they literally can't; it's a matter for the DfT to negotiate with Agility Trains. And when the franchisees already expressed their negative opinion to the DfT (as did Hitachi!) during the design phase, seemingly nobody can convince the DfT otherwise. GWR wanted to fit nicer seats on the 802 AIUI, but authorisation to proceed with the order from the DfT was contingent on them being the same internal spec at the IEP stock.

Hence no buffets for trains from London to Penzance. It's almost as if the DfT wants to make train travel as unenticing as possible!

The East Coast sets only have buffets because Virgin/Stagecoach insisted.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Off topic but there might be a case for electrifying Plymouth - Exeter for tilt. Its rather bendy , especially between Plymouth and N Abbott. Obviously would require new stock

Class 221 tilting trains ran along that route when Virgin operated the XC franchise. There wasn't any funding from Network Rail to install TASS balises on the route, but tilt wouldn't improve timings anyway, particular as the odd tilting voyager would be sharing the route with other non tilting trains.
When the XC franchise was won by Arriva in 2007 they disabled the tilt mechanisms on the XC 221s and improved their reliability. The XC 221s have solid bars instead of the previously fitted tilting rams.

 

[py_megapixel]

I mean they literally can't; it's a matter for the DfT to negotiate with Agility Trains. And when the franchisees already expressed their negative opinion to the DfT (as did Hitachi!) during the design phase, seemingly nobody can convince the DfT otherwise. GWR wanted to fit nicer seats on the 802 AIUI, but authorisation to proceed with the order from the DfT was contingent on them being the same internal spec at the IEP stock.

I really don't understand why the DfT has been so picky. They seem to have alienated everyone (franchisees who have to sell tickets on the new trains, frontline staff who now have an extra source of passenger complaints, the passengers themselves, and enthusiasts) just in the interest of saving what I assume wouldn't be a huge amount of money on a decent seat, in the context of a train.

What I've read is that the DfT's spat with GWR was actually over the seat-covers - for some reason the DfT wasn't happy with the headrests being green on the 802s and insisted that they were grey, like the 800s.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Avanti West Coast New Stock - Hitachi chosen

People are more than welcome to create threads to discuss any other topic for which a thread doesn't always exist, as appropriate

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think there's two things you're forgetting:

• Comparing a Pendolino to an 80x the acceleration isn't even close. You're going to regain a lot of time through the far shorter time taken to reach full speed. (With that in mind if I was in charge of the diagramming I would have the 80x allocated to routes with the most stops to gain maximum benefit from this but I am sure there are other concerns which I've not noticed)
• There are other sacrifices to be made in implementing tilt. As well as the cost, the Pendolinos and Voyagers have unusually tapered bodysides and high floors which gives them an unpleasant cramped feel. For all their flaws, the 80x interiors are actually very spacious and if it comes at the expense of a few extra minutes of travel time then I'm sure many, myself included, will be happy with that sacrifice.

I don't think tilt is as revolutionary as is often made out. If it had actually got large parts of the WCML up to 140 then maybe I'd have more faith in it, but honestly I think WCML tilt will just be another entry in a long list of failed technological endeavours on the railway.
Of course that doesn't mean there's no place for tilting trains, but I don't think they are massively significant in the UK so far.

We still don't know how much of the WCML is fit for 125mph without tilt.
The tilt operation on the WCML is an extremely effective way to increase line speeds from 110mph to 125mph.
Those who know say the timetable on the WCML south of Rugby would not work without tilt.
Neither 390s nor tilting 221s are slouches, even if they do not match 80x (on electric).
I have yet to see the journey times planned for 805s on Euston-Chester services.
They usually make 1 stop at Milton Keynes, so there's not much scope for faster acceleration to 110mph between stops on the WCML.
They might even be slower than 221s on diesel between Crewe and Chester (mostly 90mph), with poorer acceleration.

 

[The Chimaera]

We still don't know how much of the WCML is fit for 125mph without tilt.
The tilt operation on the WCML is an extremely effective way to increase line speeds from 110mph to 125mph.
Those who know say the timetable on the WCML south of Rugby would not work without tilt.
Neither 390s nor tilting 221s are slouches, even if they do not match 80x (on electric).
I have yet to see the journey times planned for 805s on Euston-Chester services.
They usually make 1 stop at Milton Keynes, so there's not much scope for faster acceleration to 110mph between stops on the WCML.
They might even be slower than 221s on diesel between Crewe and Chester (mostly 90mph), with poorer acceleration.

The WCML south of Weaver Jn is actually very straight and easily able to support 125 Non Tilt, there are a few places that will need lower speeds through due to curvature but with a quick accelerating train such as the 800 that shouldn't be a problem. Two area's are already 125 without tilt, Rugby - Coventry and Wolves - Stafford these are actually signed as 125 HST, which encompasses Voyagers but not Pendolino's.
Tilt only comes into its own north of Preston, south of there performance gains are pretty marginal. Remember tilt was specified because of 140mph running but as that never happened the gains attributed to it were reduced.