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Bald Rick

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So, you are saying that Heathrow, which is desperately trying to build a third runway as it has no contingency at all in 'normal' pre-coronavirus operations, should ensure that there is no contingency on the two runways it has by allowing BA and others to consolidate flights there? You couldn't make it up. Heathrow has the opportunity to ENSURE that it has say 10% free capacity in future without any new runway. The third runway will not be needed anyway as fewer people will fly as a result of lack of cash, businesses will use more video conferencing, which works pretty well and costs sod all compared to freeloading round the world at company expense.

Heathrow is trying to build a new runway not for contingency, but to grow traffic by 60%.

I agree the third runway will not be needed for some time now, if ever, but it is safe to assume that in the new world, runway capacity at Heathrow will be fully utilised before any of the other London airports.
 
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packermac

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So, you are saying that Heathrow, which is desperately trying to build a third runway as it has no contingency at all in 'normal' pre-coronavirus operations, should ensure that there is no contingency on the two runways it has by allowing BA and others to consolidate flights there? You couldn't make it up. Heathrow has the opportunity to ENSURE that it has say 10% free capacity in future without any new runway. The third runway will not be needed anyway as fewer people will fly as a result of lack of cash, businesses will use more video conferencing, which works pretty well and costs sod all compared to freeloading round the world at company expense.
Heathrow may or may not want to do that, why should BA have to suffer all the extra costs of a split operation, especially when the industry is close to collapse. Anyway LHR may end up with more than a 10% contingency through the after effects of this anyway.
I tend to believe you may be right about business travel declining, although that was said after 9/11, SARS, the financial crash etc. It may have more chance now as the tech is better, but some stuff can only be done effectively face to face.
You seem to regard personal travel as sacrosanct where surely we should be actively discouraging it, especially short haul, where more should be put on rail
 

GRALISTAIR

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I said wherever possible. Perhaps I should have said wherever reasonably possible. Even then yours or my definition of reasonable may of course differ. Therein lies the problem. Full disclosure I have nearly 2 million miles logged by air.
 

Aictos

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Also our definition of “short Haul” will probably differ.

You mean like if you have to cross from New York to Los Angeles would not be classed as short haul but New York to Toronto would be?


Equally for me, I believe more rail travel should be used then flights which is what the French Govt is doing as part of their conditions for bailing out Air France as they want any journey which is less then 2.5 hours to transfer to SNCF to reduce CO2 emissions.

Air France ordered to curb competition with rail in France

ONE of three conditions imposed on Air France in exchange for a €7bn coronavirus aid package is that it will stop competing with TGV services where rail offers a viable alternative.

“I want to reiterate that this support for Air France is not a blank cheque,” France’s economy and finance minister, Mr Bruno Le Maire, told the Economic Affairs Committee of the National Assembly on April 29.

The ban on short-haul domestic air travel will apply to routes where trains offer a journey time of 2h 30min or less. This means Air France will no longer be able to sell tickets for domestic travel on flights between Paris and Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes or Rennes. Only passengers using these flights to connect with flights to other destinations will be allowed to travel by air.

“The plane should no longer be a means of transporting [people] in one hour or one hour 15 minutes which could be done at lower cost of CO2 by train in two hours or two hours 30,” Le Marie told BFM TV. “This must be the rule and we will enforce it.”

Le Marie wants Air France to be more profitable, more competitive, and the most environmentally friendly airline. Air France will have to reduce its CO2 emissions per passenger-km by 50% between 2005 and 2030 and cut CO2 emissions on its short-haul flights by 50% by the end 2024. Air France will also have to reach target of using 2% of its fuel from sustainable sources by 2025.


 

matacaster

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Heathrow may or may not want to do that, why should BA have to suffer all the extra costs of a split operation, especially when the industry is close to collapse. Anyway LHR may end up with more than a 10% contingency through the after effects of this anyway.
I tend to believe you may be right about business travel declining, although that was said after 9/11, SARS, the financial crash etc. It may have more chance now as the tech is better, but some stuff can only be done effectively face to face.
You seem to regard personal travel as sacrosanct where surely we should be actively discouraging it, especially short haul, where more should be put on rail

No, I don't think personal travel is sacrosanct at all. Occasional holidays involving flying to far-away places should be sufficient, (say quota of 1 per year per family?) increased prices will likely enforce this desirable outcome. Trains should be used for virtually all existing internal UK flights (excepting Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc. Rail provision to distant parts of continental europe should embrace couchettes from Scotland, the north of England, Wales and the west.
 

Aictos

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No, I don't think personal travel is sacrosanct at all. Occasional holidays involving flying to far-away places should be sufficient, (say quota of 1 per year per family?) increased prices will likely enforce this desirable outcome. Trains should be used for virtually all existing internal UK flights (excepting Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc. Rail provision to distant parts of continental europe should embrace couchettes from Scotland, the north of England, Wales and the west.

Sleeper services from Scotland to Europe are not feasible and I can explain why below:

Well you lost the argument right at the start. Given that in normal times the Cally sleeper loses over £100 for every single passenger trip (including those in the seats, and those who use it as a day service in Scotland), no sleepers in this country will ever be ‘profitable’.

And the concept of a weekly sleeper? Spending upwards of £30m on rolling stock that makes 100 trips a year?

I'm afraid without a collosal gauge clearance programme, the surviving sleepers are going to be fighting a losing battle against simple economics.

We can't pack enough sleeping berths into the trains to make it worthwhile.
If we had a finnish loading gauge and a 25m vehicle could have 38 sleeping berths.... the situation might be different.

To put it into context - Scotland to Berlin would be in the order of 20 hours, and the entire market from the whole of Scotland to the whole of Germany could fit on two return trains a day. The number of people who would happily pay more, to take ten times as long to make the journey would be in single figures a day, if that.

All posts were from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-sleeper-routes.203885/

So I can't see how a sleeper service from Scotland to Europe will be successful if existing services aren't viable and lose money.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Trains should be used for virtually all existing internal UK flights (excepting Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc. Rail provision to distant parts of continental Europe should embrace couchettes from Scotland, the north of England, Wales and the west.

My daughter used to fly Manchester - Aberdeen regularly. That is definitely short-haul and reasonably doable by train.
 

packermac

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A quote over the weekend from United
“On average we are only carrying about 10,000 passengers per day. About 21% of our mainline flights have fewer than 10 revenue customers on board. We currently have more pilots than passengers on any given day,” the note said.
One does wonder how much longer before carriers start falling like dominoes.
Also as a BA shareholder who like everyone else was forced into a transition to Spanish Shares in IAG ( a Spanish registered company) not impressed to see the Spanish Government providing money for Iberia and Vueling only in the group.
Also interesting to see the approved deal for state aid to Air France.
Stipulations include being a “good customer” for European plane manufacturer Airbus. They also require Air France to scrap short-haul domestic routes where there is a train connection available under 2 1/2 hours, to help cut carbon emissions.
 

packermac

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The US may well offer subsidy. Planes are to them like trains are to us.
They have I think it is called the CARES programme. Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Security. Can not lay anyone off until October and you have to pay at least half of it back I believe (which came as a shock to them).
 
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ainsworth74

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As a temporary measure we've decided to lock this thread for the time being. The overwhelming majority of content has recently been duplicated in the aviation thread which can be found in the Covid-19 sub-forum here. This is understandable as it's perhaps the greatest existential threat to the airline industry since 9/11 if not ever in the modern era! However to avoid duplication of effort we've decided to lock the thread for the time being. Recent posts have been moved to the linked thread and you are all welcome to continue the discussion there.

We will keep the situation under review and will re-open this thread in due course. In the meantime if anyone has a subject which is not related to Covid-19 and would usually be raised in this thread then please feel free to report this post and we will look at re-opening the thread to allow discussion of that topic. But it really must be something that has nothing to do with Covid-19 as otherwise it either fits into the linked thread or should be posted in a new thread in the Covid-19 sub-forum.

I hope that makes sense,
ainsworth74
 

CC 72100

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Afternoon,

Hopefully somebody with a little more knowledge that me can help me with this question..

On the face of it, it seems like the A350 is a very similar aircraft in terms of specs and use to the A330. With the A350 being the 'new' model, what's the point of the A330-neo and what are the differences (and how big are these differences) between the A350 and A330-neo to justify the manufacture of both planes?

Over to the experts..!
 

Bald Rick

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Essentially, the biggest A330neo (900, what most operators have bought) is smaller than the smallest A350 (900).

On that comparison, the A350 can typically carry 20-30 more passengers, 9 tonnes more cargo, for the same range and speed. I suspect the fuel efficiency per passenger is better than the A330neo also.

The larger A350-1000 adds in another 40-50 passengers and 15t of cargo, plus an extra 1100km range.
 

FQTV

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Afternoon,

Hopefully somebody with a little more knowledge that me can help me with this question..

On the face of it, it seems like the A350 is a very similar aircraft in terms of specs and use to the A330. With the A350 being the 'new' model, what's the point of the A330-neo and what are the differences (and how big are these differences) between the A350 and A330-neo to justify the manufacture of both planes?

Over to the experts..!

Reportedly, it’s basically down to price and, subsidiarily, range.

The A330 Neo is last generation aluminium with some more efficient engines, aerodynamics and avionics than the original (‘Ceo’).

The A350 is new generation composite, plus more efficient engines etc.

This makes it, officially, about 10% more expensive than the A330, but has lower operating costs and longer range.

If you’re an airline that doesn’t need the range and the heightened benefits of lower operating costs over those ranges, but would like a new fleet (and potentially more gross numbers of aircraft) then you might decide that A330 is a better fit.

That said, not many airlines have thought that way, and the A330 Neo is being outsold significantly by A350 and, of course, Boeing 787.

So, it may not be offered all that much longer.
 

Speedbird96

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Afternoon,

Hopefully somebody with a little more knowledge that me can help me with this question..

On the face of it, it seems like the A350 is a very similar aircraft in terms of specs and use to the A330. With the A350 being the 'new' model, what's the point of the A330-neo and what are the differences (and how big are these differences) between the A350 and A330-neo to justify the manufacture of both planes?

Over to the experts..!

Believe it or not, when the Airbus A350 was initially being designed as a concept back in the 2000s, it was suppose to be a newer Airbus A330 with new wings and engines... With the advent of the Boeing 787 and popularity of the Boeing 777, the design specs changed with the Airbus A350 featuring a new design such as a larger fuselage, bigger and higher thrust Rolls-Royce Trent XWB engines, increased cargo and higher maximum take-off weight specifications which Airbus continues to improve upon. The Airbus A330neo is simply what the original Airbus A350 should have been...

Indeed, the Airbus A330neo was launched following extensive discussions with airlines, notably Air Asia X and Delta Air Lines.

The Airbus A330neo (and indeed the previous generation Airbus A330) and Airbus A350 fulfils completely different roles. The Airbus A350 competes mainly with the Boeing 777, providing more capacity for passengers and cargo compared to its smaller Airbus A330neo counterpart.

The Airbus A330neo competes mainly with the Boeing 787 but is mainly optimised for transatlantic flights and larger regional flights compared to the Airbus A350. It should be remembered that when Airbus designed the original Airbus A330, it was only ever designed for high-capacity regional and shorter transatlantic flights however specs did changes overtime.
 

Speedbird96

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Reportedly, it’s basically down to price and, subsidiarily, range.

The A330 Neo is last generation aluminium with some more efficient engines, aerodynamics and avionics than the original (‘Ceo’).

The A350 is new generation composite, plus more efficient engines etc.

This makes it, officially, about 10% more expensive than the A330, but has lower operating costs and longer range.

If you’re an airline that doesn’t need the range and the heightened benefits of lower operating costs over those ranges, but would like a new fleet (and potentially more gross numbers of aircraft) then you might decide that A330 is a better fit.

That said, not many airlines have thought that way, and the A330 Neo is being outsold significantly by A350 and, of course, Boeing 787.

So, it may not be offered all that much longer.

I wouldn't count out the Airbus A330neo just yet... The Boeing 787 still has a massive backlog at present and there are a larger portion of previous generation Airbus A330s that will be coming up for retirement in the near future which Airbus will certainly be keeping a close eye on. Given the US and China's fractured relationship at present, Airbus might have the upper hand with future orders within China. Having said that, we have seen that Boeing has been aggressive when it comes to negotiating for future Boeing 787 orders.

For context, I wouldn't lump in the Airbus A350 as that is not a fair comparison as that fulfils a completely different market compared to what the Airbus A330neo is targeted for.
 

gsnedders

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The Airbus A330neo (and indeed the previous generation Airbus A330) and Airbus A350 fulfils completely different roles. The Airbus A350 competes mainly with the Boeing 777, providing more capacity for passengers and cargo compared to its smaller Airbus A330neo counterpart.
Though it must be said that the A350-1000, the largest A350, is only comparable to the 777-8, the smallest 777X. Thus far Airbus has elected not to make a further stretch of the A350; in some ways it is hampered by it's comparatively narrow cabin (the 777X should comfortably fit 10-abreast seating in economy, the A350 makes it very much a push).

The A350 is also further optimised for cruise performance (and hence its longer range); it's quite plausible it's cheaper to operate the A330neo on shorter routes, despite the fuel-burn advantage of the A350 at cruise.

More generally, if you're already an operator of the A330 and want a similar-sized aircraft, you now have an aircraft with minimal training required to convert to the new model.
 

Speedbird96

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Though it must be said that the A350-1000, the largest A350, is only comparable to the 777-8, the smallest 777X. Thus far Airbus has elected not to make a further stretch of the A350; in some ways it is hampered by it's comparatively narrow cabin (the 777X should comfortably fit 10-abreast seating in economy, the A350 makes it very much a push).

The A350 is also further optimised for cruise performance (and hence its longer range); it's quite plausible it's cheaper to operate the A330neo on shorter routes, despite the fuel-burn advantage of the A350 at cruise.

More generally, if you're already an operator of the A330 and want a similar-sized aircraft, you now have an aircraft with minimal training required to convert to the new model.

A further stretch of the Airbus A350 beyond the -1000 has been studied as it became evident the Boeing 777-9 was at the time selling better than the current Airbus A350-1000 back in 2018. Plans do change of course...

The original purpose of the Airbus A350-1000 was to replace the Airbus A340-600 from its line-up and compete against the current Boeing 777-300ER which is nearing the end of its production run before transitioning to the Boeing 777X. It's evident that the Boeing 777-8 is slowly dying and its not even been produced yet as the Airbus A350-900ULR and the Airbus A350-1000ULR for Qantas (if that ever happens with Project Sunrise!) were built to maximise range over payload. The Boeing 777-8s were only ever ordered by Emirates, Etihad and Qatar and those orders are slowly being cancelled or converted to the larger Boeing 777-9. It's basically the Boeing 777-200LR all-over again!

Airbus has been quite smart as it targets the Airbus A350 to replace older Boeing 777s, and there's no reason to doubt the Airbus A350-1000 could potentially capitalise on Boeing 777-300ER retirements when the time arises within the next decade... We already know that Japan Airlines plan to retire their fleet of domestic Boeing 777-200s and Boeing 777-300ERs (which includes 2 prototypes) in favour of Airbus A350s.

The Airbus A330neo was primarily designed to offset the upfront purchase cost compared to the Boeing 787, and the type is best maximised for 8-10 hour flights, similar to the previous Airbus A330ceo. Of course, the backlog is far less than the Boeing 787 as that arrived first and has already earned itself a reputation for cutting operating costs with less fuel-burn compared to the Boeing 767 and Airbus A330ceo. The Boeing 787-10 however is still slow selling at the moment given its in the niche of being optimised specifically for regional and 12 hours flights (although the airframe is performing better than expected as evidenced by United having operated them between Washington-Dulles to Shanghai), though its very likely that will also target future Airbus A330 retirements.
 

CC 72100

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All - thanks for your responses, much appreciated. Look like (as it often is) the devil is in the detail.
 

FQTV

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I wouldn't count out the Airbus A330neo just yet... The Boeing 787 still has a massive backlog at present and there are a larger portion of previous generation Airbus A330s that will be coming up for retirement in the near future which Airbus will certainly be keeping a close eye on. Given the US and China's fractured relationship at present, Airbus might have the upper hand with future orders within China. Having said that, we have seen that Boeing has been aggressive when it comes to negotiating for future Boeing 787 orders.

For context, I wouldn't lump in the Airbus A350 as that is not a fair comparison as that fulfils a completely different market compared to what the Airbus A330neo is targeted for.

Part of the issue/uncertainty/opportunity is probably that the generic aircraft ‘classes’ that have endured since the 60s and 70s have quite rapidly started to change.

Whereas these ‘classes’ were almost defined by Boeing 737, Boeing 727/757, Boeing 767, Boeing 777 and Boeing 747, that’s no longer the case so much.

The 747s are disappearing; 777 has become bigger and more efficient; 787 has become bigger than 767 and spectacularly more efficient; 727/757 has gone, and 737 has also grown in size and efficiency.

However, the 737 hasn’t extended far into 757 territory, and 787 has left 767 territory almost completely behind.

Airbus sees A321 LR being a 757 replacement that Boeing can’t itself fulfil, and A330 Neo as a more like-for-like 767 replacement than 787, with the latter’s higher (official) acquisition cost.

It’s almost as if Airbus is trying to position some models ‘half a class’ between what Boeing has ended up with, doing so quite cheaply with tweaked models whose development costs are almost completely already covered.
 

Speedbird96

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Part of the issue/uncertainty/opportunity is probably that the generic aircraft ‘classes’ that have endured since the 60s and 70s have quite rapidly started to change.

Whereas these ‘classes’ were almost defined by Boeing 737, Boeing 727/757, Boeing 767, Boeing 777 and Boeing 747, that’s no longer the case so much.

The 747s are disappearing; 777 has become bigger and more efficient; 787 has become bigger than 767 and spectacularly more efficient; 727/757 has gone, and 737 has also grown in size and efficiency.

However, the 737 hasn’t extended far into 757 territory, and 787 has left 767 territory almost completely behind.

Airbus sees A321 LR being a 757 replacement that Boeing can’t itself fulfil, and A330 Neo as a more like-for-like 767 replacement than 787, with the latter’s higher (official) acquisition cost.

It’s almost as if Airbus is trying to position some models ‘half a class’ between what Boeing has ended up with, doing so quite cheaply with tweaked models whose development costs are almost completely already covered.

I can definitely agree to a certain extent... It’s definitely true that during the 1960s and 1970s, the aircraft market astly different to what we see now.

Whilst I lean more towards Boeing, I don’t think you give credit to Airbus where it’s due... The Airbus A300 whilst a slow seller became the first successful twin-engine wife-body jet, the Boeing 767 enhanced the twin-engine design. The A320 family proved to be far more versatile than the Boeing 737, it’s no wonder the Airbus A321 continues to outsell the largest Boeing 737s.

Boeing has made modifications to their end-of-line Boeing 777-300ERs, their earliest best sellers such as the Boeing 777-200ERs has seen airlines go for the Airbus A330 as Airbus finally saw the foresight to increase the MTOW of the airframe. Indeed, the Airbus A330 was designed to be under-optimised against the Airbus A340, but that changed when it ended production in 2010. Today’s Airbus A330 are far more capable compared to the earliest examples, hence them becoming more easier to find work in the second-hand market.

The only market the Boeing 787s take-over from the Boeing 767 is the smallest variant, the 787-8; otherwise the Boeing 787-9/10s goes into the lower ends of the Boeing 777. The Airbus A330neo was never designed to replace the Boeing 787 but to compete against it and the only Boeing 767s they are replacing are Delta’s in the near future.

The end of the Boeing 747 as a passenger aircraft is certainly cemented, as a freighter with final deliveries for UPS still shows some slim demand left.

Both Airbus and Boeing are guilty of doing ‘half a class’, Airbus has proven to be somewhat better at it. The pretty much dominate the narrow-body market whilst they streamline their wide-body offerings.
 

FrodshamJnct

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Not looking good for the BA 747 fleet. All training and recency formally suspended today for the approx 600 BA 747 pilots.
 

FQTV

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Not looking good for the BA 747 fleet. All training and recency formally suspended today for the approx 600 BA 747 pilots.

Tragic, but probably the right decision.

Those YouTube videos with four RB211s spooling up on one of the 27s at Heathrow will be like that one of the GNER HST drawing out of Newcastle.

Magnificent but filthy.
 
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Not looking good for the BA 747 fleet. All training and recency formally suspended today for the approx 600 BA 747 pilots.

Some are likely to return to service, but retirements will be accelerated, unless the plug is going to be pulled on the entire fleet.

I think it unlikely that the 5 aircraft that were sent into storage at Teruel in Spain, at the start of April, will return to BA service.
Similarly, the 2 aircraft at Kemble will probably be chopped up there.
As of today, BA have only 9 747-400's in storage at Heathrow, with 14 others at their Cardiff maintenance base.

Further A350-1000 deliveries and the arrival of the first B787-10's, alongside a reduced LH schedule, should see a need for fewer 747's to be kept in service, than was originally planned for the last couple of years of their BA life.
 

Tetchytyke

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wife-body jet

With boobs and bum? :lol:

(Sorry, couldn't resist, the typo just made me giggle)

Both Airbus and Boeing are guilty of doing ‘half a class’, Airbus has proven to be somewhat better at it. The pretty much dominate the narrow-body market whilst they streamline their wide-body offerings.

Definitely, it's one way they seem to try and out-do each other. Segmentation has gone out of the window, all the classes seem to overlap a lot more than they ever did before.

I'm not sure Airbus do dominate the narrow-body market, the B737 had plenty of takers, but what happens after MAX I don't know. They still seem no closer to getting that plane back in the sky. Every month it goes on pushes another airline towards the A320/321.

Airbus have never quite got to grips with maximising freight capacity, though. That, as much as anything, did for the A380. When a B777 can carry more freight, airlines will go with Boeing. Even Emirates did, even despite their love of the A380.

I suppose one thing we do know is that the market for superjumbos is dead. At least for now. As airports become more slot-restricted, I do think things might change back. Even the new B777 won't cut the mustard then.
 

Royston Vasey

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Some are likely to return to service, but retirements will be accelerated, unless the plug is going to be pulled on the entire fleet.

I think it unlikely that the 5 aircraft that were sent into storage at Teruel in Spain, at the start of April, will return to BA service.
Similarly, the 2 aircraft at Kemble will probably be chopped up there.
As of today, BA have only 9 747-400's in storage at Heathrow, with 14 others at their Cardiff maintenance base.

Further A350-1000 deliveries and the arrival of the first B787-10's, alongside a reduced LH schedule, should see a need for fewer 747's to be kept in service, than was originally planned for the last couple of years of their BA life.
Yes the capacity will still be needed for the JFK route for sure (in terms of total capacity but more importantly J capacity) but I doubt we'll see the same elasticity of demand for the unrefurbished 747s to places like PHX, AUS, DEN etc. These birds were already going to go anyway.

I'm not in the camp that believes demand for air travel will be permanently irretrievably damaged by the current situation; it may take a while to come back though and by that time BA will have all their 18 351s, 9+ 779s and 12 781s.

The 744s have long been amortised and as such their activity can flex depending on the pace of recovery without really hitting the bottom line... as long as the pilots maintain their type rating.
 
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WatcherZero

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Stelios has lost (the little) control he had of Easyjet, he previously had a super shareholder agreement which gave him extra powers for calling shareholder votes, appointing directors and holding the board to account as long as his shareholding remained over 30% (useful in his many battles with the board) but now his shareholding has fallen below that figure and the agreement has been officially terminated by the company.
 
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