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Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

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Djgr

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Hmmm. I thought everyone was trying to simplify the fares structure, whilst this adds yet more complexity.
 
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Clip

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Hmmm. I thought everyone was trying to simplify the fares structure, whilst this adds yet more complexity.
I'm not sure adding another class of travel is adding complexity into the system.

It seems pretty straightforward 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I mean that's what the railway used to have isn't it? Did you go against it then?
 

takno

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Hmmm. I thought everyone was trying to simplify the fares structure, whilst this adds yet more complexity.
Well, yes and no. Everybody wants to simplify the fares structure for normal punters. Business people want a first class product with a misleading description including the word standard, in order to get around petty travel cost limitations.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, yes and no. Everybody wants to simplify the fares structure for normal punters. Business people want a first class product with a misleading description including the word standard, in order to get around petty travel cost limitations.

That's not the only element of it, as companies will soon wise up to that particular piece of expenses fraud. What is more important is ease of self-upgrading.
 

Mikey C

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I'm only me, but I usually travel First Class and I never use the First Class lounges. If I have time to kill at Euston I go to the Doric Arch and pay for a pint of ESB and find myself a comfy chair.

Maybe I should add that, although I've not been to the Euston lounge for ten years or more now, I was originally put off because it was busy and scruffy and noisy. I just didn't see the point then, nor do I today. But some people like them, that's fine, but I'm not interested.

On the train I would prefer better food that I pay for rather than the free food, although the morning breakfast service is OK I would prefer something better in the evenings and wouldn't mind paying extra for it.
I don't go First Class very often, but I'm not bothered by lounge access. In the morning I don't arrive early enough to make it worthwhile, in the evening I'd rather wait in the pub!

It's not like flying where you have to check in really early and thus can expect to have an hour to kill
 

Wolfie

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I wonder if Network Rail could make money out of offering their own paid-for lounge facility?
They might fall foul of the wrath of their food and drink tenants who pay vast rents for outlets at stations...
 

Scotrail314209

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I think a proper trial should be carried out on ALL routes once it is non essential, so they are able to target it to everywhere on their network and see how well it does.

Trialling it between Euston and Wolverhampton is useless as a majority of passengers make journeys to points north of Wolverhampton or via other routes.
 

py_megapixel

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The name "Standard Premium" did surprise me a bit. They could have called it "First Lite" or something. To the passenger that always travels standard, I imagine 'Standard Premium' sounds like 'Standard, but slightly upgraded and more expensive'. By pitching it as a downgraded version of First instead, they give the impression of 'Get the posh First Class experience for cheap', which I think is more likely to attract impulse upgrades and leisure travellers who want to treat themselves to a bit of luxury without feeling guilt about their spending - which seems to be the market they're trying to tap into.
 

Bletchleyite

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The name "Standard Premium" did surprise me a bit. They could have called it "First Lite" or something. To the passenger that always travels standard, I imagine 'Standard Premium' sounds like 'Standard, but slightly upgraded and more expensive'. By pitching it as a downgraded version of First instead, they give the impression of 'Get the posh First Class experience for cheap', which I think is more likely to attract impulse upgrades and leisure travellers who want to treat themselves to a bit of luxury without feeling guilt about their spending - which seems to be the market they're trying to tap into.

The reason for calling it that is exactly the same reason Eurostar called theirs "Standard Premier" - so people can sneak it past "no First Class" expenses policies.
 

ricoblade

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Careful, you'll get lynched by the East Coast crowd. We love our at-seat service and hot breakfasts/dinners!
I'm part of the East Coast crowd and really wouldn't miss it. It amazes me that through all the franchise changes over the years (from GNER onwards) the coffee tastes exactly the same (and not very good). I imagine there are great big vats of it brewing away for years somewhere that it all gets decanted from.
 

Journeyman

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The reason for calling it that is exactly the same reason Eurostar called theirs "Standard Premier" - so people can sneak it past "no First Class" expenses policies.
Yup. LNER offered a Scottish Executive ticket (not sure if they still do) that was a "complimentary first class upgrade" - everything on it said Standard, even the reservation coupon, for that very reason. Worked a treat for me expenses-wise.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yup. LNER offered a Scottish Executive ticket (not sure if they still do) that was a "complimentary first class upgrade" - everything on it said Standard, even the reservation coupon, for that very reason. Worked a treat for me expenses-wise.

Depends I guess on your management. If someone tried that on with me I'd be more angry with them than if they just put a First Class ticket in out of policy and came up with a decent justification. Defrauding your employer isn't a great way to keep your job.

Not sure how well it'll work now anyway, as a good many employers these days require the cheapest ticket to be purchased, either via a corporate travel system that enforces that or sometimes screenshotting to show that you did choose the cheapest. Long gone are the days of being entitled to anything up to the Anytime Return.
 

jfollows

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My last real employer was part of the UK Civil Service, and was paranoid about the Daily Mail exposing it purchasing rail tickets which said "First" on them for its staff.
So I bought a Standard Open Return, then paid myself for the upgrade to First Class on the train. Then claimed 20% of the upgrade cost back through my tax return (I wasn't paid enough for it to be 40%).
All very silly. Then I left and set up my own company and the rules on expenses were much more sensible (I was the only employee).

If I were still working (for someone else) I could see that I could justify and claim something like "Standard Premier" if I needed to work on the train as well, for example in preparation for the day's meeting, but that normally this wouldn't be necessary and I'd not attempt to claim it. It was made explicitly clear that we were not to buy tickets called "First" under any circumstances.
 
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Journeyman

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Depends I guess on your management. If someone tried that on with me I'd be more angry with them than if they just put a First Class ticket in out of policy and came up with a decent justification. Defrauding your employer isn't a great way to keep your job.

Not sure how well it'll work now anyway, as a good many employers these days require the cheapest ticket to be purchased, either via a corporate travel system that enforces that or sometimes screenshotting to show that you did choose the cheapest. Long gone are the days of being entitled to anything up to the Anytime Return.
It's not fraud. The tickets were cheaper than Standard Anytime ones, and no-one would have batted an eyelid if I'd claimed for one of those.

It was widely known within the company that most people would work this loophole to their advantage when they could, and as long as you didn't blatantly take the mick, it was fine.

On quite a few occasions, I've claimed for Standard and upgraded to first out of my own pocket as well.
 

takno

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Depends I guess on your management. If someone tried that on with me I'd be more angry with them than if they just put a First Class ticket in out of policy and came up with a decent justification. Defrauding your employer isn't a great way to keep your job.

Not sure how well it'll work now anyway, as a good many employers these days require the cheapest ticket to be purchased, either via a corporate travel system that enforces that or sometimes screenshotting to show that you did choose the cheapest. Long gone are the days of being entitled to anything up to the Anytime Return.
Of course one of the joys of not being a manager in a company that's had all the joy squeezed out of it by pointless bean-counters, is that I can offer my staff a comfortable travel experience, get some work out of them on the ride, and not have them permanently worried that they've transgressed a petty rule by not spending half an hour of their expensive time saving 5 minutes worth of time off the fate.
 

Aictos

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Pretty much exactly how I see it. Indeed, it's how I believe all First Class should be. If you want food, buy it - as easyJet and Ryanair have demonstrated (and now BA on short-haul) you can have a much better range if you only have to cater for a smaller number of people wanting it. I'd concede to free tea, coffee and water, though, as most people will enjoy one of those.
BA have dropped the partnership with M & S but it is hit and miss to get any complementary refreshments on BA short haul. Least with KLM you get a drink, crisps and packet of biscuits or pretzels.
 

Bletchleyite

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BA have dropped the partnership with M & S but it is hit and miss to get any complementary refreshments on BA short haul. Least with KLM you get a drink, crisps and packet of biscuits or pretzels.

I'd rather pay for more if I want it than have a rubbish offering (tiny cup of coffee, pathetic packet of pretzels) free. The low cost airlines (and European railway 1st class) have this right in my book.

You can certainly still provide a proper First Class service - serve stuff from the buffet on proper crockery and in a proper china cup for passengers in 1st.
 

Aictos

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I'd rather pay for more if I want it than have a rubbish offering (tiny cup of coffee, pathetic packet of pretzels) free.
That's up to you but the fact that BA has had to revise their catering post Covid19 says it all.

Personally I'm happy with a quieter area and a seat that gives me more leg room.
 

Aictos

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What it says is that the approach doesn't work in the context of COVID-19, not that it won't work later.
Anyway, I hope LNER follow suit with the Advanti WC proposal because it's a damn good idea.
 

YorksLad12

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I'm part of the East Coast crowd and really wouldn't miss it. It amazes me that through all the franchise changes over the years (from GNER onwards) the coffee tastes exactly the same (and not very good). I imagine there are great big vats of it brewing away for years somewhere that it all gets decanted from.
I fear you may be correct, although I am now a dedicated tea drinker. Always bugged me that you get a decent Yorkshire Tea in standard but Fairtrade in First. On the general point though, if GNER hadn't maintained the First Class dining options we probably wouldn't have them now (and they have been cut back greatly over the years). I've mentioned elsewhere that I had three options for a Leeds-Edinburgh trip last January; I chose to change at York to travel First with LNER than in First with either XC or TPE.
Anyway, I hope LNER follow suit with the Advanti WC proposal because it's a damn good idea.
See, now I don't. It doesn't need an extra class introducing, it need a Weekday First option (which East Coast/LNER do/did, by invitation). What we have now is Seatfrog; first time I used that I won the auction and found myself booked into a table of four, all of which were Seatfrog seats from Leeds (but I was the only winner...).

Pitching up at the station, looking at the loading graphic on the monitor, upgrading for a set fee if space is available in First (which it almost always is) - much easier.
 

SteveM70

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Depends I guess on your management. If someone tried that on with me I'd be more angry with them than if they just put a First Class ticket in out of policy and came up with a decent justification. Defrauding your employer isn't a great way to keep your job.

Not sure how well it'll work now anyway, as a good many employers these days require the cheapest ticket to be purchased, either via a corporate travel system that enforces that or sometimes screenshotting to show that you did choose the cheapest. Long gone are the days of being entitled to anything up to the Anytime Return.

It’d go down a treat with MPs though
 

Wolfie

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It’d go down a treat with MPs though
MPs are allowed to travel first class if it's cheaper than Standard (not quite sure what, if any, restrictions on ticket types apply). Civil Servants are not. Do as we say, not as we do....
 

jfollows

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MPs are allowed to travel first class if it's cheaper than Standard (not quite sure what, if any, restrictions on ticket types apply). Civil Servants are not. Do as we say, not as we do....
According to https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-news/mp-first-class-train-travel-13616835, "MPs are still allowed to travel first-class if the cost of the ticket is cheaper than the standard-class ‘walk-on’ fare.", so presumably any kind of First Class advance ticket. However their expenses do tend to get reported at the individual level, so some of them might feel it inappropriate to travel First Class given that their constituents will get to know about it.

EDIT - better source of information is https://www.theipsa.org.uk/media/185688/scheme-2020-21.pdf

"9.13 For journeys by public transport, MPs may buy a ticket of any class but (except where paragraph 9.14 applies) reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an economy class ticket available at the time of booking. In the case of air travel, ‘economy’ includes ‘flexible economy’.
9.14 For journeys made by rail, reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an ‘anytime standard open’ ticket for the journey prevalent at the time of the claim."

"Information on standard open fares is included in the online expenses system, which will automatically check the cost of the relevant rail journey."

When I was a Civil Servant, and I resigned in April 2015, we were told not to buy any sort of First Class ticket, but conversely the cost of the ticket wasn't a factor. So, as I said earlier, I usually bought an Open Standard Return and upgraded to First Class on the train at my own expense.
 

Kite159

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According to https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-news/mp-first-class-train-travel-13616835, "MPs are still allowed to travel first-class if the cost of the ticket is cheaper than the standard-class ‘walk-on’ fare.", so presumably any kind of First Class advance ticket. However their expenses do tend to get reported at the individual level, so some of them might feel it inappropriate to travel First Class given that their constituents will get to know about it.

EDIT - better source of information is https://www.theipsa.org.uk/media/185688/scheme-2020-21.pdf

"9.13 For journeys by public transport, MPs may buy a ticket of any class but (except where paragraph 9.14 applies) reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an economy class ticket available at the time of booking. In the case of air travel, ‘economy’ includes ‘flexible economy’.
9.14 For journeys made by rail, reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an ‘anytime standard open’ ticket for the journey prevalent at the time of the claim."

"Information on standard open fares is included in the online expenses system, which will automatically check the cost of the relevant rail journey."

When I was a Civil Servant, and I resigned in April 2015, we were told not to buy any sort of First Class ticket, but conversely the cost of the ticket wasn't a factor. So, as I said earlier, I usually bought an Open Standard Return and upgraded to First Class on the train at my own expense.

There used to be something like the "Scottish Executive" ticket on London - Edinburgh flows, priced the same as 1st class but was standard class on the system to bypass some expenses guidelines, as it came with a free upgrade to 1st.
 

Bletchleyite

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When I was a Civil Servant, and I resigned in April 2015, we were told not to buy any sort of First Class ticket, but conversely the cost of the ticket wasn't a factor. So, as I said earlier, I usually bought an Open Standard Return and upgraded to First Class on the train at my own expense.

This of course is one key purpose of this idea - allow that to happen weekdays as well as weekends (I've done exactly that for weekend work journeys before) and make it affordable for people paying for it themselves.
 

jfollows

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This of course is one key purpose of this idea - allow that to happen weekdays as well as weekends (I've done exactly that for weekend work journeys before) and make it affordable for people paying for it themselves.
Plus you can claim back your marginal rate of tax on the extra amount paid (if it's not reimbursed by your employer, that is, but by calling it "Standard" it may be), which was 40% for me when I worked for IBM until 2008, following which as a Civil Servant it was only 20% because I took a pay cut for a better job!
 

Wolfie

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According to https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-news/mp-first-class-train-travel-13616835, "MPs are still allowed to travel first-class if the cost of the ticket is cheaper than the standard-class ‘walk-on’ fare.", so presumably any kind of First Class advance ticket. However their expenses do tend to get reported at the individual level, so some of them might feel it inappropriate to travel First Class given that their constituents will get to know about it.

EDIT - better source of information is https://www.theipsa.org.uk/media/185688/scheme-2020-21.pdf

"9.13 For journeys by public transport, MPs may buy a ticket of any class but (except where paragraph 9.14 applies) reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an economy class ticket available at the time of booking. In the case of air travel, ‘economy’ includes ‘flexible economy’.
9.14 For journeys made by rail, reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an ‘anytime standard open’ ticket for the journey prevalent at the time of the claim."

"Information on standard open fares is included in the online expenses system, which will automatically check the cost of the relevant rail journey."

When I was a Civil Servant, and I resigned in April 2015, we were told not to buy any sort of First Class ticket, but conversely the cost of the ticket wasn't a factor. So, as I said earlier, I usually bought an Open Standard Return and upgraded to First Class on the train at my own expense.
I am still a Civil Servant. They are increasingly pushing hard on the use of Advanced tickets (at least one way if the time of end of business is uncertain).

Edited to add: Given half a chance they would ask people to book an Advanced ticket on the latest feasible return train too. The fact that they have hacked both travelling time and subsistence to pieces too so that you wouldn't get paid for any out of hours travel and probably couldn't even buy a coffee at their expense while waiting means that gets a very dry and dusty response....
 
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