They're a Lufthansa subsidiary, so fall under the technically insolvent banner of their parent.
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flymo
Established Member
I should have been back in UK these 2 weeks but of course had to cancel the plans. Qatar were incredibly slow in getting things resolved, weeks and weeks of no replies so eventually after around 6 weeks or asking, last week I gave up asking for a refund and went for the voucher option and lo and behold got a reply within 2 days. So anyway got the original fare + 10% but would have preferred an refund. They had changed the flight schedule 3 times since February without any email notification too and whilst I appreciate that things are fluid in the scheduling department and changes are still happening a simple email saying the flights had been changed would not have gone amiss. Shouldn't have to look by chance on their app when bored to see the schedule had changed. Bad show QR !!
Anyway got a year to use the voucher so maybe back in UK later his year or whenever things get something like normal.
Anyway got a year to use the voucher so maybe back in UK later his year or whenever things get something like normal.
BA Holidays is not BA, though. And legislatively and regulatory they're in very different positions.
Where did I say it was BA? THey may be in different positions but BA Holiday's refund versus how TUI and the likes are handling things are very different.
Though on BA I've had 4 domestic flights refunded this week without question after they cancelled them. No fawning off with credit vouchers.
It will be very interesting to see how premium travel and corporate travel in particular survives or adapts going forward.
Our corporate travel bill is eye watering and we’ve seen that with software we can be just as personal and efficient (creative with our zoom backgrounds) and we no longer need to spend so much on travel.
I appreciate some roles will still require that personal touch but I think we’ll see a sway away from corporate travel in general (and that includes train)
Our corporate travel bill is eye watering and we’ve seen that with software we can be just as personal and efficient (creative with our zoom backgrounds) and we no longer need to spend so much on travel.
I appreciate some roles will still require that personal touch but I think we’ll see a sway away from corporate travel in general (and that includes train)
Tazi Hupefi
Member
Wonder if you can help with a complicated flight issue...
Booked NZ1 and NZ2 to travel London Heathrow to Los Angeles (return) via a Travel Agent, (Travel Trolley). These flights should have departed in September 2020, later this year.
The airline was permanently terminating services on this route in October 2020 for commercial reasons, totally not connected to Covid-19.
I've now been advised that given the current situation, the route will be permanently withdrawn and will not start up again,. meaning my flights have been cancelled.
I have told them (repeatedly) they are legally obliged to re-route me at their expense, but they claim I should approach the travel agent only, who has been authorised to issue a credit voucher.
Travel Trolley have totally ignored me and are impossible to reach.
I paid by Debit MasterCard and did / do not have travel insurance.
Few things:
1) I am legally entitled to be re-routed as far as I can tell, at their expense. Who is responsible for arranging this, the airline or travel agent?
2) The credit voucher would be pointless given the airline will not be serving the UK in the future anyway. Nearest route be New York to New Zealand which is obviously no good to me!
3) Although a re-routing is my preference, and I'll do everything legally possible (please suggest options!) to get that right, if it comes down to it, how do I get my cash back? If I have to go to court am I claiming against the airline or travel agent? If airline, what do I do when they shut their UK business premises and company down and everything goes to New Zealand?
4) If either Air New Zealand or Travel Trolley refuse to re-route me, am I safe booking another return flight from London to Los Angeles (same date, closest time possible) and sending the bill to one of the two? If they didn't pay, then take to court?
All help appreciated.
Booked NZ1 and NZ2 to travel London Heathrow to Los Angeles (return) via a Travel Agent, (Travel Trolley). These flights should have departed in September 2020, later this year.
The airline was permanently terminating services on this route in October 2020 for commercial reasons, totally not connected to Covid-19.
I've now been advised that given the current situation, the route will be permanently withdrawn and will not start up again,. meaning my flights have been cancelled.
I have told them (repeatedly) they are legally obliged to re-route me at their expense, but they claim I should approach the travel agent only, who has been authorised to issue a credit voucher.
Travel Trolley have totally ignored me and are impossible to reach.
I paid by Debit MasterCard and did / do not have travel insurance.
Few things:
1) I am legally entitled to be re-routed as far as I can tell, at their expense. Who is responsible for arranging this, the airline or travel agent?
2) The credit voucher would be pointless given the airline will not be serving the UK in the future anyway. Nearest route be New York to New Zealand which is obviously no good to me!
3) Although a re-routing is my preference, and I'll do everything legally possible (please suggest options!) to get that right, if it comes down to it, how do I get my cash back? If I have to go to court am I claiming against the airline or travel agent? If airline, what do I do when they shut their UK business premises and company down and everything goes to New Zealand?
4) If either Air New Zealand or Travel Trolley refuse to re-route me, am I safe booking another return flight from London to Los Angeles (same date, closest time possible) and sending the bill to one of the two? If they didn't pay, then take to court?
All help appreciated.
I’m no expert here, but will give it a go:
1) the travel agent, as your transaction is with them.
2) the voucher would be good, as Air NZ code share with United, and also have an arrangement with Virgin Atlantic. You would be able to book an Air NZ fare from London to LA using Virgin. Other options may be possible with changes at NY, Chicago etc. United don’t fly London to LA, but they do go to San Francisco.
3) you’d be claiming against the agent, as your transaction is with them.
4) no, it’s unlikely such a claim would succeed.
5) (I know there is no 5). I strongly recommend travel insurance in future. You can get worldwide multi-trip insurance for less than £50.
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I would certainly recommend against option 4 unless you want to be out of pocket.
Option 2 may be possible if the rerouting is via another member or members of whatever alliance NZ is in this year, used to be Star I think.
Option 1 not sure but I suspect the agent should be handling this for you. I am not sure the airline have to reroute you, just give you your money back.
Not sure what the IATA ticket rules are these days as I retired from the industry in 2012.
However
Zerothebrake!
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I had a similar situation with a company called Travel Up - which I think may be an off shoot owned by the same person?
Anyway, my problem was a schedule change that I was unable to accept - KLM authorised a full refund but the company decided to hold onto the money.
If you look in their small print it will probably say something to the effect 'that any flight cancellations or alterations will not be refunded'.
In my case, it took around 20 emails batted back and forth before the money finally went back into my account - they like to play you along even though they are totally in the wrong and often keep your money for up to ten weeks in the hope that you will give up snd go away..
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but do keep on at them -and please don't phone them up as they'll have a 'call centre' at premium rates that will give you the run around too - they even use fake names and often cut you off so use email.
Air New Zealand have instructed Travel Trolley to issue a voucher so your point of contact can only be with the vendor and not the airline.
Good Luck and I hope that you get something back..
Anyway, my problem was a schedule change that I was unable to accept - KLM authorised a full refund but the company decided to hold onto the money.
If you look in their small print it will probably say something to the effect 'that any flight cancellations or alterations will not be refunded'.
In my case, it took around 20 emails batted back and forth before the money finally went back into my account - they like to play you along even though they are totally in the wrong and often keep your money for up to ten weeks in the hope that you will give up snd go away..
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but do keep on at them -and please don't phone them up as they'll have a 'call centre' at premium rates that will give you the run around too - they even use fake names and often cut you off so use email.
Air New Zealand have instructed Travel Trolley to issue a voucher so your point of contact can only be with the vendor and not the airline.
Good Luck and I hope that you get something back..
Air New Zealand had already announced the cessation of the London service before the outbreak, so it has been decided that the current suspension will become permanent. There won’t be a short resumption before the previously-planned cessation.
There’s no automatic right to re-route, I’m afraid. The cancellation of your specific flights has been made well before the deadline set under EU Regulation 261/2004.
EU261/2004 does provide for a full refund, to the original form of payment, within seven days, however this is the part of the regulation that airlines are pushing back on at the moment, preferring to issue vouchers instead. Twelve EU governments are actually petitioning the Commission to officially permit this.
As it stands, though, your flights are definitely cancelled, and the law hasn’t been changed, yet. A refund to the original form of payment remains due.
Although debit card transactions aren’t covered under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, you can still apply for a ‘chargeback’.
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org....#debit-card-payment-protection-and-chargeback
The fact that you’re in dispute with an operator like Travel Trolley could actually work in your favour here; if they’re as bad at responding to the card issuer as they are to you, then the latter is arguably more likely to unilaterally debit them and find in your favour.
Generally-speaking, though, if a booking is non-cancellable under normal circumstances, then travel insurance should be taken out the moment that the payment is committed to. It costs no more (for single trip’ insurance) than doing it the second before you depart but, statistically, claims are fore more likely pre-departure than after departure. The insurance industry likes people to think that travel insurance is effectively just medical cover while you’re away. That’s a tiny part of it; you’re far more likely to have to claim for a pre-departure cancellation owing to personal illness, family illness etc.
In this case, you would have needed very comprehensive cover to pay out owing to a pandemic, though, so the point is probably moot.
Secondly, and it bears repeating over and over: use Skyscanner and the like to work out who flies where and when, but when it comes to booking, book directly with the airline or, if there’s some glaring reason not to, then with one of the Expedia group companies, including ebookers etc.
You will find bad reviews about Expedia companies, of course, just as you will with the airlines themselves, but objectively they’re the only web operation with the maturity to have both clout with the airlines and to understand the value of their customers’ goodwill.
As an example, they have been at the forefront of pushing hotel companies into proactively cancelling and refunding stays, recently, batting for customers. The hotels are not happy, but they need the ongoing feed that they get from Expedia, so the customer seems to be benefiting.
In your case, if Travel Trolley or any other Skyscanner result (I’m assuming that you found TT through Skyscanner or the like) was cheaper than Air New Zealand direct, then there’s a reason for it.
Punitive additional change fees over and above those published as part of the fare rules; additional administration fees; small print denying any level of refund even when the fare rules permit it; denial of refund of taxes, fees and charges that may in fact be refundable under the fare rules, etc., etc., are all ways that these companies claw back the headline ‘saving’. And that’s all after they’ve often re-quoted the fare after you’ve clicked through to their website, claiming the original one has now sold out. By then you’ve forgotten that the fare that they’re now quoting is the one that the airline was correctly and transparently showing accurately but further down the original list of Skyscanner results.
Of course, there may be some other reason for having selected Travel Trolley, but the above may serve as useful general advice to someone else.
For now, I’d instigate a chargeback request with your card issuer. There’s nothing to lose in doing so.
Good luck!
On this one, at least under normal circumstances, there’d actually be a lot of options if Star Alliance or partner airline reroutes were permitted for rebooking.
Air New Zealand now flies to not just LA and San Francisco, but also to Vancouver, Chicago and Houston. They codeshare with Air Canada and Lufthansa, as well as United (the latter does actually operate Heathrow to LA as well, at least normally), and going ‘the other way’ they codeshare with Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines as well.
In any event, it’s a ‘commercial policy’ that would apply - the airline isn’t forced to do anything in terms of rebooking, but can also decide to rebook on an apparently completely unconnected carrier if they wish - through IATA and their interline agreements. They could, if they so wished, offer to rebook onto British Airways and American if they wanted to.
The side issue to rebooking at the moment, though, or a voucher issue, is that there’s no guarantee that New Zealand is going to permit travel from the U.K., or via particular transit points, or for particular nationalities or tested status, by the original dates of travel, or any published dates thereafter.
For that reason, I’d still be pushing for refund and/or chargeback first.
Tazi Hupefi
Member
Hi, out of interest, why do you think I'm not entitled to be re-routed at no extra charge?
The CAA says that I am:
What are my options?
If your cancelled long-haul flight is covered by EU law, your airline must let you choose between two options:
1. Receive a refund
You can get your money back for all parts of the ticket you haven’t used. For instance, if you have booked a return flight and the outbound leg is cancelled, you can get the full cost of the return ticket back from your airline.
2. Choose an alternative flight
If you still want to travel, your airline must find you an alternative flight. It’s up to you whether to fly as soon as possible after the cancelled flight, or at a later date that suits you. Airlines often refer to this as being ‘rerouted’.
Although most airlines will book you onto another of their flights to the same destination, if an alternative airline is flying there significantly sooner then you may have the right to be booked onto that flight instead. You can discuss this with your airline.
The reason I would refuse a voucher/refund is that the flights were a Black Friday deal, for £250 return with the best airline on that route, and there's no hope of getting a similar priced ticket.
The CAA says that I am:
What are my options?
If your cancelled long-haul flight is covered by EU law, your airline must let you choose between two options:
1. Receive a refund
You can get your money back for all parts of the ticket you haven’t used. For instance, if you have booked a return flight and the outbound leg is cancelled, you can get the full cost of the return ticket back from your airline.
2. Choose an alternative flight
If you still want to travel, your airline must find you an alternative flight. It’s up to you whether to fly as soon as possible after the cancelled flight, or at a later date that suits you. Airlines often refer to this as being ‘rerouted’.
Although most airlines will book you onto another of their flights to the same destination, if an alternative airline is flying there significantly sooner then you may have the right to be booked onto that flight instead. You can discuss this with your airline.
The reason I would refuse a voucher/refund is that the flights were a Black Friday deal, for £250 return with the best airline on that route, and there's no hope of getting a similar priced ticket.
Tazi Hupefi
Member
Sorry, I've now read Article 5! Looks like no re-route is obligated with 2 weeks notice.
scotrail158713
Established Member
This is an important thing to note. Every so often I have a read of Tripadvisor forums, and on the air travel one this is emphasised by regular posters again and again. Sadly stories like the one @Tazi Hupefi has posted here are frequent threads there, with the advice given to go direct with the airline in future.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say *either* book direct, *or* book a package holiday because if any part of it can't go ahead that's their problem to deal with, and if they go under you're ATOL protected.
Booking a single element (so not ATOL protected) through an agency seems to have only disadvantages, quite big ones in this situation.
Butts
Veteran Member
Tell me about it.....
I have a holiday to USA booked with Last Minute.com in August. Posters with longer memories may recall I had misgivings about it even last year before all this kicked off.
Flights are BA Club World / Marriott Hotel stay.
Look at Trust Pilot, MSE, Trip Advisor - they are underperforming their peers (and that's saying something) in relation to Refunds and Contactability.
Luckily I only paid a £400 deposit with the £3.7K balance due in July.
I am monitoring the situation closely and am prepared to write off the £400 rather than paying the balance and trying to get £4K back off them when it is cancelled.
They have some spurious cancellation fees which I am pretty sure are unenforceable due to being unfair terms and thus invalid.
Once they have your money you are at their mercy so I won't be handing another penny over to them unless there is a remarkable turnaround of the current situation.
As mentioned earlier in the thread Lufthansa is effectively insolvent.
The Lufthansa Group is losing around one million euros per hour, according to CEO Carsten Spohr. The German flag carrier’s CEO made the comments in a speech released in advance of the airline’s AGM next week.
Looks an eye watering position to be in, yet they want government money as long as the government has no say in any way concerned with running the airline. Talk about cake and eat it!
The Lufthansa Group is losing around one million euros per hour, according to CEO Carsten Spohr. The German flag carrier’s CEO made the comments in a speech released in advance of the airline’s AGM next week.
Looks an eye watering position to be in, yet they want government money as long as the government has no say in any way concerned with running the airline. Talk about cake and eat it!
There are actually quite a number of scenarios in which an agency (online or otherwise) can sometimes, if not often, provide advantageous options that airlines, or their websites, unfortunately can’t, so it’s not completely clear-cut.
It’s also the case that some agencies’ telephone service hours, or web chat facilities are better than the airlines’ that they represent. This is particularly the case for carriers such as Loganair, but also sometimes even for the likes of BA.
The key is to book with a reputable agency, online or otherwise.
It’s also (usually, but with exceptions) very easy to add one night’s accommodation to an Expedia Group website booking, which automatically triggers ATOL protection. Even a £5 a night hostel bed invokes it, and they’ll email the ATOL certificate shortly after booking.
Note that this only works if the outbound and inbound flights are within 28 days of each other.
As a default, though, I’d always try to book direct with the operating airline, everything else being equal and especially if you think that changes may be necessary.
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I’ve long doubted Lufthansa’s strategic abilities, ever since they comprehensively ballsed-up almost everything that they did with bmi, and practically gifted British Airways the UK market dominance that it has hitherto enjoyed.
A lot of folks will paint a picture of BA ruthlessly running-down competition; the truth is that the competition has often been a pigeon flying into a plate glass window in the sky that BA just sits unremarkably under, waiting for the next hapless carrier to drop, still disbelievingly stunned, into its plodding, matronly, grudging lap.
It then gives it a good scrub, tells it off for trying to be something it’s not, puts it on a diet, makes it lose weight, dresses it in grey flannels or a pinafore and sends it out to earn its keep.
BA are now talking about Not flying from Gatwick again. I've also seen chatter that they may bring forward the 747 retirement (currently scheduled for 2024) and just not use them in service again.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
Not sure if this has been reported but one of Qatar Airways' 787s has had a minor bump with an A350 on Thursday in Doha during a pretty violent storm. Looks relatively minor and no injuries reported.
https://samchui.com/2020/05/01/qatar-airways-b787-collides-with-parked-a350-in-doha/
https://samchui.com/2020/05/01/qatar-airways-b787-collides-with-parked-a350-in-doha/
Aictos
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- 28 Apr 2009
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Question, I've got a flight booked with BA from Gatwick in October so if BA pulls out of Gatwick and cancels all operations there then what happens with me and my flight?
Would they refund in full or put me on a flight from Heathrow?
Normal policy would be to offer both if there’s availability. London City would usually be offered too, if they also have a route.
darloscott
Member
As I mentioned in a post on another thread BA are not leaving Gatwick - the memo to crew certainly suggests only around 700 of the 1600 or so cabin crew based there will be at risk. No doubt it will be a slimmed down operation but BA can't afford to let Gatwick go to one of their major competitors (i.e. easyJet) otherwise 2 years down the line Heathrow could be at risk from competition at Gatwick
Trouble is though that to protect the more valuable slots at Heathrow (when use them or loose them is reintroduced) that may not all be required going forward by the current scale of the LHR operation routes may need to be transferred from LGW. When I was at BA LGW was always a necessary evil due to the slot constraints of LGW.
From an Engineering and Operations point of view it not only increased the cost pain it was a pain in the a**e
PG Wodehouse would have been proud of that prose!
WatcherZero
Established Member
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- 25 Feb 2010
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Warren Buffet has just dumped his entire holding in US airlines, 11% stake in Delta Air Lines, 10% of American Airlines, 10% of Southwest Airlines, and 9% of United Airlines. That's going to send a message to the market.
The shares were sold over the last month so the market has been aware of it a while. He just mentioned it at his AGM yesterday hence the headlines. No doubt it will have an effect on share prices though.
Here's an article from a month ago of WB selling airline stocks
Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway sells part of Delta, Southwest airline stakes
Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway said on Friday it sold about 18% of its stake in Delta Air Lines and 4% of its holdings in Southwest Airlines this week, as the coronavirus pandemic drives the airline industry into perhaps its biggest crisis ever.
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matacaster
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So, you are saying that Heathrow, which is desperately trying to build a third runway as it has no contingency at all in 'normal' pre-coronavirus operations, should ensure that there is no contingency on the two runways it has by allowing BA and others to consolidate flights there? You couldn't make it up. Heathrow has the opportunity to ENSURE that it has say 10% free capacity in future without any new runway. The third runway will not be needed anyway as fewer people will fly as a result of lack of cash, businesses will use more video conferencing, which works pretty well and costs sod all compared to freeloading round the world at company expense.
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