Aviation Discussion

[najaB]

Oh, and they are not a 'good thing', they are essential in many sectors.

Day trips rarely are. Having done many of them you're usually not fully awake in the morning having had to leave home early, and you spend the afternoon hurrying through the agenda to make sure you don't miss your train/flight home. My current job doesn't require many physical meetings these days - mainly because anything under three days is done over Webex/Teams.

 

[Bald Rick]

Timed correctly that would be well under four/five hours the train takes.

Well, the timings aren’t correct for every trip. To be on Princes St for 1230, and flying, you’d need to leave Islington at 0700, as there is an LCY flight at 0840, LTN at 0850, or LHR flight at 0920. By train, you could leave Islington 0730 for a comfortable walk to Kings Cross and the 0800.

My point is that air isn’t always quicker - for some trips the train is quicker. For my regular trips to Scotland, I will sometime drive, sometimes train to Glasgow / Edinburgh and hire a car, or fly to GLA / EDI and hire a car. Door to door there is rarely more than an hour in it, and ifthe time I need to be in Scotland doesn’t match with flight times from Luton the train is always quicker. (And, for me, much more comfortable, and cheaper).

From London - Edinburgh, there'll be many combinations where the train is faster and many where an aircraft will.

Exactly my point.

 

[nlogax]

Day trips rarely are. Having done many of them you're usually not fully awake in the morning having had to leave home early, and you spend the afternoon hurrying through the agenda to make sure you don't miss your train/flight home. My current job doesn't require many physical meetings these days - mainly because anything under three days is done over Webex/Teams.

Day trips suit me fine. Last time I had cause to do one (September) I was at GLA at an early hour, had a full day's workshop in London, back to GLA and in through the front door for a late-ish dinner. In term of waking hours it was no different than any other day.

 

[busesrusuk]

AF1 left Heathrow for Brussels as planned, followed by the C32A shortly afterwards.

AF1 took an unusually circuitous routing which allowed the C32A time to effectively "overtake" and get to Brussels ahead and land first.
AF1 departed Heathrow to the SW, routing down to Southampton and the IOW, before turning east and flying along the south coast all the way to Dover, before following the normal route to Brussels.

There were actually 2 C32A's at Newquay.
99-0003 departed the day before on Saturday afternoon and flew to Brussels, presumably with an advance party of officials and security?

3 support C17's flew into Newquay, after AF1 had departed.
2 from Ramstein and later on, one from Mildenhall.
Callsigns (Reach) RCH221, RCH414 and RCH990 respectively.
They all passed over Southampton on the way into Newquay.
The first 2 departed later on for Prestwick, presumably making a refuelling stop before crossing the Atlantic, back to the US?
The last one, RCH990 returned to Ramstein very late in the evening.
These would have been collecting the presidential motorcade and other security vehicles, along with other "equipment".

At least one C17 brought helicopters into Culdrose before the event, but these may have been taken away from elsewhere, following the flights between Heathrow and Windsor Castle on Sunday afternoon.
(A few C17's have been in and out of Fairford, both yesterday and today.)


Living not far from Southampton and despite not being anywhere near Cornwall, or London Heathrow, I had a good view of many of the VIP and support aircraft attending, as they flew over the area on their way to or from Newquay.
The weather was clear with not a cloud in the sky.

Apart from the C32A on Saturday afternoon, that passed directly overhead (FL290) on it's way to Brussels, on Sunday, I also saw.......

2x German Air Force A319's (15+01 & 15+02)
One flew in from Germany and held at high level over the Torbay area for over an hour before the leaders started departing.
I thought it had come to collect Mrs. Merkel, but when the other one got airborne from Newquay, heading back to Berlin (which I assume had Frau Merkel onboard), the aircraft holding at high level turned around and headed back to Germany, just a few minutes ahead of Mutti's plane.

Not long afterwards, the Japanese government 777 flew over, climbing out of Gatwick (up to FL200) where it had been parked, heading the other way back to Newquay to pick up the Japanese Prime Minister.
Simultaneously, the first of the USAF C17A's (RCH221) came into view immediately just behind it, arriving from Ramstein at a much higher level and 'trailing'. It started it's long descent into Newquay overhead Southampton, following the Japanese 777.

Again, very soon after that, I saw the Korean President's B747 passing to the south of us, climbing out from the West Country, on its way to Vienna.
It was already high enough to be 'trailing".

Then AF1 passed overhead just to the south of us, on its way into Heathrow, followed by the C32A 09-0016 (c/s SAM46).

Next, Mr & Mrs Boris flew over in the brand new, UK government liveried, Titan Airways A321Neo - ZT646, on their way back to Stansted.
Followed later by Aussie PM Scott Morrison in an RAAF KC30A (A330-200), also going to Stansted.

In between there was a privately registered Falcon 900 and a French Air Force Falcon (900 or 7X ?) both routing overhead from Newquay to Brussels (A VdL. & Charles Michel in one of them perhaps?).

The other aircraft leaving Newquay, including Mario Draghi's Italian AF A319, another FAF Falcon, South African president Cyril Ramaphosa's 737-BBJ and Justin Trudeau's CC-150 (A310), didn't come anywhere near Southampton, unfortunately.
All in all, I was quite lucky to see all the ones I did see, considering we're nowhere near Cornwall.




.

Thanks for the background. Would've been good to see all those planes lined up at Newquay but highly likely you wouldn't have got within miles of the place.

Given the primary nature of the event its a shame our idiot couldn't have got the train there and back. I'm sure it would have been cheaper to charter a train than fly there. Not least that he seemed to end up in Stansted - some miles from where he presumably was going back to (no10). Perhaps he should have had a chat with queenie as she seemed to cope with the train ride...

 

[najaB]

Day trips suit me fine. Last time I had cause to do one (September) I was at GLA at an early hour, had a full day's workshop in London, back to GLA and in through the front door for a late-ish dinner. In term of waking hours it was no different than any other day.

Lucky you. I never had one that wasn't a complete and total pain in the arse.

 

[TravelDream]

Exactly my point.

I was agreeing with you

Lucky you. I never had one that wasn't a complete and total pain in the arse.

Are they a jolly or a pain in the arse? Anti-aviation posters on here can't seem to agree.

I've been on several which could have been done distance, but most couldn't have been. Most businesses have been very focused on value in terms of travel since at least the last economic crisis.

All of the ones that could have been done distance (or even me not there at all) are ones that have been beyond a total pain in the arse.

Worst of all are the daytrips I've done from Hong Kong to Singapore, a four hour flight each way, for something I wasn't really involved in. Leaving home at 6am and getting back at midnight is in no way my idea of fun or a 'jolly'. There were cultural issues and all that involved though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worst of all are the daytrips I've done from Hong Kong to Singapore, a four hour flight each way, for something I wasn't really involved in. Leaving home at 6am and getting back at midnight is in no way my idea of fun or a 'jolly'. There were cultural issues and all that involved though.

Any company that even vaguely cares about its staff wouldn't be asking them to do that and would fork out for a hotel.

 

[najaB]

Are they a jolly or a pain in the arse?

Depends on if you're choosing to go (a jolly) or being sent (a pain in the arse).

Anti-aviation posters on here can't seem to agree.

I'm actually very pro-aviation, and love flying. But as I always say: when I get on a plane I want to disembark on the other side of an ocean, not somewhere I could easily get by train/coach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm actually very pro-aviation, and love flying. But as I always say: when I get on a plane I want to disembark on the other side of an ocean, not somewhere I could easily get by train/coach.

I too quite enjoy flying, but it has its purpose, and as you say that is when you need to go a very long way. Domestic flying, with a few exceptions (e.g. the Highlands and Islands "puddle jumpers", which are probably ripe for very early electrification), really does need deprecating. I'm not totally sure I'd be that bothered about the couple of flights a day from London to Inverness and Aberdeen either, but really nobody should be flying from Glasgow/Edinburgh to London or vice versa when the train can do it in about 4 hours, and Manchester is really only for connections so could be replaced, post HS2, with a code-share (to protect the connection) and a connection at Old Oak.

 

[philosopher]

You are working on the assumption that long-distance business daytrips are a good thing. They are not. The vast majority of them are simply an excuse for a jolly.

In most cases I find business daytrips can be done via videoconferencing, however there are exceptions, for example for site visits. However they do make the working week somewhat more interesting as it is often an opportunity to see somewhere new or meet new people, so I do think there is quite a bit of appeal to them. That said, I do think such meetings, due to the environmental costs of flying, should be either done by train or videoconference if possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In most cases I find business daytrips can be done via videoconferencing, however there are exceptions, for example for site visits. However they do make the working week somewhat more interesting as it is often an opportunity to see somewhere new or meet new people, so I do think there is quite a bit of appeal to them. That said, I do think such meetings, due to the environmental costs of flying, should be either done by train or videoconference if possible.

What's also worth doing is consolidating them - for instance, practice in IT now is to go on site for a week for workshops early in a project rather than working entirely on site and doing bitty meetings. It takes better planning but is really better for everyone.

 

[Aictos]

I need to be in Scotland doesn’t match with flight times from Luton the train is always quicker. (And, for me, much more comfortable, and cheaper).

I find the opposite to be true, I find the train to be so expensive as I can fly for a fraction of the rail ticket so something is wrong there if it's more expensive to fly then get the train.

Of course I used to use LNER a lot whenever I went up to Scotland as I used to get 1st Class advances but as they don't offer a decent 1st Class service, there's very little difference between using them and Easyjet so I tend to fly with Easyjet and plan around the flights instead especially as they're far far cheaper.

 

[TravelDream]

Any company that even vaguely cares about its staff wouldn't be asking them to do that and would fork out for a hotel.

It wasn't SOP and was my choice to go and return on the same day.
They were quite unusual as well and not something that would normally be done. Visits usually packed more in as it were.
In general, the company is very travel reticent. As I said, I think little travel happens in most businesses nowadays (pre Covid) unless it's really necessary.

 

[Bald Rick]

I find the opposite to be true, I find the train to be so expensive as I can fly for a fraction of the rail ticket so something is wrong there if it's more expensive to fly then get the train.

That’s interesting. I’m toying with going to Scotland in a couple of Thursday’s time, leaving London after work and meeting friends in Edinburgh, then driving that evening to stay somewhere near Stirling or Perth then off to the hills Friday morning. 1630 or 1700 from the Cross are £35. To be fair so is the 1950 EZY from Luton, assuming I don’t want to choose my seat, extra legroom or hold luggage (I need the latter two, which adds £35) and I’d have to get to Luton first (£18.40), so a total of nearly £90. However if I wanted to fly from Heathrow or City (anytime after the first flight of the day!), I’d be looking at around £150.

So in this case, the train fare is a fraction of the air fare. There really are some good deals out there for London - Scotland, and will be more so when East Coast trains start up in the autumn.

(Or I could get the lowlander up Thurs pm for £220, but that doesn’t compare well to the day train fare and £35 for the Travelodge).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what helps is that the Super Off Peak Single provides a fare cap unless travelling at peak times, air fares can and often do go above this.

 

[Aictos]

That’s interesting. I’m toying with going to Scotland in a couple of Thursday’s time, leaving London after work and meeting friends in Edinburgh, then driving that evening to stay somewhere near Stirling or Perth then off to the hills Friday morning. 1630 or 1700 from the Cross are £35. To be fair so is the 1950 EZY from Luton, assuming I don’t want to choose my seat, extra legroom or hold luggage (I need the latter two), and I’d have to get to Luton first (£18.40) However if I wanted to fly from Heathrow or City (anytime after the first flight of the day!) , I’d be looking at over £100.

So in this case, the train fare is a fraction of the air fare. There really are some good deals out there for London - Scotland, and will be more so when East Coast trains start up in the autumn.

(Or I could get the lowlander up Thurs pm for £220, but that doesn’t compare well to the day train fare and £35 for the Travelodge).

Well the times I've headed to Scotland, I've found the rail fares to be over £100 easily in any case if I travel on LNER then I like to sit back and relax with a couple of free whiskys in 1st Class, as that's not available then I be flying in a few months especially as I want to tick off a new Scottish airport.

 

[TravelDream]

That’s interesting. I’m toying with going to Scotland in a couple of Thursday’s time, leaving London after work and meeting friends in Edinburgh, then driving that evening to stay somewhere near Stirling or Perth then off to the hills Friday morning. 1630 or 1700 from the Cross are £35. To be fair so is the 1950 EZY from Luton, assuming I don’t want to choose my seat, extra legroom or hold luggage (I need the latter two, which adds £35) and I’d have to get to Luton first (£18.40), so a total of nearly £90. However if I wanted to fly from Heathrow or City (anytime after the first flight of the day!), I’d be looking at around £150.

Do you work at King's Cross station? You're counting the fare to Luton, but not any fare to King's Cross.

I think you are being a little unfair with BA too. They have a 'traditional' fare structure so a return is often less than a single. In fact, you should always check a return fare isn't cheaper on a non-low cost carrier. Even if you don't use the return portion, you might save money.

Not to sound creepy, but I had a look and leaving a week Thursday and returning the Monday after can be had for £115 on BA. Luggage and seat selection is +£10 per leg so £135 in total if you need that.

A quick check on LNER's site tells me the evening departures on the same Thursday are all £74-£90 or sold out. The cheapest Monday return is £50. That's £125 so very comparable in price, but longer in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you work at King's Cross station? You're counting the fare to Luton, but not any fare to King's Cross.

I think you are being a little unfair with BA too. They have a 'traditional' fare structure so a return is often less than a single. In fact, you should always check a return fare isn't cheaper on a non-low cost carrier. Even if you don't use the return portion, you might save money.

Be careful doing this. I don't know about BA, but US carriers are well known to zero the frequent flyer balances of people they suspect did it deliberately more than the odd time, as it's in breach of T&C to do it.

 

[Gloster]

Be careful doing this. I don't know about BA, but US carriers are well known to zero the frequent flyer balances of people they suspect did it deliberately more than the odd time, as it's in breach of T&C to do it.

If I remember correctly, some years ago there was a test case involving one of the Channel ferry companies that ruled on this. The decision was that, if you buy a return ticket (that is cheaper than a single) when you have no intention of using the return half, the company is entitled to claim the difference from you. However, if you buy such a ticket when you are uncertain as to whether or not you will make the return journey, that is legitimate. (How you prove your thinking I know not.) Despite the various different organisations involved, I presume that the legal situation with air tickets is pretty well the same.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you work at King's Cross station? You're counting the fare to Luton, but not any fare to King's Cross.

Close enough to walk. But, if I didn’t (and wasn’t near a central London Thameslink station), then the cost of getting to Kings X for the train to Scotland would be much the same as the cost of getting to a Thameslink station for Luton; hence I discounted it.

I think you are being a little unfair with BA too. They have a 'traditional' fare structure so a return is often less than a single.

Ah, I didn’t know that.

Not to sound creepy, but I had a look and leaving a week Thursday

I’m thinking two weeks Thursday.

in any case if I travel on LNER then I like to sit back and relax with a couple of free whiskys in 1st Class

You won’t be sitting back, relaxing, or enjoying free whisky on easyJet!

 

[najaB]

The decision was that, if you buy a return ticket (that is cheaper than a single) when you have no intention of using the return half, the company is entitled to claim the difference from you. However, if you buy such a ticket when you are uncertain as to whether or not you will make the return journey, that is legitimate. (How you prove your thinking I know not.) Despite the various different organisations involved, I presume that the legal situation with air tickets is pretty well the same.

Which is why they don't attempt to claim the fare 'due' from the passenger, they hit them where consumer law doesn't protect them: frequent flyer balances. They have also been known to refuse to carry the passenger again in extreme cases.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Back in the late 1990's I manged to make two next-day midweek returns from Stanstead to Bologna for about £100 in total on GO Airways by buying two returns and using them out of sequence.

They soon clamped down on that little trick though.

 

[najaB]

Back in the late 1990's I manged to make two next-day midweek returns from Stanstead to Bologna for about £100 in total on GO Airways by buying two returns and using them out of sequence.

Yeah. These days the best you can do is a A -> B return with a B -> A return in between the first one's dates.

 

[Butts]

I too quite enjoy flying, but it has its purpose, and as you say that is when you need to go a very long way. Domestic flying, with a few exceptions (e.g. the Highlands and Islands "puddle jumpers", which are probably ripe for very early electrification), really does need deprecating. I'm not totally sure I'd be that bothered about the couple of flights a day from London to Inverness and Aberdeen either, but really nobody should be flying from Glasgow/Edinburgh to London or vice versa when the train can do it in about 4 hours, and Manchester is really only for connections so could be replaced, post HS2, with a code-share (to protect the connection) and a connection at Old Oak.

Why are people exercising this option against your wishes in their thousands every year ?

If we ever catch you on a shuttle you'll be offloaded at 38,000 feet without a parachute !!

Next you will be telling us the best way to get from Newquay to Sumburgh is by train and then rowing boat from Thurso or Wick

 

[TravelDream]

The traditional flag carrier fare structures aren't always transparent just like the railways.

Which is why they don't attempt to claim the fare 'due' from the passenger, they hit them where consumer law doesn't protect them: frequent flyer balances. They have also been known to refuse to carry the passenger again in extreme cases.

I think you'd have to be doing it pretty frequently for them to take action. If you're talking a couple of times a year, it wouldn't be noticed. Seriously, some flights go out with a quarter+ of their passengers not turning up as standard. I think picking up on one or two extreme examples from the US isn't exactly proportionate.

Another option would be a member of a FFP with a separate airline within the same alliance - though BA's is pretty decent as OW goes.
It would be more viable on the continent to be a member of Aegean, but mainly use Lufty Group.

 

[Aictos]

Close enough to walk. But, if I didn’t (and wasn’t near a central London Thameslink station), then the cost of getting to Kings X for the train to Scotland would be much the same as the cost of getting to a Thameslink station for Luton; hence I discounted it.





Ah, I didn’t know that.




I’m thinking two weeks Thursday.



You won’t be sitting back, relaxing, or enjoying free whisky on easyJet!

Yes my point is as I won't get free whisky on LNER, there's little difference except price and time between LNER and easyJet.

 

[najaB]

Why are people exercising this option against your wishes in their thousands every year ?

The point that @Bletchleyite was making is that it's a failure of UK travel and environmental policy that flying is often the more attractive option. We need to do more to make it easier/cheaper/more convenient for most people to travel in a less energy-intensive manner.

I think you'd have to be doing it pretty frequently for them to take action. If you're talking a couple of times a year, it wouldn't be noticed.

Yes. This has only been done to people who were blatantly abusing the system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point that @Bletchleyite was making is that it's a failure of UK travel and environmental policy that flying is often the more attractive option. We need to do more to make it easier/cheaper/more convenient for most people to travel in a less energy-intensive manner.

Indeed, and while HS2 is part of that other things are as well, such as shifting work culture away from "9am meetings" or even travel where not necessary. Universal fibre to the premises broadband would also help.

But really, there doesn't need to be much of a shift to wipe out Edinburgh and Glasgow-London flying, and Manchester-London just requires HS2 and codesharing (easy connection at Old Oak). Low single figures of flights to/from Inverness and Aberdeen probably aren't worth bothering about.

 

[Aictos]

The point that @Bletchleyite was making is that it's a failure of UK travel and environmental policy that flying is often the more attractive option. We need to do more to make it easier/cheaper/more convenient for most people to travel in a less energy-intensive manner.

The ability of UK Governments to do this doesn't fill me with confidence as more would have been done by now.

As it is, the UK needs to do a awful lot more to shift demand from air to rail and make the impact that Eurostar made on the London to Paris route.

Also the APD should changed to be higher the further you fly so a flight from London to Helsinki would have less APD taxed on the flight then a flight from London to USA or Australia.

 

[TravelDream]

The point that @Bletchleyite was making is that it's a failure of UK travel and environmental policy that flying is often the more attractive option. We need to do more to make it easier/cheaper/more convenient for most people to travel in a less energy-intensive manner.

All of this I totally agree with. I can't imagine anyone not agreeing with it.

The truth is though, long-distance rail transport is often too slow outside of a few core corridors and too expensive. Heavily subsidised trains are often more expensive than heavily taxed (did I mention the highest aviation taxes in the world?) airlines.

Edinburgh is just one example we've discussed. The fastest train is around 4 hours 20 minutes. Flights are between 1 hour 15 to 1 hour 25. Flight schedules are also heavily padded at Flightradar tells me most almost all do gate to gate in less than 60 minutes.
London to Aberdeen takes seven to seven and a half hours. Flights take 90-100 minutes. You get the point.

Some people on this thread don't seem to realise that you have to learn to walk before you can run (i.e. you have to get rail infrastructure and fares right before you stop flights).