Avanti West Coast - Three classes of travel to be introduced

[Grumpy Git]

The MML HST buffet car 1st class seats were always declassified when I used the service in the early 80's.

 

[JaJaWa]

Here’s the answer to what it will be – straight from the MD’s mouth:

Avanti managing director Phil Whittingham, who previously held the same role at Virgin Trains, said: "We know there is going to be three classes. It is going to be a first class, a premium economy-type style and economy."

He said passengers in premium economy could be entitled to "the bigger seat, better wi-fi and snacks rather than a meal".

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...avel-introduced-britains-railways-first-time/

'Middle-class' carriages: Rail passengers offered 'premium economy' fares

9 DECEMBER 2019 • 4:32PM
Three classes of travel will be introduced to Britain's railways for the first time in 60 years, the chief executive of the new West Coast mainline has announced.

While previously the only options on a train have been the plush seats and a hot meal in first class or a squeeze in standard, the new trains will feature a middle tier with snacks, more legroom and faster WiFi.

Avanti West Coast, which replaced Virgin Trains on the West Coast Main Line on Sunday, is developing a premium economy-style offering, similar to that on airlines.

Avanti managing director Phil Whittingham, who previously held the same role at Virgin Trains, said: "We know there is going to be three classes. It is going to be a first class, a premium economy-type style and economy."

He said passengers in premium economy could be entitled to "the bigger seat, better wi-fi and snacks rather than a meal".

Britain has not had three tiers of seats on its trains since 1956, when trains had first class, second class and third class.

It is not known how much the new middle tier of fares would cost.

Matthew Gregory, chief executive of FirstGroup, which joint-owns the franchise with Italian firm Trenitalia, said the change in policy is "about balancing and being flexible within the train".


He went on: "Obviously first class can be quite expensive, so there are different price points between standard class and first class and it is about seeing if we can offer a more flexible offering that suits more price points."

It is likely that the new tickets will come into play when the Pendolino trains inherited from Virgin are upgraded.

First Rail managing director Steve Montgomery described the 56 trains the company inherited from Virgin Trains as “tired”.

The firm has promised to significantly improve the carriages used with a £117 million refurbishment of the Pendolinos and replacing Super Voyagers with new trains.

There will be 25,000 new seats, more reliable wi-fi and improved catering. The revamp of the trains is likely to happen by autumn 2020, and the new trains will be on the line by 2022.

FirstGroup reportedly considered introducing three classes on west coast services in its ill-fated 2012 bid for the franchise.

A year later, the Department for Transport was forced to deny it was planning to require a "third-class service" to be introduced on the East Coast Main Line, after a three-tier system was included in a leaked franchise prospectus ahead of a return to private ownership.

Rail expert Mark Smith, founder of Seat61.com, told the PA news agency: "When it comes to intercity travel, there does seem to be scope for having some extra classes, but it depends what they're doing and how they're doing it."


Cross-Channel rail operator Eurostar offers three classes of travel.

The middle class, named Standard Premier, entitles ticket holders to a larger seat where they are served a light meal and drinks.

 

[ag51ruk]

So much scope for confusion amongst passengers here (as there was when First Class was called 'Club Class' on Virgin Cross Country, or when Midland Main Line had a short lived 'Business Class' which was in First Class seats but without the free service) - it works on Eurostar and aircraft because you have an allocated seat that you must use, but I can see this being a real problem for someone with an anytime type ticket who is just looking for somewhere to sit.

 

[pt_mad]

Several years ago a hot food smell would waft through coach K during the evening. The first class meal is now a wrap or sandwich, OR cheese and crackers with a bag of crisps and a banana. Total cost: about £2.

The majority of local seasons in 1st are pay when challenged - sit in 1st then upgrade for £1.50 if they check tickets.

But there is still a hot meal in the evening isn't there? Or do you mean there used to be at weekends and isn't now?
Also is it possible to upgrade to first-class for £1.50 when challenged?

Out of curiosity, what don't you like about compulsory reservations? For the kind of medium/long distance journeys this 'premium economy' service is aimed at, I would have thought that most passengers would know at least the day before what their outward travel plans were, even if they needed some flexibility on a return leg.

The industry frequently has responded to questions of how will you stop my train being so crowded in the future by explaining they wish to manage demand more by the use of more advances.
Otherwise how can they possibly accommodate everyone on their first choice during the peaks or in a Friday evening or services departing for London on a Saturday morning?

 

[pt_mad]

Is anyone able to clarify whether the current WCML First Class meal offering is guaranteed within the price or complementary, or may be withdrawn due to unforeseen circumstance on occasion?
Are customers able to reclaim the difference in fare if first class meal, or service, was unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances?

 

[notlob.divad]

So much scope for confusion amongst passengers here (as there was when First Class was called 'Club Class' on Virgin Cross Country, or when Midland Main Line had a short lived 'Business Class' which was in First Class seats but without the free service) - it works on Eurostar and aircraft because you have an allocated seat that you must use, but I can see this being a real problem for someone with an anytime type ticket who is just looking for somewhere to sit.

I am not so sure of that. It will surely be a case of turning Coach K into 'first' and Coaches G,H and J into 'Premium economy'. People can read signs, so as long as it isn't a mix and match where Premium Economy and First are in fact the same seating area, but just a service is different, I cannot see it being a major problem.
That said nobody will ever convince me of the need for First Class. Better to just have a train you get on and find a seat, (if you can).

 

[SS4]

Is anyone able to clarify whether the current WCML First Class meal offering is guaranteed within the price or complementary, or may be withdrawn due to unforeseen circumstance on occasion?
Are customers able to reclaim the difference in fare if first class meal, or service, was unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances?

Last time I travelled it was best endeavours - you would get a meal if available but if it was not available that was too bad and you'd not see a penny back.

I still have my concerns about how this is going to work out in practice and I see the new tier being priced very similar to the current first class with First rising more - kind of what "simplification" did a few years ago

 

[Grumpy Git]

- kind of what "simplification" did a few years ago

................. and decimilisation in February 1971

 

[Kite159]

My prediction is one of the first class coaches will be given over to the new "premium standard". 2+1 seating with just tea/coffee/water given as freebies, maybe a snack box (similar to the old Weekend First offer) on certain flows.

Then at weekends, they can do away with having 1st class and just have premium standard & standard to reflect the reduced offer.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I would think that it would be demand-led pricing with coaches allocated according to demand. Much like Eurostar - coach K is "proper" first a all times and the curtain moves back during the week and during the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My prediction is one of the first class coaches will be given over to the new "premium standard". 2+1 seating with just tea/coffee/water given as freebies, maybe a snack box (similar to the old Weekend First offer) on certain flows.

Then at weekends, they can do away with having 1st class and just have premium standard & standard to reflect the reduced offer.

That would be my prediction.

I would expect it to be the other way round, though, with one of the others being proper 1st and not K. K, while it does have the coveted single seats, rather lacks in tables for two.

 

[greyman42]

Is she sitting over two seats there?

It does appear so but the coaches in the picture had fixed armrests between the seats so she could not be.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I’ve seen Avanti have a page on their website called “Value” the picture being mock up 3+2 seating on a Pendolino, I hope this isn’t what standard becomes. If so I may refrain from using Avanti as it is not how long distance intercity travel should be done

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve seen Avanti have a page on their website called “Value” the picture being mock up 3+2 seating on a Pendolino, I hope this isn’t what standard becomes. If so I may refrain from using Avanti as it is not how long distance intercity travel should be done

At risk of accusing this as being fake news, where exactly - URL please?

The AWC website isn't very pictorial, I'm struggling to see any pictures on it!

 

[Scotrail314209]

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/onboard/value-class This is the link that was sent to me, but it doesn’t work though. Nor does it show up throughout the website

 

[MarkyT]

It'll be interesting to see how 3+2 will work in an already narrow bodyshell on pendos with reserved seats. 3+2 traditionally in UK has only ever been used on suburban routes where reservations aren't generally a thing so people will redistribute themselves around to fit, and some will be prepared to stand in order to avoid trying to fit in an uncomfortably small space. Imagine the horror of being ensconced in one of these when a REALLY fat person comes down the aisle and asks you to move so they can get to their reserved middle seat. Expect fights! I expect it is discriminatory to refuse a reservation for a seat the person couldn't physically fit in...

 

[Scotrail314209]

FYI, I got the link and picture sent to me by someone, who also thinks it may be real, I can't tell as it looks very official already.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Is 3+2 actually happening? Just looking back to post #32 that claims there aren’t going to be any internal changes to the Pendos.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Looks like someone put a hoax out there then (NOT ME)

 

[Kite159]

Looks like someone put a hoax out there then (NOT ME)

Although it wouldn't surprise me if they tried something like it. Have the 3+2 for walk-up fares and the 2+2 standard reserved for advance tickets only with no standing allowed.

 

[pt_mad]

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/onboard/value-class This link is dead, I'll attach the photo now.

Looks like someone put a hoax out there then (NOT ME)

Thing is that actually does look like a 390 shell and with the view out the window and the people stood there like they were just caught in the shot by accident. It doesn't look CGI'd at all imo. Even the coat hook between the window is there. Although the windows perhaps look slightly more 800 with the groove for the blind.

Looking at that right hand row of seats, one looks to be reclined. Didn't a poster say earlier up they went to a brand roadshow and there were some people reclining on some seats?

 

[option]

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/onboard/value-class This link is dead, I'll attach the photo now.

/onboard is a real part of their website

& that photo is a train in a depot, & there's people on it at the far end, & plastic sheeting on the floor.
Though the luggage rack looks wrong, no 'reserved' indicator screens.

 

[pt_mad]

, no 'reserved' indicator screens.

Aye. But it looks like that might be covered up with a wide masking tape?

 

[Mag_seven]

3+2 seating on a Pendolino

You must be joking surely - 2+2 is bad enough in standard on a Pendo, but 3+2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks a bit too wide to work, to be honest. I suspect it might well indeed be real and a Pendolino - but one in another country where they indeed do have 3+2. Scandinavia maybe? Their loading gauge is very wide.

The spotlights also look fake, they're in the glass part of the rack yet shaped like the current ones.

It looks like the kind of thing one of the spoof Tweeters would do.

For a start, there aren't any Pendolinos in the refurb works yet!

 

[option]

Aye. But it looks like that might be covered up with a wide masking tape?

Luggage rack isn't from a Virgin Pendolino, it's one of these;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_Class_Sm3

 

[Bletchleyite]

Beat me to it. It looks like the Finnish interior though I can't find any evidence of 3+2 there. Perhaps there was some sort of pilot?

Though VT of course did propose to actually do this originally!

 

[WatcherZero]

It looks like a European Gauge carriage rather than Standard Gauge. Its three seats and still a wide aisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Found it - it's Chinese, I think the CRH5A. Thought it might be them as Standard is 3+2 on all their (very wide) high speed trains:

CRH5 interior in Standard

They do seem to be very slightly different seats (no armrests) but it's definitely that interior. The lights and racks are correct.

 

[hexagon789]

Found it - it's Chinese, I think the CRH5A. Thought it might be them as Standard is 3+2 on all their (very wide) high speed trains:

CRH5 interior in Standard

They do seem to be very slightly different seats (no armrests) but it's definitely that interior. The lights and racks are correct.

Japan also has 3+2 in Standard on most Shinkansen, First ("Green Class") is 2+2. They have a few select routes with Premium which is 2+1.