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Aviation Discussion

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starrymarkb

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Looks like BMI's purchase by IAG was a real bargain!

A report in The Sunday Times states the following:

"British Airways’ purchase of BMI British Midland is the deal — or should that be steal — of the year.

IAG, BA’s parent company, completed the acquisition quietly last week, save for the continued and fruitless protests of Sir Richard Branson, the majority shareholder in Virgin Atlantic.

Analysts and BA investors know it’s a smart deal for BA, consolidating its grip on Heathrow. But nobody has yet twigged just how good it is.

BA said it would pay Lufthansa £172.5m for BMI. That figure would be revised down if two of BMI’s subsidiary airlines, BMI Baby and BMI Regional, weren’t sold before the deal completed.

They weren’t. BA hasn’t revealed what the price came down to as a result, but insiders say it was about £20m. For that, BA receives 42 pairs of runway slots at Heathrow — the proverbial hen’s teeth of world aviation. That’s £476,000 a pair, an absolute snip when you consider slot pairs have regularly changed hands for £5m, and even £10m when a carrier was particularly desperate to push its snout into the Heathrow trough. When BMI valued its slots three years ago, it reckoned they were worth £770m.

While Willie Walsh, IAG’s chief executive, chuckles, BMI’s pilots and other staff fume. Their pension fund has a £100m deficit and has been handed over to the Pension Protection Fund (PPF), the government lifeboat for schemes whose supporting employer has disappeared.

Their retirement payments are likely to be limited to a maximum of £34,000. Long-serving pilots and executives would have expected much more. Lufthansa has tried to ease the pain with the payment of another £84m into a separate fund outside the PPF, but it’s not clear yet whether that will make up the shortfall."
 
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SwindonPkwy

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Wow, that is indeed a bargain. So, with all those extra slots, will they be able to accommodate the extra flights from Terminal 5? I can't see them wanting to use Terminal 1 any longer than they need to. I can see the ex CO United flights moving to T1 in place of BMI but what about the remaining 'non aligned' carriers at T3? Are there any plans for Emirates to move to T4? Qantas used to operate A380's from there. Obviously, there could be Etihad and Qatar A380's still to come and I'm not sure how many compatible gates there are or will be needed. Interesting times.
 

LE Greys

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Wow, that is indeed a bargain. So, with all those extra slots, will they be able to accommodate the extra flights from Terminal 5? I can't see them wanting to use Terminal 1 any longer than they need to. I can see the ex CO United flights moving to T1 in place of BMI but what about the remaining 'non aligned' carriers at T3? Are there any plans for Emirates to move to T4? Qantas used to operate A380's from there. Obviously, there could be Etihad and Qatar A380's still to come and I'm not sure how many compatible gates there are or will be needed. Interesting times.

They could potentially sell the slots and make a killing. I was rather hoping that Aberdeen-Gatwick would come back, but that's probably not going to happen.
 

SwindonPkwy

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LE Greys said:
They could potentially sell the slots and make a killing. I was rather hoping that Aberdeen-Gatwick would come back, but that's probably not going to happen.

I expect we will see a mixture; some BMI destinations will be cancelled or transferred to LGW whilst new long haul destinations will be added together with additional frequencies on existing routes. I can't see them selling any of the slots outright. BA seem to prefer 'slot sitting'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
flymo said:
Also not sure how many gates are 'A380 ready' but the A380 taxiway map is available from the NATS website. Might offer some info.

That is a very interesting map, not least the size of the new T2 construction site. Judging from the taxiways around T4, possibly only two gates are A380 equipped. I guess Emirates are going to be in T3 a while longer, along with all the remaining Star Alliance members waiting for T2.
 

WestCoast

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They could potentially sell the slots and make a killing.

The main reason BA (well, IAG) is buying bmi is because of the Heathrow slots, they have absolutely no interest in the rest of the business. Pairs of Heathrow slots have reportedly traded hands for anything up to £5m. Market dominance is also a factor, but they can't do that without the slots.

I was rather hoping that Aberdeen-Gatwick would come back, but that's probably not going to happen.

Not with Flybe on the route, whose flights can be booked through BA.

It will be interesting to see what routes remain. bmi has changed its strategy and route map so many times in recent years, routes range from Tehran to Dublin.

It's not certain what will happen to bmibaby or bmi Regional, but IAG is trying to sell them.
 

starrymarkb

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I see Flybe are trying to shake their low cost and high fee reputation

Flybe said:
Flybe Announces Major Brand Re-positioning With 'making Flying Better'
Flybe, Europe’s largest regional airline and the UK’s Number One domestic carrier, has today announced a significant brand and product repositioning under the strapline ‘Making flying better’ that will bring together major new initiatives throughout 2012 to positively differentiate it from some of the negative perceptions of low fare travel.

Andrew Strong, Flybe UK MD explains: “We have listened to what our customers and the wider market are telling the industry. ‘Making flying better’ is Flybe’s response and is a long term commitment and fundamental review of our product and brand positioning in the market.”

Flybe’s ‘Making flying better’ philosophy has three key objectives:

Increasing our flight frequency and connections to offer greater choice and flexibility.
Transparency pricing and booking processes to make it easier for our customers to understand.
To reduce the hassle of air travel through UK airports.
A number of recent initiatives by Flybe that are very much part of the ‘Making flying better’ concept, are already proving a success with passengers, particularly the arrival of the new Embraer 175 jet aircraft that are now flying across the network; and the launch of Flybe’s innovative Manchester hub that offers extra regional connections for the UK traveller.

At the heart of ‘Making flying better’ is a fair, open and transparent approach to sales and service policies. Included amongst many of the new product initiatives to be rolled out during 2012 are the following that have been introduced today

No charges for customers paying by debit card
Credit card customers being charged on a per booking basis regardless of the number of passengers in the booking
Creation of three new ticket types:
1. Essentials: this is Flybe’s lowest fare ticket that has no debit card charges, 10kg hand baggage allowance and seat selection at check in.
2. New Economy: A brand new ticket which, in addition to the free use of cards and 10kg hand bag allowance, also includes - in one upfront inclusive price - a free standard sized hold bag, free advance seat selection at the time of booking, a changeable ticket (which may incur a fare upgrade) plus a free SMS text message detailing the booking information. Prices for this ticket start at under £50.
3. Plus: Flybe has retained its top end product with a ticket that includes all the flexibility and comfort a short haul business traveller needs, including Executive Lounge access, a 40kg hold bag allowance and complimentary food and drink on board.
The airline has also launched a new website and new-look advertising creative, including a soon-to-be aired series of TV commercials all featuring Flybe’s own pilots and cabin crew.
Hot on the heels of this initial launch will see Flybe offering its customers smart phone enabled platforms and Apps that will allow booking and check in for travellers on the move.

The airline then plans for a Flybe first with summer trials of inflight TV programming and entertainment available free of charge for its passengers through onboard wi-fi. Additional product and service enhancements are due to follow throughout the year.

In further commenting on Flybe’s new philosophy, Mr Strong adds: “In better serving our passengers and making the flying experience better for them, I want Flybe to be seen as fair and our pricing to be transparent. We have listened to what our passengers have told us about the entire process of travel – the things they enjoy and the things they would like changed, from booking through to check-in and then to the flight itself. We know from our customers that they rank the Flybe experience highly but also that their expectations have, quite understandably, changed over the years. By introducing service improvements like our New Economy product, the removal of debit card charges and the utilisation of more technology throughout the journey, we hope our passengers will appreciate that Flybe is raising its game once again.

“Making flying better’ is more than a slogan. It is a promise to our passengers that we will make flying better, more straightforward and fair and, as always, with a quality service-led approach.“
 

Ascot

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I see Flybe are trying to shake their low cost and high fee reputation

Looks promising and I'm tempted to shift a few of the Birmingham-Belfast trips back to them from Baby. I'd like to see an iPhone app from them and a shake-up of rewards4all in all honesty.
 

Schnellzug

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This is not the final livery, for some reason they've not finished it, should look like....
getasset.aspx

Hardly a patch on v < or v > , though, is it?
 

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WestCoast

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The most turbulent approach I can remember was on a windy day in Athens, where the airport is surrounded by hills amplifying the crosswinds. It was very shaky and the unexpected drops seemed to scare some passengers.
I also had a go-around last year at Manchester, where the winds were gusting rather strongly. However, as the old piloting saying goes, "if you can walk away from it, it's a good landing".
 

Heinz57

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Does anyone know if there are any plans to shift bmi over to T5? To be with the rest of IAG

Maybe this could happen if and when T5 D is constructed?
 

flymo

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Best I've ever seen courtesy of Korean Air at the now-closed Kai Tak.

And that wasn't even a windy day!!! So many memories of Kai-Tak, I landed there 6 time in all from 1994 - 1998 and it always made me tighten my grip on the armrests during the final right hand turn.
The best vantage points were either the top (7th) floor of the adjacent car park (6th if raining :D) or the checkerboard hill in Lok Fu a mile or so away. Absolutely brilliant.

The best pilots were the Cathay pilots who landed there pretty much every day and the worst were the Japanese (JAL, ANA), Koreans (as you have posted) and the Italians (Alitalia). All of these seemed to fly more 'interesting' approaches. Even seen a BA 747 having to go around as he messed up the approach and was almost over the taxiway.

The new airport at Chek Lap Kok is usually boring by comparison but the location gives humungous amounts of windshear and very bumpy landings sometimes.
 

SwindonPkwy

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Heinz57 said:
Does anyone know if there are any plans to shift bmi over to T5? To be with the rest of IAG

Maybe this could happen if and when T5 D is constructed?

T5D is some years away because of the need to relocate the fuel farm.
T5B and C would be extended first (north & south) in order to reduce the number of flights requiring bussing to the aircraft. Given that BA will use some of the slots for new or additional long haul destinations, they will use T5 as much as they can. What they cannot accommodate will probably end up in T3, although that has no domestic facilities.
 

Heinz57

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I may be wrong here but I'm sure I read somewhere about BA thinking of moving even more of there flights from T3 to T5?
 

SwindonPkwy

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Heinz57 said:
I may be wrong here but I'm sure I read somewhere about BA thinking of moving even more of there flights from T3 to T5?

In aligning their operations more closely with Iberia, BA did move their Barcelona and Madrid flights from T3 to T5 from the start of the winter 2011 season. In their place, however, some of their Eastern European destinations moved in the opposite direction. These include Budapest, Bucharest, Prague and Warsaw, but also Gibraltar and Larnaca. The T3 flights are operated through gate 26 (A to D?) to remote stands and rely on boarding via buses. Overall, BA is not likely to reduce the number of flights it operates from Terminal 3 until Terminal 5 is extended further.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A new subject for the Aviation Discussion thread: the Boeing 787. This aircraft was Boeing's 'answer' to the Airbus A380. It claimed that instead of concentrating on VLA's between hub airports, airlines would develop more point to point services between secondary airports. To do this, both the -8 and -9 versions have a range of over 8,000 miles.

Now, I am sure that the 787 is a fine aircraft and an admirable replacement for 767's in particular. I just don't see the airline industry moving away from its 'love' of hubs inspite of many of them being slot restricted.

Does anybody else have any thoughts?
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Wouldn't the number of 787s versus 380s ordered give a bit of a clue, expecially since passengers prefer direct flights?
 

Heinz57

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I think some will take advantage of its long range.

Virgin are (or at least were) interested in setting up direct London - Honolulu and London - Perth (Aus) with the 787
 

SwindonPkwy

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As Peter rightly infers, the A380 has been very slow to take off - no pun intended. The 787 has sold well and, presumably, will continue to do so.
 

starrymarkb

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Different Markets... Emirates are filling their A380s on Hub work. The 787 seems to me to be more of a 767/A330 replacement. I can't see airlines moving away to a purely O&D model for long haul with current fuel prices
 

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A new subject for the Aviation Discussion thread: the Boeing 787. This aircraft was Boeing's 'answer' to the Airbus A380.?

Not really, Boeing's answer to the A380 is the 747-8, and the passenger version of the 747-8 has so far performed poorly against its larger rival. I am not sure why some commentators have chosen to analyse 787 vs A380, aside from the fact that they were the latest products of the two main manufacturers.

The 787 was arguably a new concept to succeed the 767 and 777-200, and the upcoming Airbus A350 is the real competitor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wouldn't the number of 787s versus 380s ordered give a bit of a clue, expecially since passengers prefer direct flights?

All very well, but if the long non-hub routes don't make economic sense they won't materialise. Virgin Atlantic could probably fill a 787 from Manchester to Honolulu, but if the yields in terms of premium fares aren't sufficient to meet rising oil prices then the route will be uneconomic. I doubt the hub and spoke model is going to disappear, in fact in the US they appear to be heading back towards that model for domestic flights.
 
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flymo

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I think some will take advantage of its long range.

Virgin are (or at least were) interested in setting up direct London - Honolulu and London - Perth (Aus) with the 787

London - Honolulu direct is about 7250miles which is do-able with the 787 but London - Perth around 9000 miles so maybe a tad beyond the range of the 787. Come to think of it, at 9000 miles is there anything that could make it, perhaps the 777-200LR but that may be weight restricted, certainly westbound.
 
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starrymarkb

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London - Honolulu direct is about 7250nm which is do-able with the 787 but London - Perth around 9000 miles so maybe a tad beyond the range of the 787. Come to think of it, at 9000 miles is there anything that could make it, perhaps the 777-200LR but that may be weight restricted, certainly westbound.

The Airbus A340-500 can do it. (it does the 10000mile Newark to Singapore) But again the only way of covering the cost of the fuel is by being Business class only (though I think they are now carrying a small Premium Economy section). There comes a point in Ultra Long Fuel where the fuel burnt in order to carry the weight of the extra fuel needed gets too much.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not really, Boeing's answer to the A380 is the 747-8, and the passenger version of the 747-8 has so far performed poorly against its larger rival. I am not sure why some commentators have chosen to analyse 787 vs A380, aside from the fact that they were the latest products of the two main manufacturers.

I believe the B748 is also struggling to hit its performance targets. I know one of the cargo companies had issue with them and Lufthansa reckon the passenger version won't be there until 2014
 

trentside

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I believe the B748 is also struggling to hit its performance targets. I know one of the cargo companies had issue with them and Lufthansa reckon the passenger version won't be there until 2014

Despite this, Lufthansa are sending out emails promising that the 747-8 will be here soon, and promoting a competition to win two free tickets.

http://747-8.lufthansa.com/en/
 

starrymarkb

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Despite this, Lufthansa are sending out emails promising that the 747-8 will be here soon, and promoting a competition to win two free tickets.

http://747-8.lufthansa.com/en/

1st of June it enters service on Frankfurt to Washington. I should elaborate that they don't think it will hit it's performance targets till 2014 (ie equal cost per seat/mile to the A380)
 
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SwindonPkwy

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starrymarkb said:
Different Markets... Emirates are filling their A380s on Hub work. The 787 seems to me to be more of a 767/A330 replacement. I can't see airlines moving away to a purely O&D model for long haul with current fuel prices

My thoughts exactly, especially when you consider the A340-500 and B777-200LR weren't exactly best sellers. With high fuel prices the number of these aircraft operating very long sectors is reducing. Thai, for example, are withdrawing their A340-500 fleet.
 
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