Aviation Discussion

[Butts]

Any company at the moment is going to need to ask if people will accept vouchers. If they have to refund their existence is in danger.

The railway is different because the Government has bankrolled them.

Even with IAG BA's owners sitting on a £9 Billion Cash Pile ?

 

[joncombe]

Easyjet have secured a £600million loan from the Government. Will be interesting to see if BA/IAG object. They seem to think they will survive without help and I suspect they may try the court route to try to stop such "bailouts" as they tried to for FlyBe in the hope every other airline fails and they can hoover up all the slots. Time will tell.

In the mean time I'm not very impressed with BA. I have one booking with them where the flights still ran so I can only get a voucher. Another that has been cancelled but I can't get a voucher without telephoning.

Meanwhile I made a booking (on the 19th September) for another flight on the 17th May 2020. Then 3 weeks later the flight was re-scheduled for 5 hours earlier so I cancelled it. I got the email confirming it was cancelled and I had been refunded on 10th October 2019. Then today I got an email for the same booking telling me my flight on the 31st May 2020 was cancelled and to fill in the form for a voucher. Except it was already cancelled and refunded months ago - and the flight was never for the 31st May 2020 anyway!

 

[gsnedders]

Even with IAG BA's owners sitting on a £9 Billion Cash Pile ?

That's EUR, not GBP as far as I'm aware, and includes pre-arranged loans. And they (IAG) likely have ~3.5B in liabilities from existing unflown bookings, plus the fact they have almost no revenue at the moment and they still have plenty of expenses outgoing (staff, aircraft parking, leased aircraft, fuel might be pre-committed…). What I saw reported was that they were burning through ~400M EUR *per week*, so 4.5B won't last long. Once they start getting the 80% of salary (up to £2.5k) for the furloughed UK employees that will help (but note BA are paying all furloughed employees 80% with no cap).

 

[darloscott]

Are Royal Mail still using Titan ? - They are normally one of the biggest users of overnight freight in the UK.

Royal Mail network in the UK mostly ran by West Atlantic now with a variety of 737's and ATP's, Titan run one 737 route (STN-BFS) and Loganair run the smaller routes with ATR72 and Saab 340's.

 

[Butts]

Royal Mail network in the UK mostly ran by West Atlantic now with a variety of 737's and ATP's, Titan run one 737 route (STN-BFS) and Loganair run the smaller routes with ATR72 and Saab 340's.

With none unfortunately in Royal Mail Livery ?

 

[Mills444]

With none unfortunately in Royal Mail Livery ?

Not that i'm aware of no.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Easyjet have secured a £600million loan from the Government. Will be interesting to see if BA/IAG object. They seem to think they will survive without help and I suspect they may try the court route to try to stop such "bailouts" as they tried to for FlyBe in the hope every other airline fails and they can hoover up all the slots. Time will tell.

In the mean time I'm not very impressed with BA. I have one booking with them where the flights still ran so I can only get a voucher. Another that has been cancelled but I can't get a voucher without telephoning.

Meanwhile I made a booking (on the 19th September) for another flight on the 17th May 2020. Then 3 weeks later the flight was re-scheduled for 5 hours earlier so I cancelled it. I got the email confirming it was cancelled and I had been refunded on 10th October 2019. Then today I got an email for the same booking telling me my flight on the 31st May 2020 was cancelled and to fill in the form for a voucher. Except it was already cancelled and refunded months ago - and the flight was never for the 31st May 2020 anyway!

BA have been notoriously shocking with the COVID-19 pandemic. They do not give a toss about their customers. They have been shunned on Twitter by several people, myself included, and for once they actually need to take the criticism and swallow the bullet.

 

[jfollows]

Jet2's Coronavirus (COVID-19): Latest updates and flight info. link (https://www.jet2.com/flights/incident) has now expunged any occurrence of the word "refund" and instead only says that "you can simply change your booking to a later departure date and you won't have to pay an admin fee". Previous versions were a bit coy but did include the "refund" word in a slightly vague context.

 

[Butts]

BA have been notoriously shocking with the COVID-19 pandemic. They do not give a toss about their customers. They have been shunned on Twitter by several people, myself included, and for once they actually need to take the criticism and swallow the bullet.

I think you ought to check what some other Airlines are doing before vilifying BA.

They are at least offering refunds for cancelled flights unlike some other big legacy Carriers who are illegally palming everyone off with vouchers.

As I understand it there is some flexibility on changing future flights as well.

If you really want examples of poor service check out what Travel Republic , Last Minute and some the others of that ilk are up to.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I think you ought to check what some other Airlines are doing before vilifying BA.

They are at least offering refunds for cancelled flights unlike some other big legacy Carriers who are illegally palming everyone off with vouchers.

As I understand it there is some flexibility on changing future flights as well.

If you really want examples of poor service check out what Travel Republic , Last Minute and some the others of that ilk are up to.

Not entirely true. BA were essentially punishing people who had booked in advance and could no longer travel by not refunding or allowing rebooking, yet were advertising "flexible" bookings for people deciding to fly into the epidemic. Other airlines were/still are slightly more on the ball. I've heard nothing but bad feedback from people I know who have flown with them; obviously just those opinions do not accurately represent their performance but its certainly an indicator. Was due to travel with them as part of a package on a three week tour of Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo and Hong Kong but I might just take up my custom with Emirates, Virgin or Air China instead, who I've used previously and have had no problems. Furthermore, the amount of copy and paste tweets they reply to their customers, whilst not remotely addressing the query in question, is untenable and needs addressing immediately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the amount of copy and paste tweets they reply to their customers, whilst not remotely addressing the query in question, is untenable and needs addressing immediately.

That's not just BA, that's every large business in the world. It is an awful practice, but they are by no means the only ones at it.

 

[ValleyLines142]

That's not just BA, that's every large business in the world. It is an awful practice, but they are by no means the only ones at it.

Easyjet have done it too, but certainly not to the extent BA have.

 

[thejuggler]

Jet2's Coronavirus (COVID-19): Latest updates and flight info. link (https://www.jet2.com/flights/incident) has now expunged any occurrence of the word "refund" and instead only says that "you can simply change your booking to a later departure date and you won't have to pay an admin fee". Previous versions were a bit coy but did include the "refund" word in a slightly vague context.

It was also stated yesterday there was no need to call the company as money for trips before the revised cut off date will be refunded within two weeks.

 

[packermac]

An interesting forecast of the state of the industry going forward
https://simpleflying.com/2020-1000-aircraft-retired/

Industry analyst for Cowen, Helane Becker, has today released her latest ‘Ahead of the Curve’ report for aviation. In it, she makes some startling predictions for the future of the industry, including that it will take up to six years to fully recover, and that US airlines will retire as many as 1,000 planes by the end of this year...

...Whichever viewpoint is on the money, the overarching message is clear for all to see. While we may see an uptick in aviation activities before the end of the year, it’s going to be a long, long time before we see the type of demand that was typical of pre-coronavirus, if it ever comes back at all.

 

[Airline Man]

Now there are far fewer passenger flights in the sky, other traffic is much more noticeable. There are large numbers of cargo flights in the sky, along with military traffic. There's even a drone patrolling the English channel along with a surveillance aircraft on the look out for illegal migrants.

 

[Bald Rick]

Now there are far fewer passenger flights in the sky, other traffic is much more noticeable. There are large numbers of cargo flights in the sky, along with military traffic. There's even a drone patrolling the English channel along with a surveillance aircraft on the look out for illegal migrants.

There’s more military traffic around than normal, I presume for supplies. And not just the RAF: an IL-76 flew over my place the other day making a complete racket even though it was at about 30,000 ft.

Also noticeable is how many flights are taking ‘short cut’ flight paths in the London area now that there is so much less in the air.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Virgin Australia has gone into Voluntary Administration with a near 5 Billion Australian Dollar debt pile, putting about 16,000 jobs at risk.

Virgin Atlantic have requested a £500 Million bailout from the Gov, which as clearly and seemingly fallen on death ears.

And 4 Swedish & Danish subsidiaries of Norwegian Airlines have gone bankrupt, leaving 4,700 jobs hanging in the balance.

I dread to think what is next.

 

[flymo]

Virgin Atlantic have requested a £500 Million bailout from the Gov, which as clearly and seemingly fallen on death ears.

Virgin Atlantic would be asking for a commercial loan under commercial conditions but the trouble is what would the loan be secured against ? Do Virgin Atlantic own their aircraft or are they simply leased, or have they already been used to secure other loans? They have already used the landing slots as collateral previously so how then would they secure the loan? Its incredibly difficult or most likely impossible for any commercial body to get any unsecured loan so why would Virgin Atlantic be any different ?

 

[nlogax]

Do Virgin Atlantic own their aircraft or are they simply leased, or have they already been used to secure other loans?

Mixed bag I believe - over half of their current fleet of 42 aircraft is leased.

 

[stantheman]

Are Jet 2 still doing cargo flights , they certainly used to from Edinburgh . Does anyone think Jet2 will go under as a holiday company if the shutdown lasts till the autumn ?

 

[jfollows]

According to The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...-oil-price-crash-as-short-term-latest-updates), Ryanair won't give you a cash refund now, only a voucher which can be placed "in the cash refund queue until the Covid-19 emergency has passed".

17:59
Miles Brignall
Ryanair has told passengers they will have to wait until “the Covid-19 emergency has passed” if they want a refund for a cancelled flight, writes Miles Brignall, Guardian money reporter.
Last month Europe’s biggest budget airline was offering passengers on cancelled flights the option of a refund within 20 working days, via its website.
The airline has been forced to ground most of its fleet due to the pandemic, although it is still running a few flights in and out of the UK, mostly out of Dublin and Stansted.
Passengers were initially delighted, but a Ryanair email sent out on Monday, seen by the Guardian, has heralded an about-turn.
Instead of the refund, passengers have been sent a link telling them how told how to use its vouchers to purchase Ryanair flights and other services over the next 12 months.
Passengers can still request a cash refund, it states, but the request will be placed “in the cash refund queue until the Covid-19 emergency has passed”.
“We highly recommend using the refund voucher as these are readily available and you can book flights on all Ryanair Group airlines in over 200 destinations,” says the airline.

Passengers who have tried to insist on the refund have told the Guardian that they have been left “waiting for hours to talk to a chatbot”, and it is impossible to get it processed.
Ryanair said: “For any cancelled flight, Ryanair is giving customers all of the options set out under EU regulations, including refunds.”
EU rules require the airlines to refund passengers on flights they cancel within seven days, but the airline industry across the board has ignored this over the last month, citing extraordinary circumstances.
EasyJet has since reintroduced the option of a cash refund online, while BA requires passengers to call the airline, which is near impossible at the moment.
The airlines can only offer credit vouchers with the consent of the passenger but this has not stopped the airlines and travel companies telling passengers, making this the only practical option.

This doesn't make me any less likely to use Ryanair in future than already, because I go out of my way to use just about any other airline if reasonably possible, and there are conversely many people who have little choice but to use them, so presumably they calculate they have little to lose and much cash (flow) to gain by refusing to refund money in the way they are doing.

 

[Airline Man]

There’s more military traffic around than normal, I presume for supplies. And not just the RAF: an IL-76 flew over my place the other day making a complete racket even though it was at about 30,000 ft.

Also noticeable is how many flights are taking ‘short cut’ flight paths in the London area now that there is so much less in the air.

Even saw a Russian Air Force An-124 fly over the UK on Planefinder. I kid you not. Normally you can hear those Russian machines a long time after they go over.

 

[joncombe]

Surprised to hear that Wizz Air are resuming some flights from Luton next Friday, including to Tenerife. Given most borders are not open and the requirement to avoid non essential travel I can't imagine who will be using them. I can't help wondering if avoiding having to give refunds might be another factor.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surprised to hear that Wizz Air are resuming some flights from Luton next Friday, including to Tenerife. Given most borders are not open and the requirement to avoid non essential travel I can't imagine who will be using them. I can't help wondering if avoiding having to give refunds might be another factor.

Wizz have barely stopped flying. There were still heading in / out of Luton (typically for Prague, Budapest) long after Easyjet grounded their fleet.

Having said that, I saw an Easyjet A320 taking off form Kuton last week, heading to Malta.

 

[xydancer]

After reading all the horror stories about British Airways and problems getting through on the phone to get a refund, I was shocked this morning to not even get into a queue. A real person picked the phone up straight away, was exceptionally pleasant, and had the whole thing dealt with in five minutes. I guess I just git lucky, but even so...

They really should make refunds an automatic on-line option, though. I had to cancel a flight with Cathay Pacific a few weeks ago. With them, you just click cancel on the Manage Booking page on the website, confirm that's what you want to do, and the refund is automatically processed. It takes less than a minute on-line and the money was back in my account inside a week. That's how it should be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't being done because refunding everyone is going to bankrupt them, so they're "nudging" you towards a credit note.

I'd rather they took a different line, though, making both easy but perhaps offering an uplift of 10% or 20% on the value if taking a voucher, commensurate with the risk of having what is essentially an investment in an airline in these odd times.

 

[Ploughman]

Without going back over 200 + pages.
Has anyone found this site that shows Military traffic?
https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=43c55f
Click on the U button to show Military traffic.

 

[gsnedders]

From Head for Points, leaked Citi estimates for how long major European airline groups can last under the current situation:

• Air France-KLM – 3 months
• easyJet – 15 months
• IAG (British Airways) – 8 months
• Lufthansa – already technically insolvent
• Ryanair – 18 months
• Wizz Air – 22 months

 

[Bald Rick]

From Head for Points, leaked Citi estimates for how long major European airline groups can last under the current situation:

Word in the street is that Virgin have 6 months or so.

 

[Aictos]

easyJet are doing deals for next Spring with the highlight being bags being available to add for 99p, no idea if anyone else here has got the email with this offer.

Any news on how Eurowings are doing btw???