Avanti West Coast - Three classes of travel to be introduced

[Bletchleyite]

knowing First group, I wouldn’t expect much first class. Such a shame as I prefer an empty seat opposite me and there’s usually plenty of room. Such a difference from everyone cramped in Standard class

Single seats on the 1 side are the best solution for that. You don't, of course, have the right to an empty seat opposite in 1st, the fact that you do often get that on Pendolinos at present shows that either there is gross overprovision or the fares are too high.

Yes, I'd expect that to be the distribution on the 7 car sets. On the 5s probably the same layout as GWR with the end car being "actual 1st" and half the adjacent coach as "PE".

 

[Jozhua]

I'd like to see some of the slower London trains make their way to Manchester, I believe it's called LNWR now?

Kind of strange Liverpool has a connection with them but Manchester doesn't...

This would be better than the insanity of 3+2 in a pandelino.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to see some of the slower London trains make their way to Manchester, I believe it's called LNWR now?

Kind of strange Liverpool has a connection with them but Manchester doesn't...

The Liverpool services weren't an expansion, they were simply joining up two services that already existed across Birmingham.

This would be better than the insanity of 3+2 in a pandelino.

This was fake and the Pendolinos will not be getting 3+2. By comparison it's likely you will get 3+2 on a 350/2 on that route!

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed - wasn't intending to imply anything, just pointing it out for reference. And, of course, there is proven popularity of cheap services with 3+2 (well, often 3+2 or half 3+2) seating on InterCity services on the WCML anyway, thanks to LNWR.

Though personally they are more like Inter-Regional trains than InterCity in my view. Even then, I'm not sure they warrant 2+3 seating to be fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though personally they are more like Inter-Regional trains than InterCity in my view. Even then, I'm not sure they warrant 2+3 seating to be fair.

LNR? They're regional expresses, and the 3+2 is because of the volume of London commuters.

 

[Gareth]

I'd like to see some of the slower London trains make their way to Manchester, I believe it's called LNWR now?

Kind of strange Liverpool has a connection with them but Manchester doesn't...

We'll trade you one for one of Manchester's XC services. Bristol or the south coast; either's good.

 

[hexagon789]

LNR? They're regional expresses, and the 3+2 is because of the volume of London commuters.

I suppose, anyway getting off topic a bit now, so I'll say no more about LNR

 

[Jozhua]

We'll trade you one for one of Manchester's XC services. Bristol or the south coast; either's good.

Sounds good, XC is trash though be careful what you wish for

 

[Clayton]

Even more complicated fares? Silly

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even more complicated fares? Silly

If it's just done as a simple upgrade a la Weekend First that's not really complicating much.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Silver Standard didn't work, so I'd say Premium Standard isn't going to work either. I don't see how you'd price it, especially on trains with a high proportion of business travellers who buy the most expensive Anytime tickets.

I'd have said Scum Class would have more chance of success

 

[Bletchleyite]

Silver Standard didn't work, so I'd say Premium Standard isn't going to work either. I don't see how you'd price it, especially on trains with a high proportion of business travellers who buy the most expensive Anytime tickets.

I'd have said Scum Class would have more chance of success

Silver Standard was in a different time, though. I've long thought the future of First Class is leisure travel and self-upgrading, and those passengers aren't as interested in paying a small fortune with an inclusive meal - that used to work for business travellers because it removed tax implications of paying for an evening meal on a trip where you're returning home that day (and made expense claims easier).

I can't see why in a million years I'd pay an upgrade for the same Standard seat but freebies - I can just buy the freebies myself and have far more choice of what to buy and where from. But I will pay a reasonable[1] upgrade[2] price for "European style First Class" i.e. just a bigger seat and nothing else. Maybe tea/coffee/iced tap water as those cost next to nowt to provide (hence why MML provided them in both classes), but I really don't mind buying them.

I could almost envisage a situation where "full" First Class actually went away and we return to the land of common sense. What Avanti are doing is basically a "real life" survey.

And of course it's working for Eurostar...

[1] One that tallies with the ratio of First Class to Standard seats in a coach, in other words.

[2] It being available as an upgrade is key for self-upgraders travelling on business - many businesses won't allow the "faff" of people booking First and trying to work out how to offset the difference against expenses - I upgraded myself on work travel in Switzerland a lot more than I do at home on weekdays because I can just get a "Klassenwechsel" from the ticket machine! It didn't take long for sleasyJet to work this out - even if your employer will only book the basic fare you can at check-in add premium seats etc on yourself.

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine on some peak time services where First Class is very busy at the moment, the Premium Economy area won't happen, with the coach normally reserved for PE turned back over to 1st class with food service.

 

[gg1]

Silver Standard didn't work, so I'd say Premium Standard isn't going to work either. I don't see how you'd price it, especially on trains with a high proportion of business travellers who buy the most expensive Anytime tickets.

Silver standard existed in the days before the entirity of the public sector and many private companies placed a strict 'standard class only' rule on expensed rail travel. It wasn't that long ago that first class was the norm for staff in relatively senior positions (ie those most likely to travel medium-long distances on business), that's a significant potential market for reasonably priced on train upgrades.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Silver standard existed in the days before the entirity of the public sector and many private companies placed a strict 'standard class only' rule on expensed rail travel. It wasn't that long ago that first class was the norm for staff in relatively senior positions (ie those most likely to travel medium-long distances on business), that's a significant potential market for reasonably priced on train upgrades.

Silver Standard wasn't an upgrade product per-se anyway, it was just a dedicated coach for Standard Open ticket holders travelling when Savers were valid (which included the whole evening back then). It presumably won't have existed on morning peak services to London because everyone was using a Standard Open (unless there were some Apexes?). In a similar vein, VT have long offered free Weekend First to Anytime ticket holders travelling on the weekend, but I don't know if Avanti are continuing that.

Edit: apparently it was available in the morning peak...what tickets were valid then that weren't Standard and First Opens?

 

[Tetchytyke]

that's a significant potential market for reasonably priced on train upgrades.

Would on-train upgrades fit in with modern yield management? I'm not so sure. Perhaps off-peak it will, as with Weekend First, but it seems a lot of faff to achieve what is already achieved with competitively priced first class advances off-peak.

Peak? I really don't see it. PE will surely devalue first class fares- why pay £600 first when PE is £400 for substantially the same product- unless there is a dramatic improvement in first class accommodation.

Eurostar's model, where you only get flexibility with the top ticket, surely won't work domestically, where advances are better for TOCs than the vagaries of ORCATS. Keeping first purely for First Anytime ticket holders surely can't work?

But then, I've been wrong before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eurostar's model, where you only get flexibility with the top ticket, surely won't work domestically, where advances are better for TOCs than the vagaries of ORCATS. Keeping first purely for First Anytime ticket holders surely can't work?

That's what I'd expect to happen (that or First Anytime plus some Advances that are only a little cheaper), with only PE offered at the weekend.

I just can't see the accommodation being different (not even in the way Italo has it where the two middle classes use similar seats with different coloured leather) as it will remove their flexibility. It'll purely be about service. If they were going to change the accommodation I'd probably suggest they went for something like the Voyager hybrid coach (or the "super-Standard" table bay found at the cab end of 350s) - 2+2 but at First Class spacing with full window alignment, recline and many tables, and probably premium dark leather and tables designed specifically for laptop use - but I don't think they are taking that approach.

 

[Gareth]

Sounds good, XC is trash though be careful what you wish for

Considering LNW's reliability, that proverb could equally apply to yourself.

 

[gaillark]

I travel 1st class majority of the time.
Virgin were very good at spin and hype and lacked substance.. The 1st class catering service was anything but first class except for breakfast which was the only decent meal they provided.
After 10 am, the quality and range of food was dreadful and rather basic including the few evening peak services where so called light evening meal was provided subject to stock being available. Also the level of service provided by staff is not as good as other operators.
For a full price ticket holder of £500 this just was and is unacceptable.

Now I welcome Avanti's PE class. First class will need to up its game to provide restaurant quality dining.
I would be very happy with PE being priced on Chiltern's silver train model where a supplement is payable . Chiltern had a brilliant product before its disasterous decision to scrap all on board catering which downgraded an otherwise excellent product. Free tea, coffee, water and juice whilst food was paid for. And their bacon and egg was excellent and we'll priced. If Avanti adopt a supplement then it should work.

It is interesting also to see whether decent full meals will return. Finally the few times that I travelled on a weekend the catering service is a joke and hope Avanti will improve this.

 

[Clayton]

I travel 1st class majority of the time.
Virgin were very good at spin and hype and lacked substance.. The 1st class catering service was anything but first class except for breakfast which was the only decent meal they provided.
After 10 am, the quality and range of food was dreadful and rather basic including the few evening peak services where so called light evening meal was provided subject to stock being available. Also the level of service provided by staff is not as good as other operators.
For a full price ticket holder of £500 this just was and is unacceptable.

Now I welcome Avanti's PE class. First class will need to up its game to provide restaurant quality dining.
I would be very happy with PE being priced on Chiltern's silver train model where a supplement is payable . Chiltern had a brilliant product before its disasterous decision to scrap all on board catering which downgraded an otherwise excellent product. Free tea, coffee, water and juice whilst food was paid for. And their bacon and egg was excellent and we'll priced. If Avanti adopt a supplement then it should work.

It is interesting also to see whether decent full meals will return. Finally the few times that I travelled on a weekend the catering service is a joke and hope Avanti will improve this.

Can’t believe anyone is really interested in food on trains. People might pay a little more for more space and a quieter environment, that’s all

 

[hexagon789]

I travel 1st class majority of the time.
Virgin were very good at spin and hype and lacked substance.. The 1st class catering service was anything but first class except for breakfast which was the only decent meal they provided.
After 10 am, the quality and range of food was dreadful and rather basic including the few evening peak services where so called light evening meal was provided subject to stock being available. Also the level of service provided by staff is not as good as other operators.
For a full price ticket holder of £500 this just was and is unacceptable.

Now I welcome Avanti's PE class. First class will need to up its game to provide restaurant quality dining.
I would be very happy with PE being priced on Chiltern's silver train model where a supplement is payable . Chiltern had a brilliant product before its disasterous decision to scrap all on board catering which downgraded an otherwise excellent product. Free tea, coffee, water and juice whilst food was paid for. And their bacon and egg was excellent and we'll priced. If Avanti adopt a supplement then it should work.

It is interesting also to see whether decent full meals will return. Finally the few times that I travelled on a weekend the catering service is a joke and hope Avanti will improve this.

It's an attractive privilege but complimentary meals in First class is by no means a right. It's not universal across TOCs, even those of similar stature to the ICWC franchise.

 

[gaillark]

Can’t believe anyone is really interested in food on trains. People might pay a little more for more space and a quieter environment, that’s all

When you are busy and on the go the ability to get something to eat and drink is important. For many leisure travellers this won't be essential but on business time is money and being able to get something decent to eat is a good use of time and a way of chilling out.

 

[Hadders]

VT have long offered free Weekend First to Anytime ticket holders travelling on the weekend, but I don't know if Avanti are continuing that.

I can’t find any reference to this on NationalRail.co.uk or Avanti’s website. Does anyone know if Avanti are continuing with it?

Up to last week National Rail website states that Virgin offered this free upgrade, now all reference to Virgin has been removed from NationalRail.co.uk and replaced by Avanti I can’t see anything about it.

 

[gaillark]

It's an attractive privilege but complimentary meals in First class is by no means a right. It's not universal across TOCs, even those of similar stature to the ICWC franchise.

Agree but tell that to those greedy TOC's especially Virgin who have pushed up the cost first class tickets way beyond the +50% of standard price for so called complimentary dining. To be honest I would prefer to go back to the BR model whereby you paid for meals.
PE on Avantiwestcoast will hopefully strike the right balance .

 

[hexagon789]

Agree but tell that to those greedy TOC's especially Virgin who have pushed up the cost first class tickets way beyond the +50% of standard price for so called complimentary dining. To be honest I would prefer to go back to the BR model whereby you paid for meals.
PE on Avantiwestcoast will hopefully strike the right balance .

Ideally the new PE would do that to a degree

 

[PeterC]

Can’t believe anyone is really interested in food on trains. People might pay a little more for more space and a quieter environment, that’s all

I'd rather get a drink on the train than try and juggle a bag, hot coffee and a ticket at the barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather get a drink on the train than try and juggle a bag, hot coffee and a ticket at the barriers.

That's tea, coffee (and water), though, which is dirt cheap to provide and might well still be provided. Hot drinks are fairly unique in being a right faff to carry with luggage and you can't stock up with them other than using a flask which never tastes that good.

Even if it wasn't the price of a cup of tea on board is far lower than the uplift to full 1st is likely to be.

 

[sprunt]

Increased comfort (allegedly) and legroom.

How can legroom be increased without altering the seat layout? That seems odd.

And sorry to go back a few pages, but was the fake 3+2 photo really on the Avanti website, or was the link fake as well? I followed it and got a 404 error, but I don't know if the page was there on Tuesday when the link was posted and has been removed since.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can legroom be increased without altering the seat layout?

By replacing the seats with thinner-backed ones e.g. Fainsa Sophias or ironing boards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can legroom be increased without altering the seat layout? That seems odd.

And sorry to go back a few pages, but was the fake 3+2 photo really on the Avanti website, or was the link fake as well? I followed it and got a 404 error, but I don't know if the page was there on Tuesday when the link was posted and has been removed since.

The whole thing was fake. The link was never on their website, and the picture is of a Chinese Pendolino with the Avanti logos photoshopped on.