Aviation Discussion

[Tetchytyke]

I do struggle to see how Emirates survive on the route. They bring a daily 777-300ER in, so 140, 000 ish seats per year. The population of Newcastle is only c. 280, 000.

The population of the greater North East (Tyne and Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and Darlington, Hartlepool and Cleveland) is about 2.6m. The northern half of Cumbria adds in another 250,000 or so. There's more people than you think up here.

The prices on the 777 from Newcastle are about the same as they are on the 777 from Glasgow and the 380 from Manchester.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I still think the route will launch with a narrow body, and hence Qatar being in a better position over Emirates, who would be forced to run a widebody.

With Emirates running the 380 from Birmingham they'd be less interested in Cardiff, I'd have thought. Emirates don't fly from Edinburgh because they're in Glasgow and Newcastle.

I can't imagine seven hours on a narrowbody being appealing, it'd be a mistake. I'd probably expect a 787 or an A350 tbh.

 

[atillathehunn]

The population of the greater North East (Tyne and Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and Darlington, Hartlepool and Cleveland) is about 2.6m. The northern half of Cumbria adds in another 250,000 or so. There's more people than you think up here.

The prices on the 777 from Newcastle are about the same as they are on the 777 from Glasgow and the 380 from Manchester.



With Emirates running the 380 from Birmingham they'd be less interested in Cardiff, I'd have thought. Emirates don't fly from Edinburgh because they're in Glasgow and Newcastle.

I can't imagine seven hours on a narrowbody being appealing, it'd be a mistake. I'd probably expect a 787 or an A350 tbh.

I originally come from the region, but I've just not really considered where they go to the airport. I assumed on the West Coast they would go to Manchester.


I believe that Emirates doesn't go to Edinburgh in part because they are in Glasgow, but also because I believe the length of the runway at EDI would mean they are weight restricted on a 777.

I've used long haul narrow bodies before. In the day time they are claustrophobic and the queue for the toilet can be horrendous. But for overnight they are just the same, if not a little quieter (fewer people).

Maybe an A350/Dreamliner, but I would think they would start small - it's a market to test.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the smaller widebodies (like the 767's 2-3-2 layout, which has only one "bad" seat per row) are the best compromise for the passengers, FWIW.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just snagged a seat on KLM's last ever Fokker 70 operation from Humberside. I needed this to cheer me up after missing out on the Trislander flight.

29th October it is - all the F70s head back to AMS on that morning, and then to (possibly) scrap.

End of an era!

(Also a fine opportunity to scratch HUY as an airport!)

 

[me123]

With Emirates running the 380 from Birmingham they'd be less interested in Cardiff, I'd have thought. Emirates don't fly from Edinburgh because they're in Glasgow and Newcastle.

EK have recently scaled back operations at BHX (starting 1st September), going from three to two flights daily. Suggests that they aren't seeing a great deal of growth in the region. They'd know if there was a market at Cardiff (they'd have information on who flies from Birmingham and Heathrow who might be attracted to a Cardiff service) and presumably haven't seen fit to start a service there.

With Emirates, the Edinburgh market was served by passengers travelling to Glasgow and Newcastle (indeed, I understand that quite a lot of people from South East Scotland use the Newcastle service), so starting at EDI would have diluted the market at both airports. From what I've heard though, the recently introduced competition at EDI (by way of Etihad and Qatar) hasn't resulted in a significant decline for either route.

Just snagged a seat on KLM's last ever Fokker 70 operation from Humberside. I needed this to cheer me up after missing out on the Trislander flight.

29th October it is - all the F70s head back to AMS on that morning, and then to (possibly) scrap.

End of an era!

(Also a fine opportunity to scratch HUY as an airport!)

Might need to try and find a way to get one before they go - my very first planes were Fokkers and they're great wee aircraft. Will be sorely missed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just snagged a seat on KLM's last ever Fokker 70 operation from Humberside. I needed this to cheer me up after missing out on the Trislander flight.

29th October it is - all the F70s head back to AMS on that morning, and then to (possibly) scrap.

End of an era!

(Also a fine opportunity to scratch HUY as an airport!)

HUY is the only airport in Yorkshire I have flown out of!

(When I say flown out of, I was in the co-pilots seat )

 

[atillathehunn]

Just snagged a seat on KLM's last ever Fokker 70 operation from Humberside. I needed this to cheer me up after missing out on the Trislander flight.

29th October it is - all the F70s head back to AMS on that morning, and then to (possibly) scrap.

End of an era!

(Also a fine opportunity to scratch HUY as an airport!)

I think the chance to scratch a new airport and a final flight is a pretty good bargain! Is it a special flight or just the regular service flight? While it will be a shame to see them go, the Embraers that will replace them are a decent little plane.

HUY I think would be an interesting experience! I think just the Amsterdam and Aberdeen flights. Any other airport in the world with such an alliterative destination list?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the chance to scratch a new airport and a final flight is a pretty good bargain! Is it a special flight or just the regular service flight? While it will be a shame to see them go, the Embraers that will replace them are a decent little plane.

HUY I think would be an interesting experience! I think just the Amsterdam and Aberdeen flights. Any other airport in the world with such an alliterative destination list?

I am unsure if it'll be a normal flight or not - however it is a proper, scheduled rotation on general sale rather than a jolly. I have sent an email to KLM who, being known for good PR, will probably put on some sort of event, possibly at the Fokker Farm or a hangar somewhere. It seems unlikely they'll do nothing at all, as Fokker was for a very long time a Dutch firm and KLM had an extensive fleet of '50s, '70s and '100s.

As far as I can tell all the F70s are heading back on a very early rotation to AMS and should all be present in AMS by 0830.

The Embraers are fine aircraft and I like them a lot - more than any 737 or A320. However the F70 is superior in some ways, being much quieter (at the front, anyway) and feeling more spacious inside. They're also quirky, with a weird spoiler system, clamshell airbrake and capable of flap-less takeoffs.

HUY should be an experience. It has a Swissport lounge which I can get into on Priority Pass - the very idea of a VIP lounge at HUY on a bleary-eyed Sunday morning is in itself amusing, though it does still have a couple of oil and gas helicopter shuttles.

As an aside, I note Aurigny have had many requests via Facebook to run more charity pleasure flights with the Trislander and possibly from different locations. I hope they understand the demand from aviation nutjobs is high - £40 for charity, as they were offering from Guernsey, is nothing and I'd be happy to pay £100 or more should they do a 20-minute jolly from Southampton. 16 lots of £100 would more than cover their positioning costs from GCI.

 

[atillathehunn]

I am unsure if it'll be a normal flight or not - however it is a proper, scheduled rotation on general sale rather than a jolly. I have sent an email to KLM who, being known for good PR, will probably put on some sort of event, possibly at the Fokker Farm or a hangar somewhere. It seems unlikely they'll do nothing at all, as Fokker was for a very long time a Dutch firm and KLM had an extensive fleet of '50s, '70s and '100s.

As far as I can tell all the F70s are heading back on a very early rotation to AMS and should all be present in AMS by 0830.

The Embraers are fine aircraft and I like them a lot - more than any 737 or A320. However the F70 is superior in some ways, being much quieter (at the front, anyway) and feeling more spacious inside. They're also quirky, with a weird spoiler system, clamshell airbrake and capable of flap-less takeoffs.

HUY should be an experience. It has a Swissport lounge which I can get into on Priority Pass - the very idea of a VIP lounge at HUY on a bleary-eyed Sunday morning is in itself amusing, though it does still have a couple of oil and gas helicopter shuttles.

As an aside, I note Aurigny have had many requests via Facebook to run more charity pleasure flights with the Trislander and possibly from different locations. I hope they understand the demand from aviation nutjobs is high - £40 for charity, as they were offering from Guernsey, is nothing and I'd be happy to pay £100 or more should they do a 20-minute jolly from Southampton. 16 lots of £100 would more than cover their positioning costs from GCI.

Please do feedback! Their marketing team is good, I've worked with them before as a sub-contracter. It was a good vibe in the office. You're right about the quiet, though they always look quite unbalanced at the back, afraid that if I stood up and went down the back we'd flip over on the back wheels.

There's also the Fokker on the roof of one of the buildings at Schiphol (well I think it's an exhibit and not just a terrible parking job).

VIP lounge in HUY - chip bap and a mug of tea?! I have visions of the Yorkshire Airlines sketch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Embraers are fine aircraft and I like them a lot - more than any 737 or A320.

Agreed, the Embraers are delightful aircraft, particularly where airlines have aligned the seats with the huge windows. Would be nice if they'd scale them up just a little bit to put them into the 737/A320 market, perhaps 3+2 seating and a bit longer?

However the F70 is superior in some ways, being much quieter (at the front, anyway) and feeling more spacious inside. They're also quirky, with a weird spoiler system, clamshell airbrake and capable of flap-less takeoffs.

I've used F70s and 100s on AMS-BHX a number of times, I generally quite liked them, but they have one big flaw - no rear emergency exit. This makes me feel rather unsettled if I'm behind the overwing exits. I recognise the issue with rear engines, but some other kind of exit, e.g. downwards, really should have been provided. I just hate the idea of potentially being stuck behind a fire with no escape possible. I'm really surprised this was allowed - it wouldn't be in a commercial building! (And in a house you can go out of the window).

Aren't the 70s much newer than the 100s, anyway?

 

[atillathehunn]

Agreed, the Embraers are delightful aircraft, particularly where airlines have aligned the seats with the huge windows. Would be nice if they'd scale them up just a little bit to put them into the 737/A320 market, perhaps 3+2 seating and a bit longer?



I've used F70s and 100s on AMS-BHX a number of times, I generally quite liked them, but they have one big flaw - no rear emergency exit. This makes me feel rather unsettled if I'm behind the overwing exits. I recognise the issue with rear engines, but some other kind of exit, e.g. downwards, really should have been provided. I just hate the idea of potentially being stuck behind a fire with no escape possible. I'm really surprised this was allowed - it wouldn't be in a commercial building! (And in a house you can go out of the window).

Aren't the 70s much newer than the 100s, anyway?

Valid point on the emergency exit. Sadly won't be a concern much longer.

One option for a flight in a week or so is to book with a connection using the F100 from Swiss.

The F100s were producedfrom 1986 - 1997 and the F70 from 1992-1997. So, sort of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least 20 years old - didn't realise that!

 

[Crawley Ben]

Tickets for a new non-stop service between Perth and London have now gone on sale via Qantas Airlines. The journey will be on board the 787 Dreamliner, and is expected to take some 17.45 hours to complete (one way, the other is slightly shorter) link below for anyone whose interested.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...antas-non-stop-london-perth-tickets-now-sale/

Cheers

Ben

 

[AlterEgo]

Even in Business I would baulk at the idea of 17.5 hours on an aircraft.

 

[Antman]

Even in Business I would baulk at the idea of 17.5 hours on an aircraft.

That's a good time though, I'll certainly consider using it. Get the agony over with in one go rather than prolonging it with a stopover. I had assumed flights to Oz would have to stop somewhere to refuel and change crew but clearly not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a good time though, I'll certainly consider using it. Get the agony over with in one go rather than prolonging it with a stopover. I had assumed flights to Oz would have to stop somewhere to refuel and change crew but clearly not.

Each to their own, but a trip like that I would be planning with a genuine stopover, i.e. a couple of days in a place half way, perhaps different places in each direction.

 

[atillathehunn]

I hope they invest in good air fresheners. I can imagine the funk at the end might be quite powerful.

Different strokes for different folks. Many will favour the one-stop/two-stop option and continue to build the stop over as part of their holiday.

But there might be those who do it so frequently, or have time constraints, that they are sick of the stop over. There's apparently enough premium traffic to justify it. Like others, I probably wouldn't book it for myself, but I can see how people might like it. It's only a single daily 787, it's not going to put the competition out of business just yet.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It was mentioned in Air Britain News a couple of months ago that Qantas are looking at non stop Heathrow to Sydney in 2 - 3 years from now when the longer range version of the A350 ( I think it was ) becomes available.

I have said before, if I was going to Australia I would very much prefer to do it like this, non-stop, than have to get off and then back on again at some point en route.

 

[Antman]

Each to their own, but a trip like that I would be planning with a genuine stopover, i.e. a couple of days in a place half way, perhaps different places in each direction.

I completely understand that, personally I'd rather spend as much time in Australia as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely understand that, personally I'd rather spend as much time in Australia as possible.

I tend to do the same thing with trains, too, FWIW. I might break up Scotland-MKC at Manchester or Preston, say, perhaps for a proper meal, rather than go through. Though it obviously depends on how much time I've got. Maybe just the way I like to travel generally.

 

[atillathehunn]

I tend to do the same thing with trains, too, FWIW. I might break up Scotland-MKC at Manchester or Preston, say, perhaps for a proper meal, rather than go through. Though it obviously depends on how much time I've got. Maybe just the way I like to travel generally.

Sorry I'm just trying to wrap my head around the words 'proper meal' and 'Preston' being in the same sentence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry I'm just trying to wrap my head around the words 'proper meal' and 'Preston' being in the same sentence.

Last time I did it I had a pretty decent curry in one of the places down towards the uni.

 

[FQTV]

I do struggle to see how Emirates survive on the route. They bring a daily 777-300ER in, so 140, 000 ish seats per year. The population of Newcastle is only c. 280, 000. Did nearly 50% of the population fly Emirates?! I forgot about Air France. In which case yes it's quite diluted, though with KLM, SN Brussels, Flybe so is Cardiff/Bristol, though a larger metropolitan area.

Apologies for being late to the party on this one, but some thoughts on the economics of the Newcastle to Dubai route:

1. Sixish years ago, at an industry do, Emirates' GM said that the airline was uplifting over ten tonnes of high-value belly freight at least four times a week from Newcastle. That more than pays for the flight.
2. Emirates does a lot of opaque seat selling to the travel trade. For Newcastle, large numbers are fed through Hays Travel for bucket & spade trips to Dubai, as well as onward to Thailand etc. With no current options to the Sinai, and instability in Turkey, coupled with high prices in Spain and The Canaries, there's some increased demand to the Gulf for guaranteed sun. Look at check-in queues to observe the passenger profile.
3. Emirates does not, by any rational comparison to European/US/Asian carriers *need* to make money.
4. Emirates has more aircraft than they know what to do with and, although only obliquely relevant to Newcastle, only a certain number of airfields in the world which can handle them.
5. Even more obliquely, but relevant to Auckland and possibly Cardiff, Qatar is in a urinating contest with Emirates and will get far more PR out of a new route like Cardiff, than it would in going head-to-head at Newcastle. Conversely, they could subsequently pull out of Cardiff fairly quietly, but if they started Newcastle and then pulled-out, Emirates would naturally crow (possibly after the latter had dumped even more seats at laughable fares to scare QR off)

 

[atillathehunn]

Apologies for being late to the party on this one, but some thoughts on the economics of the Newcastle to Dubai route:

1. Sixish years ago, at an industry do, Emirates' GM said that the airline was uplifting over ten tonnes of high-value belly freight at least four times a week from Newcastle. That more than pays for the flight.
2. Emirates does a lot of opaque seat selling to the travel trade. For Newcastle, large numbers are fed through Hays Travel for bucket & spade trips to Dubai, as well as onward to Thailand etc. With no current options to the Sinai, and instability in Turkey, coupled with high prices in Spain and The Canaries, there's some increased demand to the Gulf for guaranteed sun. Look at check-in queues to observe the passenger profile.
3. Emirates does not, by any rational comparison to European/US/Asian carriers *need* to make money.
4. Emirates has more aircraft than they know what to do with and, although only obliquely relevant to Newcastle, only a certain number of airfields in the world which can handle them.
5. Even more obliquely, but relevant to Auckland and possibly Cardiff, Qatar is in a urinating contest with Emirates and will get far more PR out of a new route like Cardiff, than it would in going head-to-head at Newcastle. Conversely, they could subsequently pull out of Cardiff fairly quietly, but if they started Newcastle and then pulled-out, Emirates would naturally crow (possibly after the latter had dumped even more seats at laughable fares to scare QR off)

I doubt the bucket and spade tickets make an awful lot of money, so as you say I'm sure they have it sown up with the freight (assuming car parts out of the Nissan factory). Qatar won't want to come in and compete on bucket and spade, and Emirates has a bigger cargo network than do Qatar.

I've never examined the demographics and would be interested in a breakdown, but I suspect it's commercially sensitive.

I also couldn't imagine anywhere worse for a B&S holiday than Dubai!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I also couldn't imagine anywhere worse for a B&S holiday than Dubai!

Oh I don't know, I stayed at the Atlantis on honeymoon and it was glorious. Gloriously tacky, but glorious.

And it isn't much more expensive than some of the higher end resorts in the Canaries these days. And the travel time isn't much more.

I doubt the bucket and spade tickets make an awful lot of money, so as you say I'm sure they have it sown up with the freight (assuming car parts out of the Nissan factory).

It's probably all sorts, there's a small but niche oil and gas engineering sector in Newcastle these days, both GE and Siemens have a big presence.

I can't imagine Emirates sell many business class and first class seats at full value, mind. Though I'm not sure I'd pay full value to travel on their crappy business class seat on the 777.

 

[AlterEgo]

Newcastle does have an interesting clientele. As mentioned by Arctic Troll, there's a small but monied energy sector.

SAS operate a daily flight to Copenhagen which, I'm told, does very well just out of that market alone. BMI Regional also operate to Stavanger. These are small routes operated by regional jets with a core clientele.

 

[atillathehunn]

Newcastle does have an interesting clientele. As mentioned by Arctic Troll, there's a small but monied energy sector.

SAS operate a daily flight to Copenhagen which, I'm told, does very well just out of that market alone. BMI Regional also operate to Stavanger. These are small routes operated by regional jets with a core clientele.

I hadn't realised there still an energy sector there. Will probably fill up business class quite a bit.

Emirates doesn't sell First on the Newcastle run (from Arctic Troll's post, not yours). I can't imagine they'd fill it.

 

[atillathehunn]

Oh I don't know, I stayed at the Atlantis on honeymoon and it was glorious. Gloriously tacky, but glorious.

And it isn't much more expensive than some of the higher end resorts in the Canaries these days. And the travel time isn't much more.



It's probably all sorts, there's a small but niche oil and gas engineering sector in Newcastle these days, both GE and Siemens have a big presence.

I can't imagine Emirates sell many business class and first class seats at full value, mind. Though I'm not sure I'd pay full value to travel on their crappy business class seat on the 777.

Disneyland for oil sheikh's money. The hotel room in the middle of an aquariam as exhibit a in the case for the prosecution! I see how it's popular given the pretty much guaranteed sun and warmth, and better than the 4+ slog to the Canaries on a Ryanair 737. I would have thought the hassle of getting a pint there, though, might deter some of the more traditional clientele.

 

[gsnedders]

Disneyland for oil sheikh's money. The hotel room in the middle of an aquariam as exhibit a in the case for the prosecution! I see how it's popular given the pretty much guaranteed sun and warmth, and better than the 4+ slog to the Canaries on a Ryanair 737. I would have thought the hassle of getting a pint there, though, might deter some of the more traditional clientele.

I thought at most of the European-focused hotels booze flowed relatively freely? (That said, my understanding could be totally wrong. Being LGBT rather… lessens the appeal of the area to me.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought at most of the European-focused hotels booze flowed relatively freely? (That said, my understanding could be totally wrong. Being LGBT rather… lessens the appeal of the area to me.)

TBH, quite apart from the homophobia and other discrimination, the "filthy money" aspect of it appeals very little to me either. Can't see why I'd want to go there. Not one little bit of the ethos appeals to me, and if you just want to go somewhere hot there are a million other options.

If I wanted a stopover I'd be looking at South East Asia.

Only chance of seeing me there is a work trip were that necessary.