Aviation Discussion

[gsnedders]

You ordered the beef on a plane! Expectations had to be low.

Hah, fair! I can't remember what the alternative was, but it was something that managed to sound even worse! (Coincidentally, I ended up getting beef again back from SFO after seeing on the other side of the plane what the alternative chicken noodles were like—they looked (though may not have tasted) like vomit—and that was pretty great, actually.)

What KLM have been serving recently is a mystery. Bowl of grey and it lived up to its billing

I'm not sure I've ever had KLM's long-haul fare, but short-haul the sandwiches just seem to have got worse and worse to the point where both bread and filling are vile. I actually quite liked the sandwiches BA had for a while around Europe: they were pretty small, but they actually taste nice! (I don't think I've flown BA within Europe in over a year, excluding domestic, though, so I don't know if that's still true.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember commenting to a very embarrassed KLM stewardess that the catering on both easyJet and Ryanair is much better. Ryanair in particular have realised that they can charge a packet and not annoy people by actually having quite a wide and premium range.

 

[Butts]

I remember commenting to a very embarrassed KLM stewardess that the catering on both easyJet and Ryanair is much better. Ryanair in particular have realised that they can charge a packet and not annoy people by actually having quite a wide and premium range.

Particularly the "Four Fingered Red Variety" commonly known as a Kit Kat - 2 Euros . Forget premium range - the only thing premium about Ryanairs offering is the price.

However if you have only paid £20 for Row 1 to Luxembourg.......

Buy a Coffee onboard and bring your own Kit Kat !!

 

[atillathehunn]

Hah, fair! I can't remember what the alternative was, but it was something that managed to sound even worse! (Coincidentally, I ended up getting beef again back from SFO after seeing on the other side of the plane what the alternative chicken noodles were like—they looked (though may not have tasted) like vomit—and that was pretty great, actually.)



I'm not sure I've ever had KLM's long-haul fare, but short-haul the sandwiches just seem to have got worse and worse to the point where both bread and filling are vile. I actually quite liked the sandwiches BA had for a while around Europe: they were pretty small, but they actually taste nice! (I don't think I've flown BA within Europe in over a year, excluding domestic, though, so I don't know if that's still true.)

You got lucky! Dodging a bullet on the noodles...

KLM is one step above gruel. I'm fairly certain the cooking process involves taking the scrapings from other flights and rehashing it into a meal.

The last sandwich on short haul was onion. It was not good.

The BA sandwich on the long haul flight wasn't great. Dry, stale bread with no butter or mustard and a bit of old cheese. Came with a little muffin thing that wasn't the worst. We landed in Nairobi at 10.30pm, and by the time we did immigration and baggage in the terrible temporary tent building it was 11.30pm, so in the hotel by midnight. I was hungry! I'd left the house at 04.45am.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just flown VLM (reborn), between London City and Antwerp.

Fokker 50 aircraft hadn’t changed a bit since I flew them back in about 2009, same cabin, same fixtures. Some metal fixtures in the toilets which is always a novelty.

That aircraft really isn’t reassuring to fly on in turbulence though. Very rattly and palpably prone to crosswinds, I could see the runway at Antwerp on final approach, such was the angle of crab. Antwerp airport is very small and is next to an Aldi. It’s one of the most strangely located airports I’ve been to. The building doesn’t look like an airport and it’s basically just off a street - it could be any old office block.

Service on board was good though. It was the 0740 departure, and despite nothing being advertised on their site, you get a yoghurt, small madeleine, and water/coffee/OJ. Crew were pleasant and motivated. Fare wasn’t cheap, at just over £100 though. Just 21 passengers on board.

Expect them to go belly up by next summer. Fly them while you can!

 

[atillathehunn]

Probably could have stopped with saying Antwerp is a bit strange.

This route has had more reincarnations than Peter Mandelson's career. None of them work out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just flown VLM (reborn), between London City and Antwerp.

Fokker 50 aircraft hadn’t changed a bit since I flew them back in about 2009, same cabin, same fixtures. Some metal fixtures in the toilets which is always a novelty.

That aircraft really isn’t reassuring to fly on in turbulence though. Very rattly and palpably prone to crosswinds, I could see the runway at Antwerp on final approach, such was the angle of crab. Antwerp airport is very small and is next to an Aldi. It’s one of the most strangely located airports I’ve been to. The building doesn’t look like an airport and it’s basically just off a street - it could be any old office block.

I find the F50 is as close to what I'd expect from a 1950s flying experience that you can get in 2017. Rough, but fun!

 

[Butts]

I find the F50 is as close to what I'd expect from a 1950s flying experience that you can get in 2017. Rough, but fun!

I didn't realise Fokker was Dutch - thought it was German Fokker Wolfe Fighter from WW2 etc.

Believe me an F50 is like a Jumbo Jet compared to a Twin Otter operated in the Highlands and Islands in Scotland.

 

[atillathehunn]

Rough, but fun!

Yes I remember her.

The Fokker series and the history of the company are quite interesting. It's a shame to see the end of the Fokker 70 on the Cityhopper circuits. Someone over on Flyertalk (not me) did a write up with pictures of their trip on the last KLM flight LHR-AMS on the Fokker 70.

The Cessna Caravans are good fun. I particularly like the window below seat level in the 'cockpit', though not good for the vertigo sufferer. They fly out to one of my regular haunts from Entebbe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 70 and 100 were interesting, but I wouldn’t sit in the back section. In an aircraft I want exits both sides of me, and these only have front and overwing. The idea of being trapped in the rear fuselage by an overwing fire is not a nice thought.

 

[Bald Rick]

I didn't realise Fokker was Dutch - thought it was German Fokker Wolfe Fighter from WW2 etc.

Reminds me of the tale from decades ago when an ex WW2 fighter pilot was giving a talk at an all girls school. He said that he was patrolling the skies over the Channel one afternoon "when this Fecker jumped me out of the clouds, and another Fecker came up from below, but I managed to shoot my way out and get back unscathed"

Due to some amused chuckling amongst the pupils, the headmistress explained that a Fokker was a type of German fighter plane.

"Well that is true," said the pilot, "but these chaps were flying Messerschmitts."

(It's better when told verbally)

 

[gsnedders]

I didn't realise Fokker was Dutch - thought it was German Fokker Wolfe Fighter from WW2 etc.

That would be Focke-Wulf, a (former) German company, whose successors have gone through various mergers till it now being a component part of EADS.

Fokker did build some aircraft for the Luftwaffe during WW2 under German occupation, though I think primarily as a manufacturer for German designed aircraft.

 

[AlterEgo]

One of the weirdest things about Fokker is their promotional song they released some years back. Not sure there are many smooth pop songs with “we know how to build aircraft” as the first line.

The album contains classics like “We Maintain and Support” and “Birds on the Wing” (the latter: really?? I hope not!!)

https://www.discogs.com/Toon-Vieijra-Fokker-On-The-Wing/release/4277747

 

[atillathehunn]

I think I'm a little behind the time here, but it would appear that the big order Emirates was poised to placed for A380 has been dropped. It has been replaced with an order for 40 787s. I would imagine this spells the end of the A380 programme, which appears to not have been a success.

 

[gsnedders]

I think I'm a little behind the time here, but it would appear that the big order Emirates was poised to placed for A380 has been dropped. It has been replaced with an order for 40 787s. I would imagine this spells the end of the A380 programme, which appears to not have been a success.

I thought Dubai was already slot limited, and Emirates A380's had good load-factors. What reports there are seem to suggest Emirates not ordering the A380 is down to concerns for the future of the programme; I'd be surprised if Airbus actually dropped the A380 versus just decreasing production speed. As long as there's orders coming in, it's not an overly large concern.

 

[atillathehunn]

Yes the airport is a busy place, and I would imagine slot controlled. However, they seem to have abandoned the order in favour of the B787. I read somewhere, though I can't find the link, that Airbus wouldn't offer an improved efficiency engine. Maybe the reign of Emirates is coming to an end.

 

[gsnedders]

Yes the airport is a busy place, and I would imagine slot controlled. However, they seem to have abandoned the order in favour of the B787. I read somewhere, though I can't find the link, that Airbus wouldn't offer an improved efficiency engine. Maybe the reign of Emirates is coming to an end.

Airbus wrote off an A380neo a while ago; don't foresee having the orders to justify the expensive of it. Hence the A380plus (which I imagine still has some recertification cost, given the move from 10-across to 11-across seating will surely require new evacuation tests, and the changes to the wings).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A move to 11-across seating will make it a cattle truck and even less popular with passengers.

I think air is different to rail really. People really want direct flights, a smaller, more efficient aircraft is better at providing those, hence the B787's success. Changing planes is much more hassle than changing trains.

 

[atillathehunn]

11 across will kill their business. I'm just beginning to get to the employment status where I get to choose my airline, I would say no.

 

[Bald Rick]

As long as there's orders coming in, it's not an overly large concern.

But they're aren't orders coming in, that's the point. Hasn't been one for 2 years.

 

[atillathehunn]

I think Baldrick has the general idea, and it's corroborated by other sources. Tim Clarke would have placed the order if Airbus were able to find orders from other customers to shore up the viability of the production run. The end of the production run slumps the price of the plane second hand, and changes the economics of an order.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...order-a380s-hangs-airbus-selling-superjumbos/

Bad news for the production line. It's a shame. I know the economics are atrocious, but the A380 was a very nice plane to fly on.

 

[gsnedders]

But they're aren't orders coming in, that's the point. Hasn't been one for 2 years.

Well, yes. Depends on whether the open orders on the order book will accept delivery or cancel; there's 100 open orders, and with the production line slowing to 8/year from 2019, that gives a fair number of years to go before the order book is empty. There's time for something to change, but I don't know whether it will or not.

Not doing an A380neo obviously isn't helping, but it seems plausible the A380plus might help insofar as the over-engineered wing (for a higher MTOW A380-900 that will never happen, though maybe for an A380-800F, esp. as a conversion that might happen) becomes more optimised for the MTOW of the A380-800 and closes the gap with fuel consumption.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These things are always cyclical, the big birds will come back into fashion. Whether the A380 lasts long enough for it to happen, who knows. It wasn't the plane for the times, which is a shame as it's a brilliant bit of kit.

 

[gsnedders]

Here's a thing I'm curious about: what will BA do if Heathrow slots continue to be hard to get? What flights will they cut or merge into a single larger flight? Thoughts?

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's a thing I'm curious about: what will BA do if Heathrow slots continue to be hard to get? What flights will they cut or merge into a single larger flight? Thoughts?

Come HS2, I can't see there being a need for so many flights to Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow Edinburgh; that could release 10 slots. Although by then, the third runway will be open.

If the Eurostar service to Amsterdam takes off, particularly if inbound immigration can be resolved, then I can see 10 slots coming off there also.

It will be interesting to see what happens with BAs low cost long haul initiative, Level, and if that comes to London (presumably Gatwick or Stansted) what impact that has on the busier Trans Atlantic routes, ie NYC.

 

[dcsprior]

Come HS2, I can't see there being a need for so many flights to Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow Edinburgh; that could release 10 slots. Although by then, the third runway will be open.

If the Eurostar service to Amsterdam takes off, particularly if inbound immigration can be resolved, then I can see 10 slots coming off there also.

It will be interesting to see what happens with BAs low cost long haul initiative, Level, and if that comes to London (presumably Gatwick or Stansted) what impact that has on the busier Trans Atlantic routes, ie NYC.

I expect a majority of BA's domestic passengers at Heathrow are connecting to/from another flight. Those passengers aren't going to switch to HS2, and reducing the frequency of the domestic flights will make the connecting ones harder to sell.

 

[gsnedders]

I expect a majority of BA's domestic passengers at Heathrow are connecting to/from another flight. Those passengers aren't going to switch to HS2, and reducing the frequency of the domestic flights will make the connecting ones harder to sell.

My experience on Glasgow flights is that it's a minority who are connecting, actually. That said, I don't think HS2 will have much effect on the Scottish market: it's still over 3:30 to both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Even with the English airports, I'd be surprised if connecting passengers are dominant: we'd surely expect direct flights from the UK's second largest city if connecting passengers could sustain the flow. And it's worthwhile noting that the post-HS2 journey time from Newcastle is comparable to the journey time from Manchester today: it's not implausible that Newcastle will remain viable, though I expect it will kill the Manchester flights.

 

[atillathehunn]

Connecting passengers absolutely are dominant from Manchester, without a shadow of a doubt. Each and every time I'm on that flight I can overhear the destinations, and then when we disembark there's an enormous string of us heading to connections, and one or two turning left for arrivals. With the train speeds and convenience what they are from central Manchester (and surroundings - Liverpool, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Chester) there is no hope of being cost or time richer for taking the flight. I'll bet you a dollar that Manchester flights remain hale and hearty.

From Newcastle it's different - there are domestic passengers. Scotland is a heady mixture of both, and so the timing of the flight will determine whether it's predominantly domestic or connecting. Those flights which arrive at LHR in time for a big bank of departures will be connection heavy and priced to match. Else it will be domestic.

HS2 isn't set up for connections - which is stupid btw - and so will not be used.

The Eurostar to Amsterdam will take maybe 100 leisure travellers off the flights, and a few business travellers. It absolutely will not release 10 slots. BA have recently become much more aggressive targeting passengers for connections from NL and BE. The reason I used them this time for this trip was in part price, and in part the number of flights they offer as options.

 

[AlterEgo]

Come HS2, I can't see there being a need for so many flights to Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow Edinburgh; that could release 10 slots. Although by then, the third runway will be open.

If the Eurostar service to Amsterdam takes off, particularly if inbound immigration can be resolved, then I can see 10 slots coming off there also.

It will be interesting to see what happens with BAs low cost long haul initiative, Level, and if that comes to London (presumably Gatwick or Stansted) what impact that has on the busier Trans Atlantic routes, ie NYC.

I seem to recall that some slots at Heathrow are reserved for domestic use - and that you can’t just “convert” them to long haul slots. I might be mistaken though.

 

[AlterEgo]

My experience on Glasgow flights is that it's a minority who are connecting, actually. That said, I don't think HS2 will have much effect on the Scottish market: it's still over 3:30 to both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Even with the English airports, I'd be surprised if connecting passengers are dominant: we'd surely expect direct flights from the UK's second largest city if connecting passengers could sustain the flow. And it's worthwhile noting that the post-HS2 journey time from Newcastle is comparable to the journey time from Manchester today: it's not implausible that Newcastle will remain viable, though I expect it will kill the Manchester flights.

A few years back someone on Flyertalk posted stats from some BA or IAG presentation on how many of BA’s passengers on domestic routes were connecting vs point to point. MAN came out at something like 55/45 in favour of connectees if I recall. The rule of thumb was the further away the domestic airport, the lower the percentage of connectees and the higher the percentage of point to pointers. Belfast City was something like 25/75 - London being practically inaccessible by any other mode of transport of course. Bear in mind that those stats are based of ticketing data and not passenger behaviour, so it won’t pick up “hidden” connections where passengers actually have a second ticket with a different airline, say with Emirates to Dubai. I expect there are a few of those.