Aviation Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
...its just not really a British carrier when it only provides a meaningful service to one part of England.
On the contrary, it connects me in Scotland (which is part of Britain) to over 100 destinations around the world. I call that a meaningful service.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
1,532
Don’t a lot of airlines within Europe do the same as British Airways? Fly out to other cities in the country but converge everything on their main hub.

Air France for example, they operate domestic routes within France but converge most if not all of them on Paris.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
Though a fair bit of fuel costs has historically been heavily hedged. BA for example were very heavily bitten by this at the start of the pandemic: they had contracts in place for a pretty large amount of fuel, which they were still obliged to pay even if they weren't using the fuel.
That doesn't, however, represent wasted money. They still own the fuel so it just means that they've got capital tied up in fuel contracts rather that sitting in the bank. Depending on what happens with fuel prices as the economies of the world get going again it could still net them a decent return.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,204
On the contrary, it connects me in Scotland (which is part of Britain) to over 100 destinations around the world. I call that a meaningful service.

No it connects you with London. It doesn't connect you with the world more than KLM, Air France or Lufthansa services from Scotland do.

Don’t a lot of airlines within Europe do the same as British Airways? Fly out to other cities in the country but converge everything on their main hub.

Air France for example, they operate domestic routes within France but converge most if not all of them on Paris.

Flag carriers from small countries tend to exclusively run flights from one airport. The trend for larger countries is the same but its normal to run some meaningful international services from secondary airports. If you think of all the international non budget airline services that run from Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow, it shows it could be a true national carrier but chooses not to. Its a perfectly valid commercial decision but it shouldn't lobby government as the "national" carrier. Virgin Atlantic is closer to being a British national carrier. BA runs a handful of token international services on a seasonal and weekly basis using spare planes e.g. city flyer planes that can't use London City Airport during weekly banned period.
 

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
1,532
No it connects you with London. It doesn't connect you with the world more than KLM, Air France or Lufthansa services from Scotland do.



Flag carriers from small countries tend to exclusively run flights from one airport. The trend for larger countries is the same but its normal to run some meaningful international services from secondary airports. If you think of all the international non budget airline services that run from Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow, it shows it could be a true national carrier but chooses not to. Its a perfectly valid commercial decision but it shouldn't lobby government as the "national" carrier. Virgin Atlantic is closer to being a British national carrier. BA runs a handful of token international services on a seasonal and weekly basis using spare planes e.g. city flyer planes that can't use London City Airport during weekly banned period.

Apparently BA did have a relatively large amount of regional bases with regional flights, with the last closing in 2007, which was Glasgow. However by that point their international routes from Secondary airports was decimated, with Glasgow only retaining Shuttle work.

I heard the staff who worked at the base, were told they had two weeks to either relocate to the mixed fleet at Heathrow or find other work. The staff were furious and even attempted to get the decision overturned, as most of them had been with BA since the 90s. It was sad.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
1,408
Location
Wilmslow
I don't find BA meets my needs, I'm within walking distance of Manchester Airport. BA cancelled the direct Manchester-New York flight many years ago, it used the JFK "slots" for a Gatwick-New York service instead, which was also withdrawn after a couple of years.

BA "connecting" flights often require many hours of mooning around Heathrow on the way home before the onward flight to Manchester, it's very tedious and I normally go by train instead. On the way out the connections seemed better but as a result BA managed to lose my luggage between flights (to be fair, this was before T5).

But it's their commercial decision, I make mine to use just about any airline apart from BA, I'm happy with that too.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
No it connects you with London. It doesn't connect you with the world more than KLM, Air France or Lufthansa services from Scotland do.
I put my bag on the scales at Edinburgh and collected it in Barbados, so that's good enough for me.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
12,079
Location
Epsom
I just had Air Force One low overhead in Epsom en route to Heathrow; anyone know which one is on the current visit? 82-8000 or 92-9000 please?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
Was Marine One here as well for the visit ?

Do they have a Navy One or Army One ?
Yes. Any US Military aircraft carrying the president takes the call-sign "<branch> One" - so the helicopter from the White House to Joint Base Andrews is Marine One while (s)he is on board.

And seeing that they normally have at least one Marine helicopter included in the advance detail (the C-17s that precede the president on overseas trips) then there was potential for Marine One while he was here.
 

heart-of-wessex

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
2,915
Location
Trowbridge
Thank you.:)

Must make sure of marking the right one off in the aircraft equivalent of the Combined Volume... :)

Lucky you! I've seen a VC-25 a few years ago over Trowbridge yet lost record of it now I don't know which other one I need, and thebobe today didn't come this way :(

Did you see the C-32 which was behind it a bit later on that also went to LHR?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
68,037
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It did operate quite substantially domestically under the BA Connect brand. That was flogged to flybe in the mid 2000s. Now whatever happened to them?

The people blaming BA here are just brainless. The main issue lies with the government. Too much resistance/ too little investment in infrastructure, and too high domestic taxes.
Why are we still talking about a privately funded third runway at Heathrow decades on? Why does a flight from London to Paris or Brussels pay less tax than a flight from London to Newcastle or Edinburgh?

What on earth do we want more highly polluting domestic flying for? We want rid of it, and HS2 provides a great opportunity to do so.
 

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
160
Location
London
I was at Heathrow and saw both AF1 and the C32A.

About half an hour before AF1 arrived, six helicopters including two of the USAF helicopters that the president uses flew in. I was in the wrong place to get some decent snaps of the copters but here is a link to my flickr site with pics of both AF1 and the C32A arriving. Its amazing to see how gleaming these aircraft are. Some serious elbow grease has gone into making sure these planes look absolutely immaculate:

Keith Wood | Flickr
 

heart-of-wessex

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
2,915
Location
Trowbridge
I was at Heathrow and saw both AF1 and the C32A.

About half an hour before AF1 arrived, six helicopters including two of the USAF helicopters that the president uses flew in. I was in the wrong place to get some decent snaps of the copters but here is a link to my flickr site with pics of both AF1 and the C32A arriving. Its amazing to see how gleaming these aircraft are. Some serious elbow grease has gone into making sure these planes look absolutely immaculate:

Keith Wood | Flickr
o_O o_O o_O

Absolute quality pictures there! That really does show the high polish gleam!

Only managed to get one of the G7 aircraft over here, and that was 80-1111 from the Japanese AF. 80-1112 went on the same track but missed it as was having dinner so wasn't paying attention to the radar <(:(:(

If the arrivals at London were from the West end, might have had a slight better chance
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
12,079
Location
Epsom
Lucky you! I've seen a VC-25 a few years ago over Trowbridge yet lost record of it now I don't know which other one I need, and thebobe today didn't come this way :(

Did you see the C-32 which was behind it a bit later on that also went to LHR?
Yes; 09-0016... what surprised me was it was put in the Ockham stack and made at least six or seven orbits close to me before eventually joining the approaches; I would have thought it should have received the same priority...?
 

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
160
Location
London
Yes; 09-0016... what surprised me was it was put in the Ockham stack and made at least six or seven orbits close to me before eventually joining the approaches; I would have thought it should have received the same priority...?
The operation this afternoon was interesting. All arrivals should have been on 27L. However at about 14:30, the airspace around the southern runway was closed and all flights directed onto 27R. This gave a clear path in for both AF1 and the C32. The helicopters were the first to arrive and flew into LHR across the airport north to south before turning right to land on 27L also; presumably near the VIP terminal. The large crowds who had gathered at Myrtle Ave would have got a grandstand view of those arrivals. AF1 then landed about 16:15 on 27L. I was in the field behind the football club as that offers better views/photographic opportunities of arriving aircraft on 27L and AF1 was my primary interest.

After AF1's arrival, one assumes that there was some choreographed event enabling the president to transfer from AF1 to the helicopter for the final leg into Windsor. There was a suggestion from the gathered crowd that the helicopters took longer than anticipated to clear the area thus delaying the arrival of the C32 which was put into a holding pattern before landing on 27L about 17:00. All the while all other traffic was still landing/departing on 27R. I believe that 27L was scheduled to be out of use until approx 19:00 when AF1 was due to leave for Brussels. Not sure if it actually left this evening or whether plans changed (unlikely given the military precision of these ops).

Hope the above is of interest and thankyou "heart-of-wessex" for the kind comments re the pictures.
 

Aictos

On Moderation
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,344
What on earth do we want more highly polluting domestic flying for? We want rid of it, and HS2 provides a great opportunity to do so.
And until HS2 is fully open to Scotland then using Easyjet etc will be the cheapest method although not the most environmental way of getting from London to Scotland as a example it's cheaper for me to book Luton to Edinburgh with Easyjet then Luton to Edinburgh via rail so until that changes or until LNER return a decent 1st Class service with complimentary refreshments then flying reminds my preferred option.
 

Butts

On Moderation
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
10,285
Location
Stirlingshire
What on earth do we want more highly polluting domestic flying for? We want rid of it, and HS2 provides a great opportunity to do so.

Speak for yourself, if you lived in Inverness your opinion may differ somewhat.

Air is always a lot faster and often cheaper to boot.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
Air is always a lot faster and often cheaper to boot.
CF my point earlier in the thread: How often do people actually *need* that speed vs how often is it a convenience? What if you could travel Inverness to London in say 4 hours door to door for a comparable price to flying?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
19,202
Air is always a lot faster and often cheaper to boot.

Not always. As ever, it depends on your start / finish point and timings.

If you live in Islington, and want to get to Princes Street for lunchtime, the train will always be quicker. Usually cheaper as well end to end, almost certainly if you have a big bag.
 
Last edited:
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
602
........All the while all other traffic was still landing/departing on 27R. I believe that 27L was scheduled to be out of use until approx 19:00 when AF1 was due to leave for Brussels. Not sure if it actually left this evening or whether plans changed (unlikely given the military precision of these ops).

AF1 left Heathrow for Brussels as planned, followed by the C32A shortly afterwards.

AF1 took an unusually circuitous routing which allowed the C32A time to effectively "overtake" and get to Brussels ahead and land first.
AF1 departed Heathrow to the SW, routing down to Southampton and the IOW, before turning east and flying along the south coast all the way to Dover, before following the normal route to Brussels.

There were actually 2 C32A's at Newquay.
99-0003 departed the day before on Saturday afternoon and flew to Brussels, presumably with an advance party of officials and security?

3 support C17's flew into Newquay, after AF1 had departed.
2 from Ramstein and later on, one from Mildenhall.
Callsigns (Reach) RCH221, RCH414 and RCH990 respectively.
They all passed over Southampton on the way into Newquay.
The first 2 departed later on for Prestwick, presumably making a refuelling stop before crossing the Atlantic, back to the US?
The last one, RCH990 returned to Ramstein very late in the evening.
These would have been collecting the presidential motorcade and other security vehicles, along with other "equipment".

At least one C17 brought helicopters into Culdrose before the event, but these may have been taken away from elsewhere, following the flights between Heathrow and Windsor Castle on Sunday afternoon.
(A few C17's have been in and out of Fairford, both yesterday and today.)


Living not far from Southampton and despite not being anywhere near Cornwall, or London Heathrow, I had a good view of many of the VIP and support aircraft attending, as they flew over the area on their way to or from Newquay.
The weather was clear with not a cloud in the sky.

Apart from the C32A on Saturday afternoon, that passed directly overhead (FL290) on it's way to Brussels, on Sunday, I also saw.......

2x German Air Force A319's (15+01 & 15+02)
One flew in from Germany and held at high level over the Torbay area for over an hour before the leaders started departing.
I thought it had come to collect Mrs. Merkel, but when the other one got airborne from Newquay, heading back to Berlin (which I assume had Frau Merkel onboard), the aircraft holding at high level turned around and headed back to Germany, just a few minutes ahead of Mutti's plane.

Not long afterwards, the Japanese government 777 flew over, climbing out of Gatwick (up to FL200) where it had been parked, heading the other way back to Newquay to pick up the Japanese Prime Minister.
Simultaneously, the first of the USAF C17A's (RCH221) came into view immediately just behind it, arriving from Ramstein at a much higher level and 'trailing'. It started it's long descent into Newquay overhead Southampton, following the Japanese 777.

Again, very soon after that, I saw the Korean President's B747 passing to the south of us, climbing out from the West Country, on its way to Vienna.
It was already high enough to be 'trailing".

Then AF1 passed overhead just to the south of us, on its way into Heathrow, followed by the C32A 09-0016 (c/s SAM46).

Next, Mr & Mrs Boris flew over in the brand new, UK government liveried, Titan Airways A321Neo - ZT646, on their way back to Stansted.
Followed later by Aussie PM Scott Morrison in an RAAF KC30A (A330-200), also going to Stansted.

In between there was a privately registered Falcon 900 and a French Air Force Falcon (900 or 7X ?) both routing overhead from Newquay to Brussels (A VdL. & Charles Michel in one of them perhaps?).

The other aircraft leaving Newquay, including Mario Draghi's Italian AF A319, another FAF Falcon, South African president Cyril Ramaphosa's 737-BBJ and Justin Trudeau's CC-150 (A310), didn't come anywhere near Southampton, unfortunately.
All in all, I was quite lucky to see all the ones I did see, considering we're nowhere near Cornwall.




.
 
Last edited:

Butts

On Moderation
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
10,285
Location
Stirlingshire
CF my point earlier in the thread: How often do people actually *need* that speed vs how often is it a convenience? What if you could travel Inverness to London in say 4 hours door to door for a comparable price to flying?

We are talking about reality not fantasy !!

Not always. As ever, it depends on your start / finish point and timings.

If you live in Islington, and want to get to Princes Street for lunchtime, the train will always be quicker. Usually cheaper as well end to end, almost certainly if you have a big bag.

Tube to London City and onto BA Cityflyer to Edinburgh using the Airport 100 Link or Tram at the other end ?

Timed correctly that would be well under four/five hours the train takes.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
We are talking about reality not fantasy !!
True. Inverness-London is stretching things a bit, but post HS2 and HSR Scotland it should be possible to do central Aberdeen to central London just around the five hour mark. For most people that's likely to be fast enough - you can leave Aberdeen around lunchtime and be checked into your hotel and watching a show in the evening having had a much less stressing journey.
 

TravelDream

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2016
Messages
373
Some people just hate the idea of good connectivity to the regions.

It's very much 'I'm alright guv' type stuff.

For people who live in Belfast, Inverness and many other places, London is a very long way by land transport (and sea to NI) and is totally nonviable for business daytrips.

We are talking about reality not fantasy !!



Tube to London City and onto BA Cityflyer to Edinburgh using the Airport 100 Link or Tram at the other end ?

Timed correctly that would be well under four/five hours the train takes.
These comparisons are very difficult to make as it is highly dependent on where you are starting/ finishing and the time of departure.

In London, there are a hell of lot of people who live and work closer to London City or Heathrow than Euston. That poster makes out Londoners all live upstairs from the Edinburgh platform...

From London - Edinburgh, there'll be many combinations where the train is faster and many where an aircraft will.

Price also varies, though a flexible Y class return will certainly be less than an anytime rail return. I'd also bet the cheapest airfare each day is almost always less than the lowest train fare.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
68,037
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
For people who live in Belfast, Inverness and many other places, London is a very long way by land transport (and sea to NI) and is totally nonviable for business daytrips.

You are working on the assumption that long-distance business daytrips are a good thing. They are not. The vast majority of them are simply an excuse for a jolly.
 

TravelDream

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2016
Messages
373
You are working on the assumption that long-distance business daytrips are a good thing. They are not. The vast majority of them are simply an excuse for a jolly.

You clearly have never been on a business trip.

As someone who has been on multiple, I can assure you they are not in any way a 'jolly'. In fact, they can be bloody awful.

Oh, and they are not a 'good thing', they are essential in many sectors.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
68,037
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
You clearly have never been on a business trip.

Au contraire, I was a prolific business traveller until about 5 years ago when the IT industry largely realised most of them served no purpose and could be done virtually instead.

Oh, and they are not a 'good thing', they are essential in many sectors.

They really aren't. And if you're going to want to go to London a lot, living (or basing your business) somewhere that expedites doing that without using an extremely environmentally unfriendly mode of transport is a good bet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top