Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Ianno87]

The whole pricing structure for the railways is wrong, first class really would be better these days as a supplement to the standard class fare where the difference everybody pays is the same regardless of whether they're on a dirt cheap AP or something which reflects the true cost of the journey.

Why? It's market driven. Clearly a business traveller arriving at London in the morning peak is prepared to pay a higher premium than an off-peak leisure traveller.

A standard price either undercharges people prepared to pay more, or prevents "upselling" when capacity is available to do so.

 

[YorksLad12]

The whole pricing structure for the railways is wrong, first class really would be better these days as a supplement to the standard class fare where the difference everybody pays is the same regardless of whether they're on a dirt cheap AP or something which reflects the true cost of the journey.

I have long been in favour of a Weekday First equivalent to Weekend First. But cheaper (on LNER).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have long been in favour of a Weekday First equivalent to Weekend First. But cheaper (on LNER).

Is that not basically what this is?

 

[YorksLad12]

I have long been in favour of a Weekday First equivalent to Weekend First. But cheaper (on LNER).

Is that not basically what this is?

Perhaps, but it's not universal. Weekend First is a feature of most - if not all - long-distance TOCs but there's no weekday equivalent. LNER did sometimes randomly offer me a First Class upgrade, by email; I did this once and the ticket said it was a Weekday First upgrade. But I've often been in a very busy Standard coach/carriage, knowing from the platform displays when I set off that First was quiet - but with no way to upgrade without buying a whole new ticket.

 

[Vespa]

People who have paid more than a few quid. Unfortunately advance purchase tickets have created a race to the bottom and have utterly devalued the service to the point that people don't know how much it really costs anymore. Take a busy intercity route I work on where if somebody doesn't have a ticket and I charge them the cheapest single ticket I usually get asked "Why are you charging me £15 when it's £3 on the next train?".

The whole pricing structure for the railways is wrong, first class really would be better these days as a supplement to the standard class fare where the difference everybody pays is the same regardless of whether they're on a dirt cheap AP or something which reflects the true cost of the journey.

What you really mean is, "snobbery" the "wrong class of person" sharing the same carriage as you.

So if I a rail enthusiast buy an AP with disabled discount railcard because it was on offer and I want to treat myself, does that make me the "wrong class of person" ?

 

[Journeyman]

What you really mean is, "snobbery" the "wrong class of person" sharing the same carriage as you.

So if I a rail enthusiast buy an AP with disabled discount railcard because it was on offer and I want to treat myself, does that make me the "wrong class of person" ?

In this case, I think it does!

It's a bit crazy. I don't care how much other people have paid for their tickets. As long as I'm confident I'm getting a reasonable deal, I'm happy.

 

[Fuzzytop]

If this is rolled out more widely, at certain times won't there be a really negligible difference between Standard Premium and full First, just the at-seat service and lounge access?

Compared of course with Eurostar where Business Premier nets you significantly more flexibility and shorter check-in times in addition to the improved at-seat offering.

If this is the case, perhaps Standard Premium could be a step towards First being phased out, at least from some services?

 

[Steddenm]

Perhaps, but it's not universal. Weekend First is a feature of most - if not all - long-distance TOCs but there's no weekday equivalent. LNER did sometimes randomly offer me a First Class upgrade, by email; I did this once and the ticket said it was a Weekday First upgrade. But I've often been in a very busy Standard coach/carriage, knowing from the platform displays when I set off that First was quiet - but with no way to upgrade without buying a whole new ticket.

Have you tried Seatfrog? They can upgrade you on LNER and quite cheap for on the day travel. Or upgrade your ticket from Standard to First on board.

 

[takno]

Have you tried Seatfrog? They can upgrade you on LNER and quite cheap for on the day travel. Or upgrade your ticket from Standard to First on board.

I tried it once. Was a complete pain to install, and I couldn't get it to accept my order number. In the end I decided that taking part in some kind of grim auction process made me feel cheap in a way that an unwanted first class seat wouldn't make up for anyway. There's no need for any of that - LNER should just feel the upgrades direct. I was hoping that that particular leftover from the Virgin days might have gone by now, but sadly it does seem to cling on

 

[bunnahabhain]

What you really mean is, "snobbery" the "wrong class of person" sharing the same carriage as you.

So if I a rail enthusiast buy an AP with disabled discount railcard because it was on offer and I want to treat myself, does that make me the "wrong class of person" ?

If we go back to my original post, its the loudmouths that are the issue. If you identify as a loudmouth, perhaps that does.

 

[Vespa]

If we go back to my original post, its the loudmouths that are the issue. If you identify as a loudmouth, perhaps that does.

Certainly not at all.

But going back to your original post you're a snob

But of course we are all entitled to our views and expectations, which mine is the First Class is about service level not status that even a disabled person is entitled to.

 

[Techniquest]

Certainly more dislike for the Standard Premium offering than one would expect! It sounds like a great deal, it must be said, and I'll happily try it if it's available on whatever journey I'm making.

Not worried about no free food or drink in Premium, I'd rather buy my own at the station for a decent size cup and take my own food. My tastes are very fussy, so I'd rather eat beforehand or afterwards, but maybe take some sort of decadent snack for the actual journey. If it's a long-haul affair, I'd simply stock up in a supermarket on what I like and go from there.

The better seat and some more space is what I'd upgrade for, as others have already commented. I'd not bother for a short journey, such as Crewe to Preston, but if I'm joining at Crewe for the lengthy journey to Glasgow I'd be extremely interested. Quite, this sort of offering is more appealing in an era where I'm choosing rail over air on short-haul journeys whenever possible.

 

[Mikey C]

Certainly more dislike for the Standard Premium offering than one would expect! It sounds like a great deal, it must be said, and I'll happily try it if it's available on whatever journey I'm making.

Not worried about no free food or drink in Premium, I'd rather buy my own at the station for a decent size cup and take my own food. My tastes are very fussy, so I'd rather eat beforehand or afterwards, but maybe take some sort of decadent snack for the actual journey. If it's a long-haul affair, I'd simply stock up in a supermarket on what I like and go from there.

The better seat and some more space is what I'd upgrade for, as others have already commented. I'd not bother for a short journey, such as Crewe to Preston, but if I'm joining at Crewe for the lengthy journey to Glasgow I'd be extremely interested. Quite, this sort of offering is more appealing in an era where I'm choosing rail over air on short-haul journeys whenever possible.

I'm definitely interested in this offering too. I'm happy to bring my own food and drink, whether from home or the supermarket, but would appreciate a little bit more space than in Standard on the 390s

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm definitely interested in this offering too. I'm happy to bring my own food and drink, whether from home or the supermarket, but would appreciate a little bit more space than in Standard on the 390s

Me too. I have long believed First Class should just be about the extra space, not gimmickry to justify a higher price. This is potentially made for me and if the price is right I am likely to use it a lot.

 

[Journeyman]

Me too. I have long believed First Class should just be about the extra space, not gimmickry to justify a higher price. This is potentially made for me and if the price is right I am likely to use it a lot.

I like First Class breakfasts, and would happily go for the full product there, but the rest of the time the free catering seems disappointing, and like you, the seat matters more than the food.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like First Class breakfasts, and would happily go for the full product there, but the rest of the time the free catering seems disappointing, and like you, the seat matters more than the food.

Yeah, I can see the benefit of the breakfasts, but at other times if I wanted a meal I'd rather pay for a proper one or take stuff on.

Free tea, coffee and water maybe, but not beyond that. What would be nice, though, is paid-for at seat service of buffet stuff on a proper plate as DB does.

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah, I can see the benefit of the breakfasts, but at other times if I wanted a meal I'd rather pay for a proper one or take stuff on.

Free tea, coffee and water maybe, but not beyond that. What would be nice, though, is paid-for at seat service of buffet stuff on a proper plate as DB does.

One of the few things National Express got right during their time in charge of East Coast was paid-for, decent sized at seat meals in First Class. I'd happily have that back. I had breakfast and lunch on a train from Inverness to London, and the meals were very good, in terms of quality, value and choice. The free stuff is just very poor in comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the few things National Express got right during their time in charge of East Coast was paid-for, decent sized at seat meals in First Class. I'd happily have that back. I had breakfast and lunch on a train from Inverness to London, and the meals were very good, in terms of quality, value and choice. The free stuff is just very poor in comparison.

Yeah, I'd pay over the odds for a proper meal if the journey is at a mealtime, I just don't want snacking/taster menus as it still means I have to bring something.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Me too. I have long believed First Class should just be about the extra space, not gimmickry to justify a higher price. This is potentially made for me and if the price is right I am likely to use it a lot.

The problem is though, that this is subjective. While many will agree with you, others like myself enjoy the convenience of not needing to factor in a trip to a supermarket before I travel. I also like a hot meal on board, such as the breakfast, rather than a cold Danish from the pumpkin cafe and a rather lukewarm latte. The addition of Standard Premium, without removing First Class, satisfies both markets, so that those of us who enjoy the added extras and can afford them can continue to do so in 1st, whereas the others who would rather pay only a little extra for just the seat can use the Standard Premium.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Certainly not at all.

But going back to your original post you're a snob

But of course we are all entitled to our views and expectations, which mine is the First Class is about service level not status that even a disabled person is entitled to.

Yes I am. My expectation is a quiet and relaxed atmosphere not full of hen parties on cheap tickets. If the price for that is no cheap tickets, then so be it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I am. My expectation is a quiet and relaxed atmosphere not full of hen parties on cheap tickets. If the price for that is no cheap tickets, then so be it.

Whereas if I wasn't 6' 4" and almost as broad I'd be totally happy with Standard, but I just want to pay a bit extra for a wider seat with more legroom, which is precisely what this offers me, and precisely why I think it's a great idea.

I very often do Weekend First, and I guess this is just a weekday equivalent.

I guess that's the point - segmenting the premium market so more people will pay extra to fit their circumstances.

 

[Mikey C]

The problem is though, that this is subjective. While many will agree with you, others like myself enjoy the convenience of not needing to factor in a trip to a supermarket before I travel. I also like a hot meal on board, such as the breakfast, rather than a cold Danish from the pumpkin cafe and a rather lukewarm latte. The addition of Standard Premium, without removing First Class, satisfies both markets, so that those of us who enjoy the added extras and can afford them can continue to do so in 1st, whereas the others who would rather pay only a little extra for just the seat can use the Standard Premium.

20 years ago "convenience" supermarkets didn't exist, so to get provisions you'd have to go out of your way to find a supermarket or chance a hit or miss "local" shop, but now convenience supermarkets are located at or near a large number of stations, so people are used to a quick trip to M&S/Tesco's etc before the journey

Yes, it's not hot food, but a significant number of people aren't bothered about that, enough to shift the numbers willing to pay for a hot meal on board the train, which clearly will have an effect on the economics of onboard catering

 

[Bletchleyite]

20 years ago "convenience" supermarkets didn't exist, so to get provisions you'd have to go out of your way to find a supermarket or chance a hit or miss "local" shop, but now convenience supermarkets are located at or near a large number of stations, so people are used to a quick trip to M&S/Tesco's etc before the journey

Yes, it's not hot food, but a significant number of people aren't bothered about that, enough to shift the numbers willing to pay for a hot meal on board the train, which clearly will have an effect on the economics of onboard catering

I think M&S Food has hugely shifted the market - cold food used to be a poor relation, curling sandwiches or whatever. The range is now superb and the quality up there too. The lack of one at a few major stations (most notably Bristol TM which has very little else nearby) is an annoyance, much more so than anything on board.

The Sainsbury's at Euston does (or did) hot food too - curry or chilli if I recall - though that might be less popular with other passengers I've certainly partaken in the past.

 

[Skie]

One benefit of food as a “freebie” of First is for businesses. I can arrange an event with a lunchtime meal, and have my staff fed and watered on the train there and the train home without them needing to claim allowances. Often the flat cost of the ticket is cheaper than standard due to discounts, but when it’s not then it’s still commonly cheaper than standard ticket + breakfast + dinner expense claims. Saves a lot of time in admin too, though that is much harder to quantify as a direct saving.

Plus it keeps everyone together. Having had to herd large groups of supposed adults numerous times, it is much easier to lead everyone to the lounge and keep them there until departure, distracted by the endless hot drinks, snacks and danishes. Expecting them to all to meet up on time after they have gone and got a meal deal or well and truly sozzled in the nearest extortionate station pub is a fruitless experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One benefit of food as a “freebie” of First is for businesses. I can arrange an event with a lunchtime meal, and have my staff fed and watered on the train there and the train home without them needing to claim allowances. Often the flat cost of the ticket is cheaper than standard due to discounts, but when it’s not then it’s still commonly cheaper than standard ticket + breakfast + dinner expense claims. Saves a lot of time in admin too, though that is much harder to quantify as a direct saving.

Plus it keeps everyone together. Having had to herd large groups of supposed adults numerous times, it is much easier to lead everyone to the lounge and keep them there until departure, distracted by the endless hot drinks, snacks and danishes. Expecting them to all to meet up on time after they have gone and got a meal deal or well and truly sozzled in the nearest extortionate station pub is a fruitless experience.

I think one thing it's intended to aim at is business travellers who get food on the train on the way home from a business-hours day trip, which would, if purchased and expensed separately, be a taxable benefit.

 

[YorksLad12]

Have you tried Seatfrog? They can upgrade you on LNER and quite cheap for on the day travel. Or upgrade your ticket from Standard to First on board.

I have, and I dislike it. You can only 'win' one seat per service/auction, even though the first time I used it i was booked into a table of four! Depending on the time of day, if the upgrade is more than £15 I'll not bother. As with eBay, the trick is to make you bid 30 seconds before the auction closes.

Weekday First would be a lot easier and wouldn't need to rely on a third party, who often can't answer why an auction has been pulled before it opens or even once it opens (which is where the "30 seconds" thing falls down; I once got an upgrade for £11 because mine was the highest bid when the auction was closed early by LNER). There are no on-board upgrades during the week, unless you have an email from LNER offering you one - usually for the difference you would have paid in the first place.

 

[Purple Orange]

The more I look at Standard Premium, the more I see this as the future of First Class. In fact Standard Premium is more ‘First Class’ than the First Class offering on TGV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more I look at Standard Premium, the more I see this as the future of First Class. In fact Standard Premium is more ‘First Class’ than the First Class offering on TGV.

In what way? TGV 1st is 2+1, which is the main distinguishing feature of 1st on an IC service. I do agree Pendolino 1st is better than any First Class SNCF have to offer, though, it really is very good.

Yes, I would like to see 1st being all like that - but it is a bit "back to the future" - lots of freebies were a post-privatisation thing, before that it tended just to be tea, coffee and the likes. I also prefer paid catering on short-haul air - it can be better (in terms of choice, quality *and* quantity) because you don't need enough for everyone, and you only pay for it if you want it.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, I would like to see 1st being all like that - but it is a bit "back to the future" - lots of freebies were a post-privatisation thing, before that it tended just to be tea, coffee and the likes. I also prefer paid catering on short-haul air - it can be better (in terms of choice, quality *and* quantity) because you don't need enough for everyone, and you only pay for it if you want it.

Yes, it does strike me that a better solution might have been to drop the free meals from the first class offering, relegating the free service to drinks and possibly light snacks only; reduce the relative price of first class slightly, and focus on producing a high-quality and reasonably priced paid meal offering available to all passengers regardless of ticket types.

For First Class passengers who did take advantage of the free meals, it would work out at most slightly more expensive overall
For First Class passengers who weren't bothered about the free meals, it would be slightly cheaper
For First Class passengers who were only there for the free meals and not bothered about the better seating, it would be substantially cheaper
For Standard Class passengers who were previously unsatisfied with the meal offering, it would be a huge improvement.

Sounds like pretty much a win-win.

 

[paul1609]

Surely upgrades only make sense if you are using spare capacity that at other times is fully utilised. if you no longer need the capacity why not change the coaches to standard? The fares from the extra seats must outwieght any upgrades. Has not the time come for the ending of first class on all routes it would be much more energy efficient to have all standard class trains on all routes.