Aviation Discussion

[Butts]

News to me, though others likely knew. The Loganair-Flybe tie-up is coming to an end. There are banner ads on the forum promoting it as a good news story, but is it good news for Loganair? Do they benefit from Flybe's name recognition or is it more of a hinderance?

Good thing about Loganair you still got a free hold bag and refreshment even under Flybe's regime.

I thought this was not happening until August ?

Fond memories of my trip to Barra a couple of years back with the Beach landing and take off on Loganair

 

[atillathehunn]

Wahey, I like the sound of that! Good excuse to get down there and finally get Heathrow done for flyage!

Well if (I think it was Neil, possibly Alter Ego) think that the approach to LCY is the closest to a crash you can get without actually being in a crash, I would imagine that LHR approach in a Dash-8 in the wake of an A380 may result in a trip to the pants store in the airport...

I would imagine trundling through LHR in the Crash-8 around all the larger planes would be a little like being in an original Mini in the inside lane of the M6 at 50mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if (I think it was Neil, possibly Alter Ego) think that the approach to LCY is the closest to a crash you can get without actually being in a crash

Yep that was me. Skirt Canary Wharf (and bounce around in the updrafts) then point the nose at the floor, pulling up at the last minute, then full reverse thrust the second the wheels touch...

I would imagine that LHR approach in a Dash-8 in the wake of an A380 may result in a trip to the pants store in the airport...

I would imagine trundling through LHR in the Crash-8 around all the larger planes would be a little like being in an original Mini in the inside lane of the M6 at 50mph.

Something like that. I remain astonished they're not using the Embraers for LHR.

 

[atillathehunn]

Yep that was me. Skirt Canary Wharf (and bounce around in the updrafts) then point the nose at the floor, pulling up at the last minute, then full reverse thrust the second the wheels touch...



Something like that. I remain astonished they're not using the Embraers for LHR.

I have no access to the data but is it possible that they get a significant discount for using a lighter plane?

Do they have any Embraers lying around they could use?

 

[gsnedders]

I have no access to the data but is it possible that they get a significant discount for using a lighter plane?

Do they have any Embraers lying around they could use?

What were the Dundee–Amsterdam flights using before they were suspended? I've heard about three different reasons for it—poor radar coverage (it's supplied from Leuchars Station (the Army one, not the railway one!)) combined with the large amount of GA in the area of Dundee, delayed deliveries of more aircraft, and lower than expected revenue from the service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Something like that. I remain astonished they're not using the Embraers for LHR.

It's astonishing that LHR needs a new runway, yet has sufficient capacity that a ~70 seater can be slotted in.

 

[sng7]

It's astonishing that LHR needs a new runway, yet has sufficient capacity that a ~70 seater can be slotted in.

I believe a certain number of slots are reserved for uk internal flights and where previously used by Virgin Little Red hence the new Scotland to London flights using them.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I believe a certain number of slots are reserved for uk internal flights and where previously used by Virgin Little Red hence the new Scotland to London flights using them.

Yes I think these are some of the 'remedy slots' that are owned by BA/IAG - a condition of the IAG takeover of BMI imposed by the European Commission was that IAG has to relinquish them to other airlines if they fly certain routes, in these cases the specific domestic routes of Aberdeen and Edinburgh.

I believe after Little Red's demise these slots went back to IAG, but now flyBE are having a go. I think that after a period of years, perhaps three (?), the airline could then use them for other routes.

 

[ld0595]

What were the Dundee–Amsterdam flights using before they were suspended? I've heard about three different reasons for it—poor radar coverage (it's supplied from Leuchars Station (the Army one, not the railway one!)) combined with the large amount of GA in the area of Dundee, delayed deliveries of more aircraft, and lower than expected revenue from the service.

Dundee to Amsterdam were using Q400s. I think the reasoning is because of the poor radar coverage and the amount of GA from the airport which FlyBe weren't too happy with. Last I read, the airport is trying to find another operator (hoping for KLM but won't get my hopes up!) and upgrading their radars, so we'll see what happens.

I can't imagine it's due to delayed deliveries or lower than expected revenue - the load factors were very high and they even moved to a seven day operation after a few months. Similarly, I don't think it's due to delayed deliveries since the flight has moved to Edinburgh. Incidentally, it was the same flight where the gear collapsed at Schiphol a few weeks back!

 

[atillathehunn]

What were the Dundee–Amsterdam flights using before they were suspended? I've heard about three different reasons for it—poor radar coverage (it's supplied from Leuchars Station (the Army one, not the railway one!)) combined with the large amount of GA in the area of Dundee, delayed deliveries of more aircraft, and lower than expected revenue from the service.

What's GA?

 

[AlterEgo]

What's GA?

General Aviation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_aviation

 

[atillathehunn]

General Aviation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_aviation

Ah thanks that makes sense.

 

[miami]

What's GA?

General Aviation I believe - private planes and the like, not publically acceussible ones (scheduled or chartered)

 

[atillathehunn]

Thanks. This is something I hadn't come across.

I had no idea Dundee was such a hotspot!

 

[atillathehunn]

In wildly unrelated news:

EK 21/22 to/from Manchester - Dubai has been reduced to a 777 service again from an A380. Birmingham's EK41/42 has been cancelled.

The good news! Cathay Pacific is going daily from Manchester to Hong Kong.

 

[berneyarms]

In wildly unrelated news:

EK 21/22 to/from Manchester - Dubai has been reduced to a 777 service again from an A380. Birmingham's EK41/42 has been cancelled.

The good news! Cathay Pacific is going daily from Manchester to Hong Kong.

Note that these are temporary Emirates changes per Airline Routes News:

The Birmingham EK41/42 cancellation is just from 8-31 May.

The Manchester EK 21/22 switch A380 to B777 switch is from 8 May to 22 June.

 

[atillathehunn]

Note that these are temporary Emirates changes per Airline Routes News:

The Birmingham EK41/42 cancellation is just from 8-31 May.

The Manchester EK 21/22 switch A380 to B777 switch is from 8 May to 22 June.

Ah, I tried to go back to the source I got the information from originally, but I can't find it.

Slightly more reassuring news.

The extra Birmingham was cancelled for a period last year as well, which made me think this round of cancellation was a more permanent affair.

 

[berneyarms]

Here's the Airline Routes News link:
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38...ates-2q17-service-changes/?highlight=Emirates

Emirates between April and June 2017 is adjusting operations on selected routes, including aircraft changes or frequency reduction. Planned service changes as follow.

Dubai – Bangkok Service reduction from 7 to 5-6 daily
EK376/377 Cancelled during following period: 14MAY17 – 12JUN17 (Except 15MAY17, 31MAY17, 04JUN17, 06JUN17)
EK350/351 Cancelled during following period: 04MAY17 – 31MAY17 (DXB departure)

Dubai – Jeddah 26MAR17 – 30APR17 3 daily service operated by 777-300ER, replacing A380
Dubai – Manchester EK021/022 operated by 777-300ER, replacing A380 during following period: 08MAY17 – 22JUN17 (Except 21MAY17 – 31MAY17; Overall 2 daily A380, 1 daily 777)
Dubai – Perth 30APR17 – 09MAY17 EK424/425 777-200LR replaces -300ER
Dubai – Seattle EK227/228 service reductions from 7 weekly to following
05MAY17 – 21MAY17 5 weekly (Overall service reduce from 14 to 12 weekly)
22MAY17 – 11JUN17 4 weekly (Overall 11 weekly)
15JUN17 – 25JUN17 6 weekly (Overall 13 weekly)

Previously reported changes:
Dubai – Beijing 01APR17 – 30APR17 EK306/307 777-300ER replaces A380 (Overall 2 daily 777)
Dubai – Birmingham 08MAY17 – 31MAY17 Reduce from 3 to 2 daily, EK041/042 cancelled
Dubai – Dusseldorf 08MAY17 – 29JUN17 EK057/058 777-300ER replaces A380
Dubai – London Gatwick 03MAY17 – 22JUN17 EK011/012 777-300ER replaces A380
Dubai – Los Angeles 01MAY17 – 30JUN17 EK217/218 cancelled (Reduce from 2 to 1 daily)
Dubai – Munich 01MAY17 – 31JUL17 EK053/054 777-300ER replaces A380

 

[Tetchytyke]

The extra Birmingham was cancelled for a period last year as well, which made me think this round of cancellation was a more permanent affair.

It happens every year in May/June because of the reduced traffic through Dubai during Ramadan.

 

[atillathehunn]

It happens every year in May/June because of the reduced traffic through Dubai during Ramadan.

That's a lot of reduced traffic, a good number of routes there had their capacity cut.

I guess we've found the marginal effect of the strict Islamic traffic.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's a lot of reduced traffic, a good number of routes there had their capacity cut.

It's more than it has been in the past, but the capacity cuts do happen every year.

Of course, if you read PPRuNE it turns out the sky is about to fall on Emirates' head...

 

[atillathehunn]

Yes I did note that. The Emirates thread is often saltier than the Dead Sea.

I don't think there's quite so much need for the comments made on there, but Emirates demand will be levelling off. They've been the Ryanair of inter-continental travel. Often reasonable fares (though lately they've been outrageous on every route I looked at when I needed to book - I've ended up on Ethiopian, Qatar and SN Brussels instead), and the one-stop to (most) of the world through their hub. Good enough Y product on the A380. They democratised travel for diaspora in the way we have Generation easyJet in Europe.

They will find their ceiling though. The old demand won't go - world demographics show no sign of reducing movement of people just yet - but they are going to find their ceiling on existing routes. Similar numbers, flat growth.

 

[gsnedders]

I had no idea Dundee was such a hotspot!

It's a relatively small airport but close to a reasonably large number of people, with few scheduled commercial flights, but well equipped as an airfield, so it has good facilities and reasonable prices by GA standards, AFAIK.

 

[atillathehunn]

It's a relatively small airport but close to a reasonably large number of people, with few scheduled commercial flights, but well equipped as an airfield, so it has good facilities and reasonable prices by GA standards, AFAIK.

I would have no idea what a reasonable price is.

Though Liverpool also hosts a flying school and a private airfield type affair (or that's what it looks like - plenty of little planes there) and there is plenty of commercial aviation into that field. Why is Dundee such a problem for Flymaybe?

 

[gsnedders]

I would have no idea what a reasonable price is.

Though Liverpool also hosts a flying school and a private airfield type affair (or that's what it looks like - plenty of little planes there) and there is plenty of commercial aviation into that field. Why is Dundee such a problem for Flymaybe?

I don't know what a reasonable price is either, really.

As far as I'm aware, commercial and private aviation tend to be in conflict: commercial aviation wants a guarantee that it can access runways/taxiways/stands at specific times, private aviations tends to want far more flexibility. There's also far more general aviation flying "on sight" (i.e., under Visual Flight Rules) whereby the individual aircraft are in charge of maintaining separation; if you then put a comparatively fast-moving and heavy aircraft into the mix, flying under Instrument Flight Rules, it can become risky.

The problem with Dundee is, unlike most commercial aviation airports, it doesn't have any radar at it: it relies on radar coverage from Leuchars Station (formally RAF Leuchars). While the distances aren't that great, it does diminish coverage, and does diminish the ability of ATC to know where VFR aircraft are.

 

[WestCoast]

Just returned from a jaunt to Romania, flew to Bucharest outbound from Liverpool on a Blue Air 737-400 and back in to Doncaster on a Wizzair A321.

Blue Air was an interesting experience, bit of a rattly 'pre-loved' 734 with an overkill six crew members including an English new recruit for their Liverpool base doing some on the job training. Safety briefing in the emergency exit consisted of what I think was "this is the exit" in Romanian. On the plus side, very cheap and they bave relaxed rules about baggage and airport check-in. Quite a quirky little low cost carrier.

I'm flying them again to Hamburg in June so will see how it compares on their newer 737-800, Liverpool Airport is full of publicity for their new routes.

 

[atillathehunn]

Just returned from a jaunt to Romania, flew to Bucharest outbound from Liverpool on a Blue Air 737-400 and back in to Doncaster on a Wizzair A321.

Blue Air was an interesting experience, bit of a rattly 'pre-loved' 734 with an overkill six crew members including an English new recruit for their Liverpool base doing some on the job training. Safety briefing in the emergency exit consisted of what I think was "this is the exit" in Romanian. On the plus side, very cheap and they bave relaxed rules about baggage and airport check-in. Quite a quirky little low cost carrier.

I'm flying them again to Hamburg in June so will see how it compares on their newer 737-800, Liverpool Airport is full of publicity for their new routes.

Thanks for the data point. Sounds almost exactly what one might expect. They are certainly hitting Liverpool hard, good to see their buying domestic with the crew as well.

 

[atillathehunn]

air Arabia Maroc are launching a Manchester - Agadir service. Evening rotation.

Norwegian have just launched a Denver and a Seattle service from London Gatwick.

Both somewhat popular if not expensive destinations. Denver in particular is up and coming.

Seattle is beginning to look oversaturated - BA and Virgin fly there from Heathrow.

 

[Crawley Ben]

air Arabia Maroc are launching a Manchester - Agadir service. Evening rotation.

Norwegian have just launched a Denver and a Seattle service from London Gatwick.

Both somewhat popular if not expensive destinations. Denver in particular is up and coming.

Seattle is beginning to look oversaturated - BA and Virgin fly there from Heathrow.

Be interesting to see if BA or VS react to DY starting ops to/from those respective airports. Gatwick is becoming more and more busy with DY's long haul flights bringing in big numbers on each flight they operate.

Cheers

Ben

 

[atillathehunn]

Be interesting to see if BA or VS react to DY starting ops to/from those respective airports. Gatwick is becoming more and more busy with DY's long haul flights bringing in big numbers on each flight they operate.

Cheers

Ben

I think you're right to assume they will launch some kind of counter to DY's move.
Virgin's service to Seattle is replacing Delta's service, so perhaps they are more hamstrung in what they can do, and they don't presently serve Denver - perhaps scope for a service out of Gatwick?

BA on the other hand serve both out of LHR. It will be interesting to what they will do in light of the new competition.

In the past they've gone directly toe-to-toe on new DY expansions.