Avanti West Coast timetable

[berneyarms]

I’m only talking about the westbound ones.

The 09:51 is going to Holyhead starting at Crewe.

Those connections are irrelevant.

It is the connections into that train that you need to look at.

 

[Class 170101]

BIB - I'm sure @The Planner and his colleagues think similarly highly of you as well.....

Which is what I thought!

Planning has NOT been as simple as look at all the connections and make them work. Its been about providing trains and services at short notice for the best part of two years.

Unfortunately if there is a path addjacent either side used by another operator its theirs unless they vacate it / change it for whatever reason. What Avanti have done is kept booked paths as much as possible to save themselves work and to frankly get a service advertised to the public as soon as possible.

 

[berneyarms]

Planning has NOT been as simple as look at all the connections and make them work. Its been about providing trains and services at short notice for the best part of two years.

Unfortunately if there is a path addjacent either side used by another operator its theirs unless they vacate it / change it for whatever reason. What Avanti have done is kept booked paths as much as possible to save themselves work and to frankly get a service advertised to the public as soon as possible.

And I acknowledged that. Believe me I fully understand how difficult it has been to deal with the last two years.

But I really don't think that pathing is an issue on the North Wales Coast at these times.

What I am focussing on are the replacement shuttle services from Crewe for direct trains, and the fact that they don't connect with anything, missing the connection into them by a minute or two at Crewe.

 

[Falcon1200]

What Avanti have done is kept booked paths as much as possible to save themselves work and to frankly get a service advertised to the public as soon as possible.

Which latter has been an abject, miserable failure, given that Avanti advised me by email less than 24 hours before travel of a departure time 20 minutes later than the actual !

 

[dk1]

Which latter has been an abject, miserable failure, given that Avanti advised me by email less than 24 hours before travel of a departure time 20 minutes later than the actual !

I thought it was 20 minutes earlier.

 

[Falcon1200]

I thought it was 20 minutes earlier.

To clarify, Avanti's email to me showed my departure time as 1130, 20 minutes later than when the retimed train actually went, 1110.

 

[dk1]

To clarify, Avanti's email to me showed my departure time of 1130, 20 minutes later than the retiming to 1110.

Ahh yes. The departure was actually retimed to 11:10. You have mentioned it once or twice

 

[Falcon1200]

Ahh yes. The departure was actually retimed to 11:10. You have mentioned it once or twice

Indeed I have !

 

[Esker-pades]

And I acknowledged that. Believe me I fully understand how difficult it has been to deal with the last two years.

But I really don't think that pathing is an issue on the North Wales Coast at these times.

What I am focussing on are the replacement shuttle services from Crewe for direct trains, and the fact that they don't connect with anything, missing the connection into them by a minute or two at Crewe.

Have you raised this with Avanti? Their planning department will be significantly streched, both with constant COVID-related timetable re-writes and completely re-writing the WCML timetable for Dec '22. It's well possible this kind of thing has not been noticed. There's nothing to be lost by raising the connection issue with them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That isn’t the official connection into the 10:50 as the minimum connection time at Crewe is 10 minutes.

It misses the minimum connection time by a minute.

To be absolutely clear - this week the official connections at Crewe are:
09:51 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 07:09 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 08:47) (Would take connection off 08:10 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 09:59, 8 mins later)
10:50 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 08:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 09:49) (Would take connection off 09:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 10:51, 1 min later)
11:48 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 09:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 10:49) (Would take connection off 10:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 11:51, 3 mins later)
17:49 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 15:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 16:47) (Would take connection off 15:59 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 17:51, 2 mins later)
18:56 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 17:03 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 18:42) (This is only decent connection)

That comprehensively destroys the Chester/North Wales timetable which is based on through services from Euston.
Breaking the link at Crewe just adds an hour to all journeys.
P6 to P9 westbound connections can be just a couple of minutes cross-platform, but different heading south (P9 to (usually) P5).
This service always comes bottom of Avanti's priority list - it's hard to know whether Virgin would have done any different.

 

[The Planner]

Have you raised this with Avanti? Their planning department will be significantly streched, both with constant COVID-related timetable re-writes and completely re-writing the WCML timetable for Dec '22. It's well possible this kind of thing has not been noticed. There's nothing to be lost by raising the connection issue with them.

Dec 22 isnt being done by the production side though is it.

That comprehensively destroys the Chester/North Wales timetable which is based on through services from Euston.
Breaking the link at Crewe just adds an hour to all journeys.
P6 to P9 westbound connections can be just a couple of minutes cross-platform, but different heading south (P9 to (usually) P5).
This service always comes bottom of Avanti's priority list - it's hard to know whether Virgin would have done any different.

That isn’t the official connection into the 10:50 as the minimum connection time at Crewe is 10 minutes.

It misses the minimum connection time by a minute.

To be absolutely clear - this week the official connections at Crewe are:
09:51 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 07:09 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 08:47) (Would take connection off 08:10 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 09:59, 8 mins later)
10:50 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 08:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 09:49) (Would take connection off 09:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 10:51, 1 min later)
11:48 Crewe-Holyhead - AWC inward connection is the 09:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 10:49) (Would take connection off 10:07 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 11:51, 3 mins later)
17:49 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 15:10 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 16:47) (Would take connection off 15:59 ex-EUS if the shuttle left Crewe at 17:51, 2 mins later)
18:56 Crewe-Bangor - AWC inward connection is the 17:03 ex-Euston (arrives Crewe 18:42) (This is only decent connection)

Taking a look at Tuesday coming as a random day, a quick look suggests that if you leave Crewe at 0959 you are getting into Chester 1019. By the looks of it you have 1V94 off the coast reversing in P4 at Chester to go towards Wrexham at 1021. That is a clash so someone is waiting, probably Avanti in this case, so you have to be 4 minutes after 1V94 at Saltney, which makes Avanti 1025 off Chester. Again, it cannot do that as 1D93 to Llandudno is departing at 1027. So that may have to go at 1029 but is in trouble once you hit Shotton as you end up with a 7 minute headway behind a stopper so is probably going to need another minute or so in it. I also think that causes a junction margin issue with 1V95 from Holyhead to Llanelli at Llandudno Jn and starts eating into the turnaround time at LLandudno before it heads back to Manchester.
The 1050 going at 1051 is neither here nor there.
The 1148 going at 1151 I can't immediately see a problem with.
The 1749 going at 1751 is the same,

 

[berneyarms]

Have you raised this with Avanti? Their planning department will be significantly streched, both with constant COVID-related timetable re-writes and completely re-writing the WCML timetable for Dec '22. It's well possible this kind of thing has not been noticed. There's nothing to be lost by raising the connection issue with them.

I certainly have raised with AWC the planned 10:48 Crewe-Holyhead on Saturdays in the new base timetable from May, as it misses the connection off the 09:07 Euston-Liverpool by 3 minutes.

This would normally be a direct 09:10 service and as such is the main train feeding the Sail/Rail passengers onto the Dublin ferries at Holyhead.

We are in a very much reduced AWC timetable at the moment, which hopefully will increase somewhat in the coming weeks.

Dec 22 isnt being done by the production side though is it.



Taking a look at Tuesday coming as a random day, a quick look suggests that if you leave Crewe at 0959 you are getting into Chester 1019. By the looks of it you have 1V94 off the coast reversing in P4 at Chester to go towards Wrexham at 1021. That is a clash so someone is waiting, probably Avanti in this case, so you have to be 4 minutes after 1V94 at Saltney, which makes Avanti 1025 off Chester. Again, it cannot do that as 1D93 to Llandudno is departing at 1027. So that may have to go at 1029 but is in trouble once you hit Shotton as you end up with a 7 minute headway behind a stopper so is probably going to need another minute or so in it. I also think that causes a junction margin issue with 1V95 from Holyhead to Llanelli at Llandudno Jn and starts eating into the turnaround time at LLandudno before it heads back to Manchester.
The 1050 going at 1051 is neither here nor there.
The 1148 going at 1151 I can't immediately see a problem with.
The 1749 going at 1751 is the same,

Thank you very much for taking the time to check this out for me. It's very much appreciated.

Yes, I had a feeling that deferring the 09:51 would be an issue all right.

But, thank you for confirming what I did think all along about the other three services.

I may well drop AWC a brief note as it would improve the service offered to customers if they could be changed.

 

[38Cto15E]

I am trying to book a seat on the AWC 1036 Euston-Blackpool north service on Monday March 7th, but the AWC web site is showing all tickets sold.
Will this service be re-instated after February 25th? It is showing in RTT.
TIA

 

[dk1]

I am trying to book a seat on the AWC 1036 Euston-Blackpool north service on Monday March 7th, but the AWC web site is showing all tickets sold.
Will this service be re-instated after February 25th? It is showing in RTT.
TIA

I thought they where all suspended for the next few months at the very least. Blackpool is being served by diverting the bi-hourly Euston-Glasgow via Birmingham to the Fylde resort after Preston as has been the case for the last year or so.

 

[38Cto15E]

Cheers dk1, I just thought (hoped) that AWC were reverting to their normal timetable after 25th February.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Cheers dk1, I just thought (hoped) that AWC were reverting to their normal timetable after 25th February.

25th of March maybe, but not February.

 

[dk1]

Cheers dk1, I just thought (hoped) that AWC were reverting to their normal timetable after 25th February.

No worries mate. I don't think its returning with the May timetable either unfortunately.

 

[38Cto15E]

I'll put my bucket and spade on ebay then if that is the case. I was really disappointed when Cv19 struck and the other Blackpool service had to be caped.

 

[Welshman]

I'll put my bucket and spade on ebay then if that is the case. I was really disappointed when Cv19 struck and the other Blackpool service had to be caped.

Other beaches are available

 

[jfollows]

Indeed.
I'll report back in the unexpected event of receiving a notification, but I don't think it likely. Once I've travelled I will send them a formal complaint, not that it will likely achieve anything much!

As expected, 1H71 16:40 Euston-Wilmslow remained retimed to depart Euston today at 16:35. I didn't have a problem catching it, but as expected I received no notification from Avanti (with whom I booked the ticket directly) about the retiming in advance. Which, given that I'm required to use the train they originally told me (the 16:40 departure) is bad.
The train simply ran early to Stafford where it caught up with 9P85 15:34 Euston-Blackpool (nothing surprising there) and then ran into congestion outside Crewe so ended up being late even with the extra 5 minutes added to the schedule.
I will construct a letter of complaint for the lack of notification tomorrow and report back if I get anything interesting in response.

 

[Peter0124]

Hopefully the 3tph Manc and xx.30 GLC timetable is back from Monday as RTT is still showing it

 

[FManc]

Hopefully the 3tph Manc and xx.30 GLC timetable is back from Monday as RTT is still showing it

Take what’s on RTT with a pinch of salt.
From next week the main difference will be be:
x2 tph Euston to Picc (1 via Crewe, 1 via Stoke)
x2 tph Euston to BHM (1 of these continue to either Blackpool/Preston/Edinburgh)
2 trains per day in each direction from Euston to Holyhead.

 

[Jimini]

The 1932 (first off peak train) to Crewe via. Birmingham was packed to the rafters (according to the missus). Plenty of overspill into Standard Premium to the point of it being full and standing -- the TM apparently wandered from first class through SP to standard, realised he was on a hiding to nothing, then retreated post haste back to first, never to be seen again. No payments taken from anyone.

Avanti (maybe Virgin in the old days too?) drive me a little bit potty. Eye-watering fares throughout the peak. First off peak southbound is at half-ten from the West Midlands, barely getting you to town before midday. Then the blanket peak only from about 3pm until the infamous first off-peak departures at gone 7pm.

I tried to book a ticket from Coventry to Watford last month for a meeting that started at 11am. The cost was £100+. Crazy.

Then there's the pathetic service levels at the moment -- I can only comment about the one TPH from New Street down to Euston compared to the old three (which seem to be provided by Voyagers to boot -- always good for climate change to run diesels 100% under the wires) but from what I've read the service is pretty threadbare from the NW as well.

I shall save my CrossCountry rant for another day and another thread

**Edit** Also perplexed about the two track railway setup that means all AWC services trail slowly behind the other services on the DS all the way via. Northampton after 10pm. If you look at comparable services on the ECML, they are drop off only and tend to run to a normal timetable in realtime. I can see on Traksy that there is stuff going on via. Weedon, but in most instances over the past six months or so that's not been the case, it's just a super slow schlep following the LNWR / freights. This applies to both the 2230 and 2330 sloooooow journeys north.

 

[jfollows]

1R22 07:15 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston has a really bad timetable next week, booked Euston arrival 09:40 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C34359/2022-03-01/detailed) and, with 1R18 07:00 remaining cancelled gives a relatively poor up morning service from Manchester. 1R22 is timed over 1 hour Rugby-Euston, which is pretty much 1966 standards (mind you, with a lengthy stop now at Milton Keynes)! 15 minutes of pathing allowance Stone-Euston.
Public timetable for next week at View and Download Here
1R22 follows 1U20 07:14 Crewe-Euston 110mph all the way from Rugby to Euston. It used to arrive into Euston at 09:21 but now seems to be delayed at Colwich to follow 4E84 05:19 Seaforth-Doncaster (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H22540/2022-03-01/detailed) and therefore runs 6 minutes later from there than it used to, and then just continues to pick up delays from having lost its original path (it used to run 6 minutes ahead of 1U20 from Rugby, but now it has to follow 1U20)! And it's booked to pick up passengers at Milton Keynes at 09:03 so it's not going to be able to run faster if it's not held up by other trains anyway; it might end up sitting in platform 4 at Milton Keynes for quite some while as a result.

Nothing earth-shaking here, it's just something I find interesting to see and the obvious complexity associated with pathing trains over busy lines these days.

The 1932 (first off peak train) to Crewe via. Birmingham was packed to the rafters (according to the missus). Plenty of overspill into Standard Premium to the point of it being full and standing -- the TM apparently wandered from first class through SP to standard, realised he was on a hiding to nothing, then retreated post haste back to first, never to be seen again. No payments taken from anyone.

Avanti (maybe Virgin in the old days too?) drive me a little bit potty. Eye-watering fares throughout the peak. First off peak southbound is at half-ten from the West Midlands, barely getting you to town before midday. Then the blanket peak only from about 3pm until the infamous first off-peak departures at gone 7pm.

1H71, the 16:40/16:35 departure the same day was very quiet, almost nobody else in Standard Premium. Our advance tickets were relatively cheap and significantly cheaper than our previous day's 1A21 09:55 up Manchester-London, which is a train on which off-peak tickets are permitted. So it appears that loadings are up (if your busy train is anything to go by) and the peak/off-peak split isn't really matching demand. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about how quiet my earlier service was! 1A21 on Tuesday was relatively busy, including in Standard Premium.
On the other hand, the advance ticket pricing appeared to match demand in my case. I originally thought the 16:40 down would be more expensive and was thinking of having to travel later to get a lower price, but the 16:40 was perfect timing after a leisurely lunch and well priced too.

EDIT PS I note that 1R22 gets its old timetable back starting on 7th. March, with a return to an 09:21 arrival into London Euston (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C34359/2022-03-07/detailed).

 

[172101]

1R16 & 1R18 (Fasts) don't look like every returning now, as they are not in the May TT.

 

[Peter0124]

1R16 & 1R18 (Fasts) don't look like every returning now, as they are not in the May TT.

In my opinion 1R18 could return some day (it ran in the September 2020 TT) but I doubt 1R16 is coming back anymore, it seemed like a relief train (for the 1R14 non stop New Street to Euston?) that just went empty to Wembley after arriving at Euston anyway.

 

[jfollows]

In my opinion 1R18 could return some day (it ran in the September 2020 TT) but I doubt 1R16 is coming back anymore, it seemed like a relief train (for the 1R14 non stop New Street to Euston?) that just went empty to Wembley after arriving at Euston anyway.

I went on its first ever incarnation (this is the Manchester-Stockport-Euston service to be clear) and then I used it regularly until I moved from Manchester to Wilmslow well over ten years ago, and it always seemed to load well then. So I'd guess as usage picks up it'd be a good candidate to return. For a while, 1R17 06:43 Manchester-London via Wilmslow added a Milton Keynes stop which was only possible in the absence of 1R18, but 1R17 comes back again next Monday without the Milton Keynes stop, which probably now enables the path for 1R18 again.

EDIT Going back to 1R22's slow timetable this week:
1R22 ran as booked today, nothing to do with 4E84, it just ran 3 minutes late from Stoke, presented on time at Colwich and followed 1U20 from Rugby. 1U20 ran early into Euston so 1R22 ended up arriving shortly after 09:35. Today's actual times attached below.

EDIT Going back to my retimed train:

I will construct a letter of complaint for the lack of notification tomorrow and report back if I get anything interesting in response.

[This complaint was because Avanti retimed their train on which I had an advance ticket but didn't bother to tell me about the change, even though I booked the ticket with them and they obviously had all my contact details.]
Although the response was commendably fast, essentially Avanti said that it was up to me to check the timetable (of course I did, actually) and that if I'd missed the original train I could have used "any reasonable alternative service".
I didn't expect anything else from them, to be honest.

Please be advised that we are currently running amended train services across the network and Im really sorry to hear that your journey has been affected by related Timetable changes. We may sometimes have to change our Timetables and in some circumstances its not something that we can predict therefore no early announcement is possible.

We always advise our customers to check their journey details as close as possible to their date of travel and the best way is to check on our website, please see the link provided:

https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables

If we do change things after you have bought a ticket, you can either use any reasonable alternative service, you may be eligible for a Delay Repay or a Refund if you decide to abandon your journey.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Although the response was commendably fast, essentially Avanti said that it was up to me to check the timetable (of course I did, actually) and that if I'd missed the original train I could have used "any reasonable alternative service".
I didn't expect anything else from them, to be honest.

I'm surprised they didn't tell you it would have been your fault for not getting to the station "in plenty of time"?

 

[jfollows]

I'm surprised they didn't tell you it would have been your fault for not getting to the station "in plenty of time"?

It was bad enough that, predictably, they essentially told me it was my fault for not checking the timetable for the changes which they made to their train times! But I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd come up with other reasons which were also my fault as you say.

EDIT on Wednesday:
1R22 ran as booked Monday and Tuesday; today 1U20 was delayed at Rugeley so 1R22 went ahead of it at Rugby, so 1R22 will presumable wait time at Milton Keynes for about 7 minutes and then still arrive early in Euston because it won't need the 5 minutes of pathing allowance normally required for following the 110mph train.

 

[Jimini]

**Edit** Also perplexed about the two track railway setup that means all AWC services trail slowly behind the other services on the DS all the way via. Northampton after 10pm. If you look at comparable services on the ECML, they are drop off only and tend to run to a normal timetable in realtime. I can see on Traksy that there is stuff going on via. Weedon, but in most instances over the past six months or so that's not been the case, it's just a super slow schlep following the LNWR / freights. This applies to both the 2230 and 2330 sloooooow journeys north.

Back to bang my late night slow journey drum once again The 2330 tonight is - as always - true to form, taking 1h43, despite going via Weedon!

There must be scope to run these as set down only, a la ECML services, so they can take the time advantage where circumstance allows?